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Sansa and the Savage Giant


Chris Mormont

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I haven't read those chapters in a while (can I still get them?) but off the top of my memory, there does seem to be a theme there, albeit a smaller one compared to the whole picture. 

I have been wanting to do an Arianne reread for a while now. This maybe my spark ;)

I am glad I could light your fire. ;)

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On 11/07/2017 at 7:50 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And whilst I agree that Sansa lies. (thank the gods or she'd be long ago dead.) I disagree that the lies are self-comforting, they are pure survival.

    So her lies are not self-comforting but pure survival? Are you sure?

   How can you explain that when she keeps her lies even when not in the presence of any Baratheon or Lannister. She knows Mycah was innocent and also that he had been killed by the Hound and says to Arya that is is not the same thing and that the Hound the is Prince Joffrey's sworn shield and adds "Your butcher's boy attacked the Prince."

   Unbelievable. She knows the Hound killed an innocent human being; she does not care; calls him a butcher's boy like he has no name and has no meaning whatsoever which goes against the sample of her father (Ned sometimes called even Old Nam to sit by him at the table) and lies directly in her sister's face, which she knows was there and knows the truth, to wit, Mycah did not attack Joffrey.

    GoT quote =>  Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

 

  Afterward, she goes on and tells Araya that after she becomes Queen her sister will have no choice but to bow to her. 

  Her life was not in jeopardy. What an insensitive snob liar noble whore she is!  

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4 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Wrong.

Sansa did have a good option. Give up her dream of being Joffrey's Queen and be loyal to her family. Her dreams are not more important than her family members. Why would she want to be the wife of someone abusive like Joffrey anyway. She saw how he treated Mycah.

Sansa's decision was not smart. It was foolish and short sighted. She abandoned her family members to curry favor with Cersei and Joffrey. But as you've stated Joffrey already hates her because she saw his true face. Cersei rewarded her silence by demanding that her pet be killed. Her gambit failed because she failed to understand the true natures of the people that she was dealing with.

Sansa shows herself to be a liar and a hypocrite. She first states that she didn't know what happened. 

Then she changes her story when Cersei demands Lady's death.

So now that Sansa is at risk of losing her pet, she decides to push all the fault of the incident unto Nymeria and Arya. Not a word about how Joffrey got drunk and assaulted Mycah. This shows her initial claim of not knowing what happened to be a lie. She feels that if she abandons her family even more, perhaps Cersei will take mercy on her. Of course, the end result is that her direwolf is killed and Sansa becomes the only Stark child without a direwolf, the symbol of their house. It makes sense after all. If Sansa wants to be a Lannister/Baratheon so badly, why should she have a direwolf.

You win.

I expect anymore that anytime "Arya" is mentioned, that the broken record player will start up again and take the most reductionist view of everything. I've been wary of of even typing her name because of this and whether I bring her up depends on how patient I'm feeling at any given time. I'm sure you've noticed that there aren't many Arya topics on the forum.

I've leaned my lesson. Thanks. I won't bring her up anymore or comment on any of the (rare) topics about Arya.

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41 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You win.

I expect anymore that anytime "Arya" is mentioned, that the broken record player will start up again and take the most reductionist view of everything. I've been wary of of even typing her name because of this and whether I bring her up depends on how patient I'm feeling at any given time. I'm sure you've noticed that there aren't many Arya topics on the forum.

I've leaned my lesson. Thanks. I won't bring her up anymore or comment on any of the (rare) topics about Arya.

Alright. As long as your Sansa apologism doesn't distract you from the fact that she's one of the most disliked and controversial main characters. You should expect to find many people not agreeing with your opinion on her. No need to get upset about it.

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3 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Alright. As long as your Sansa apologism doesn't distract you from the fact that she's one of the most disliked and controversial main characters. You should expect to find many people not agreeing with your opinion on her. No need to get upset about it.

I don't have a problem with substantive disagreements as others who have commented on this thread can attest.

I do have a problem with broken record players who view everything in black and white and derail the thread into hostile and childish playground arguments at the expense of more interesting discussion. If "Sansa apologist" means I don't see her as the devil and that I view most characters excepting Ramsey/Joff/Euron types as fallible and able to make mistakes, then I'm a Sansa apologist.

I'll no longer reply to you (but will continue to reply to others who have disagreed in a more substantive manner) and as I come on here to enjoy myself, your brand of Arya Apologism has succeeded in further making Arya into "no one" for me in regards to this forum.

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I don't have a problem with substantive disagreements as others who have commented on this thread can attest.

I do have a problem with broken record players who view everything in black and white and derail the thread into hostile and childish playground arguments at the expense of more interesting discussion. If "Sansa apologist" means I don't see her as the devil and that I view most characters excepting Ramsey/Joff/Euron types as fallible and able to make mistakes, then I'm a Sansa apologist.

I'm blocking you (not others who have disagreed in a more substantive manner) and as I come on here to enjoy myself, your brand of Arya Apologism has succeeded in further making Arya into "no one" for me in regards to this forum.

I thought you said you had given up arguing with your previous post. Seems not. I suppose your previous statement also applies to yourself. Going back on your own statements is quite Sansa like behavior. No wonder you defend her betrayals of her family as smart decisions.

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The reader has likes and dislikes, agreements and disagreements this in turn becomes a mirror onto the reader!

Of course Sansa isn't a monster or a devil like Joffrey, Euron or Ramsay. But she has a common theme of disloyalty to her family. In the first book, she betrays both Arya and Ned to achieve her dream of being queen. Then in the second book, she denounces her family as traitors to survive at court. And in the more recent books she appears to place her and Littlefinger's ambitions over the well being of her cousin Sweetrobin, a seven year old boy.

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Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

It's this current theme of familial disloyalty that Sansa is consistently criticized for. Not her passivity or her femininity. Her choosing to side against her family isn't smart behavior as evidenced by the fact that it hasn't worked out for her and would never have worked out due to the natures of the people she abandoned her family for. Hopefully, she'll chose to help protect her cousin from Littlefinger in the next book to show that she's learned from her mistakes.

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12 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa did have a good option. Give up her dream of being Joffrey's Queen and be loyal to her family. Her dreams are not more important than her family members. Why would she want to be the wife of someone abusive like Joffrey anyway. She saw how he treated Mycah.

Yeah she had a good option.but at that time she was a self-centered naive 11 year old who was obsessed with songs and stories.

Ned was not a selfish and naive preteen though. he saw what a little monster Joffrey was but he didn't break the betrothal. when children are being stupid, adults should take matters in their own hands. he should've confronted Sansa about her lie but he pretended like it had never happened. he talked to Arya about family and loyalty but not to Sansa who really needed to hear it. she was the one stuck between two families not Arya. Sansa failed his father and sister and Ned failed them both.

 

4 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Then in the second book, she denounces her family as traitors to survive at court.

What was the good option in that situation?

 

4 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

And in the more recent books she appears to place her and Littlefinger's ambitions over the well being of her cousin Sweetrobin, a seven year old boy.

She is the only one who actually cares about him. he keeps kissing her against her will, nuzzling her breasts, wetting her mattress, throwing food,ordering and whining but she is always patient with him.

and no. she is not poisoning him. there is no textual evidence for this theory. she knows Sweetsleep is not harmless but she also knows that it's the only effective treatment for his seizures.

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10 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

    So her lies are not self-comforting but pure survival? Are you sure?

   How can you explain that when she keeps her lies even when not in the presence of any Baratheon or Lannister. She knows Mycah was innocent and also that he had been killed by the Hound and says to Arya that is is not the same thing and that the Hound the is Prince Joffrey's sworn shield and adds "Your butcher's boy attacked the Prince."

   Unbelievable. She knows the Hound killed an innocent human being; she does not care; calls him a butcher's boy like he has no name and has no meaning whatsoever which goes against the sample of her father (Ned sometimes called even Old Nam to sit by him at the table) and lies directly in her sister's face, which she knows was there and knows the truth, to wit, Mycah did not attack Joffrey.

    GoT quote =>  Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

 

  Afterward, she goes on and tells Araya that after she becomes Queen her sister will have no choice but to bow to her. 

  Her life was not in jeopardy. What an insensitive snob liar noble whore she is!  

1

OK, I was going to treat your rather petty stab at continuing this with respect. 

After all, I'd have to concede that there is an element of self-soothing in this particular scene. But I don't think her having to do that is an abnormal thing. It is in line with what has happened and the ages of the characters involved. Totally normal behaviour in the circumstances. 

But then you went and said that last sentence and Woah! 

You disgust me. I mean really actually disgust me. You've really shown yourself up here in a deeply unpleasant and repulsive light. You've shown exactly what your problem with Sansa is; Misogyny pure and simple. 

 I would ask you to reflect upon your choice of words but sadly I doubt that you have the intellect to understand the problem with using the word whore to describe an 11-year-old girl. Or a woman full stop actually. But seriously she's fucking 11!

The other descriptors you chose are problematic in regards to your intent and the over simplification of their use, but all in some way do apply to her, she is being insensitive to Arya, as Arya is being to her, But they're pre teen siblings and that is bread and butter at their ages.

Snob, yes she is, and that is OK. She's a child and has simply conformed to the society which she has been born in, her story arc very much involves leaving that snobbishness behind and growing into a more accepting person. As she begins to understand the world around her and that things are not as she has been taught. That is demonstrated by her relationship with the Hound, and her time as Alayne Stone.

Liar, yes she lies, but anyone with a modicum of maturity understands that lying is sometimes necessary. And that her lie in this instance has, in fact, helped her sister, because despite Arya's anger at Sansa not telling the truth had she done so Arya would have been in far deeper trouble with Cersei.  And her ability to lie is good,  it has gone on to keep her alive! The Starks seriously lack an astute political mind and the ability to manipulate and lie convincingly. Their House needs a good liar. It is a good thing that she is capable of growing to fill that role.

But Whore! really? That is Pathetic. 

Some people on this forum are immature and talk total nonsense. I'm sure if you stick to discussion with them you will be happy.

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7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

I do have a problem with broken record players who view everything in black and white and derail the thread into hostile and childish playground arguments at the expense of more interesting discussion. If "Sansa apologist" means I don't see her as the devil and that I view most characters excepting Ramsey/Joff/Euron types as fallible and able to make mistakes, then I'm a Sansa apologist.

 

 

:agree:  

I completely agree.  I dislike the term Sansa apologist too, as it really personifies the immaturity of those who use it.  I do wish that we could discuss the two sisters without the constant derailment into Sansa bashing.  I'm really put off by the glee with which some posters love to hate her and seek to hold up a couple of poor choices as proof of her badness. No other character is held to the same impossible standards or scrutinised over such small mistakes.  

Both actions only hurt herself. The Trident resulted in her wolfs death and going to Cersei only resulted in her own captivity.  Both things which had to happen in order for her own and Arya's story arc to play out as the author intended I might add.

 Arya could no more take Nymeria to KL than Sansa could Lady, and had Sansa not told Cersei about the ship Arya would not have been sought out by the KG while at her "dancing" lesson. I doubt she'd have been as able to escape had she been without Syrio's help when Cersei sent them for her.

Sansa's mistakes serve both girls stories. Things really could not have played out differently if we were to have the two girls end up in the correct places for their individual stories.  

The fervour with which some people bay for her blood over these minor and narratively required mistakes is rather disturbing and implies a deep problem at the heart of how many view her. 

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21 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

:agree:  

I completely agree.  I dislike the term Sansa apologist too, as it really personifies the immaturity of those who use it.  I do wish that we could discuss the two sisters without the constant derailment into Sansa bashing.  I'm really put off by the glee with which some posters love to hate her and seek to hold up a couple of poor choices as proof of her badness. No other character is held to the same impossible standards or scrutinised over such small mistakes.  

Both actions only hurt herself. The Trident resulted in her wolfs death and going to Cersei only resulted in her own captivity.  Both things which had to happen in order for her own and Arya's story arc to play out as the author intended I might add.

 Arya could no more take Nymeria to KL than Sansa could Lady, and had Sansa not told Cersei about the ship Arya would not have been sought out by the KG while at her "dancing" lesson. I doubt she'd have been as able to escape had she been without Syrio's help when Cersei sent them for her.

Sansa's mistakes serve both girls stories. Things really could not have played out differently if we were to have the two girls end up in the correct places for their individual stories.  

The fervour with which some people bay for her blood over these minor and narratively required mistakes is rather disturbing and implies a deep problem at the heart of how many view her. 

Sansa apologism is the use of lies and mistruths to defend or justify Sansa's actions on the Trident or her decision to tell her father's plans to Cersei. Sansa's actions in going to Cersei harmed not just her, but also Arya and Jeyne Poole as well. She sealed the fate of Arya as a fugitive and Jeyne Poole as prisoner of Littlefinger. She also harmed her father and her family by giving herself as a hostage to Cersei. It was a serious mistake that she has also come to regret making. 

Martin directly stated that Sansa knew exactly when they were leaving and also the location of Arya.

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She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

Also all mistakes that drive the plot are  "narratively required" mistakes. Does that mean we can't criticize Ned, Robert, Rhaegar, or other characters for their mistakes because they drove the plot? Of course not. Characters are defined by their actions. Whether a character is judged as good, bad, neutral, nice, smart or a myriad of other traits is based on their choices.

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19 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa apologism is the use of lies and mistruths to defend or justify Sansa's actions on the Trident or her decision to tell her father's plans to Cersei. Sansa's actions in going to Cersei harmed not just her, but also Arya and Jeyne Poole as well. She sealed the fate of Arya as a fugitive and Jeyne Poole as prisoner of Littlefinger. She also harmed her father and her family by giving herself as a hostage to Cersei. It was a serious mistake that she has also come to regret making. 

Martin directly stated that Sansa knew exactly when they were leaving and also the location of Arya.

Also all mistakes that drive the plot are  "narratively required" mistakes. Does that mean we can't criticize Ned, Robert, Rhaegar, or other characters for their mistakes because they drove the plot? Of course not. Characters are defined by their actions. Whether a character is judged as good, bad, neutral, nice, smart or a myriad of other traits is based on their choices.

Sigh. 

Lies and mistruths, really?

Is it a lie that Sansa pretended not to remember what happened at the Trident? is it a mistruth that Had she told the events as they did happen Arya would have been in a heap of trouble? Is it a lie that had she told the truth her relationship with her future husband would be damaged? Is it a mistruth that damaging her relationship with her future husband and King would be a BIG mistake? Is it a lie that Ned had heard her version of events already and had not chosen to break her betrothal? is it a mistruth that she, therefore, had a choice between upsetting her sister who likely would eventually get over it and forgive her or fucking herself over with real long term consequences? 

And is it untrue that had Sansa not told Cersei about the plan to send herself and Arya and probably Jeyne home, that they might have caught that ship and ended up at the hands of Ramsey in the next book, or that had Sansa not known exactly where Arya would be that Cersei may have sent the KG for her at a different time, thus she would not have had Syrio to assist her escape? Is that a lie? 

Again Sigh, if only people devoted as much venom to tearing into those characters as they do Sansa? If only they held adults to the same exacting standards as they do a child?  We do of course discuss their mistakes too, but I challenge you to prove that they receive the same level of absolute loathing as a result of them? Because I've been around here a while and they really do not. Not to mention the small factor of their mistakes having monumental and much more far reaching effects. 

Oh! and them being fucking grown ups! 

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32 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa's actions in going to Cersei harmed not just her, but also Arya and Jeyne Poole as well. She sealed the fate of Arya as a fugitive and Jeyne Poole as prisoner of Littlefinger. She also harmed her father and her family by giving herself as a hostage to Cersei. It was a serious mistake that she has also come to regret making. 

So you think she is indirectly responsible for the things that happened to Arya, Jeyne, her father and others. right? she is responsible for other people's cruelty and villainy. Arya is your favorite character. right? now I have a question for you, is Arya indirectly responsible for the Raid on Saltpans? she was the one who saved Rorge's and Biter's life. She knew they were monsters but she took pity on them and helped them. later they raped and tortured and slaughtered innocent people. Is Arya responsible for what happened to those innocent people or not? in my book she is not. but I want to know your opinion.

 

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Oh, no Winters Daughter. lol Only Sansa is held accountable for other adult peoples actions. And Arya is not responsible for anything at all, not Mycah because she ought to have stuck to the social strata she was supposed to hang out with, not back chatted the Prince etc.  Only Sansa is held accountable for the actions of others. 

I, of course, do not in anyway blame Arya for what happened at the Trident because I understand that she was a child and that she could never foresee the outcome of choosing to play a sex inappropriate game with a class inappropriate friend. 

I think she probably did know there could be consequences to what she did and said to Joffrey, but I don't blame her for the results because again she's a child. And does not have the life experience at that stage to fully understand the seriousness of her actions. 

 

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Sansa is responsible for 

31 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

So you think she is indirectly responsible for the things that happened to Arya, Jeyne, her father and others. right? she is responsible for other people's cruelty and villainy. Arya is your favorite character. right? now I have a question for you, is Arya indirectly responsible for the Raid on Saltpans? she was the one who saved Rorge's and Biter's life. She knew they were monsters but she took pity on them and helped them. later they raped and tortured and slaughtered innocent people. Is Arya responsible for what happened to those innocent people or not? in my book she is not. but I want to know your opinion.

 

Yes, Arya is partly responsible for the acts committed by Rorge and Biter because she was the one who saved them. Their later actions are only possible because of Arya's own actions. Arya's mercy to those monsters was cruelty to the innocent people they hurt.

At least she does atone for this mistake by killing Iggo and his band through Nymeria. I don't believe that Arya is a perfect person or character. She is human and makes mistakes as any good character does. I admire Arya for her devotion to her home and her family. 

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2 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

At least she does atone for this mistake by killing Iggo and his band through Nymeria.

Sansa has atoned for her mistake too. in Trident she turned a blind eye on Joffrey's cruelty but in his name day tourney she did not. she saved a stranger from Joffrey although she was afraid of him. before the Riot of KL she stopped him from riding down an innocent woman. in ASOS she tried to warn Margaery about his true nature although it was a great risk.

2 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

I don't believe that Arya is a perfect person or character. She is human and makes mistakes as any good character does. I admire Arya for her devotion to her home and her family. 

I have the same opinion about Sansa. she is not perfect and makes mistakes. she is flawed like any other well-written character.

But I don't hold the girls responsible for Cersei's, LF's, Rorge's and Biter's actions mainly because they were children. they made big mistakes but they were too young to fully understand the importance of their decisions and the possible consequences of their actions.

I admire Sansa for her resilience and patience. she learns from her mistakes and has became a better person in the course of the story. She was not a likable character in the first book, but the writer has done an amazing job developing her.

I admire Arya too, she is my second favorite character.

 

 

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On 6/29/2017 at 8:15 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I just can't get onboard with Sansa and LF going north.  Book wise it just makes no sense, and would be seemingly logistically impossible to do so with an army.

And yet we have that line about different roads leading to the same castle. So, one can argue that the Stark children will eventually gather in Winterfell again.

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2 hours ago, Risto said:

And yet we have that line about different roads leading to the same castle. So, one can argue that the Stark children will eventually gather in Winterfell again.

But when will she go north? And if she does, what will the political situation look like? Does she truly lead the knights of the Vale to war in the North? In winter? 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But when will she go north? And if she does, what will the political situation look like? Does she truly lead the knights of the Vale to war in the North? In winter? 

We know LF wants her to rule The North so it is a reasonable assumption that he planned to use the army he commands and march North. Perhaps Harry will lead the army... There are poasibilities. It is not like no one ever marched North in winter.

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16 minutes ago, Risto said:

We know LF wants her to rule The North so it is a reasonable assumption that he planned to use the army he commands and march North. Perhaps Harry will lead the army... There are poasibilities. It is not like no one ever marched North in winter.

So, is that a yes?

That Petyr wants Sansa to rule the North is an assumption based on what he told Sansa to keep her playing his game. It might be true, or not.

If Sansa is going to lead the knights of the Vale to war in the North, do you think Petyr will still be a player when that happens, or will he have been removed the game? 

Or do you think Sansa is headed in some other direction? 

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@Risto & @Lost Melnibonean  

I think that she and Baelish and the vale Knights (at least a portion) will head north after Stannis takes WF, the boltons are dead and he (stannis) dies of his injury's leaving a power vacuum in the North which he will just find too irresistible. 

Upon hearing that Stannis has taken the castle and promptly died of his wounds I think they travel north, and she is for a period the Stak in WF. I think also that this is how she manages to kill him, in WF she holds all the power. And can tell her guards to arrest him, when she decides she wishes to do so. As I've said before in this thread I think this could come about either because Jon arrives from the wall after hearing his sister now holds WF. To ask for help for the watch and tells her what Jeyne Poole will tell him when she arrives at the wall in TWOW. Or after LF attempts to rape her (Sansa0 which I am not keen on but have to acknowledge has some foreshadowing in the text. 

Once she has had him arrested she can conduct a trial and execute him. 

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