Angel Eyes

Blackfyre claim...

75 posts in this topic

On 7/4/2017 at 6:21 PM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Female line was banished from succesion. When Aegon II died, Viserys I male line died and the claim passed to his brother's male line. That's how Rhaenyra's sons became kings. 

Daemon could become king only if Aegon IV named him his heir or if he won the war against Daeron II.

Is that stated explicitly anywhere, or just implied? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is that stated explicitly anywhere, or just implied? 

That is neither implied nor explicitly stated but flat-out wrong. Ran told us Aegon II himself named Aegon the Younger and his daughter Jaehaera joint heirs because Corlys Velaryon forced him - in exchange for the support of the Velaryon fleet - to pardon his nephew and betroth his daughter to Rhaenyra's son. Alicent was very pissed about that but they couldn't help it.

We'll get the full story of that in 'Fire and Blood, Volume 1' or in some garbled form if there is some sort of anthology containing part of the Regency story prior to the publication of that book.

In a sense the rise of Aegon III is a recognition of Rhaenyra's claim as well since both bloodlines were supposed to united there. That ended, of course, when Unwin Peake had Queen Jaehaera murdered. The fact that Aegon the Younger was also the son of Prince Daemon apparently didn't play into this at all. Especially not for Aegon II who sure as hell would have preferred to execute Aegon the Younger and name his daughter Jaehaera his heir for the time being, until his Baratheon bride gave him new sons.

As to the general 'female line claim thing':

If Daena's claim had played any role in the assessment of the claim of Daemon Blackfyre one really wonders that the Great Council of 233 AC did not make Prince Maegor king. After all, on his father's side he was the son of the second son of King Maekar, but on his mother's side he was the son of Princess Daenora, the youngest daughter of Prince Rhaegel, third son of Daeron the Good. He had (more) Targaryen blood and he was descended from the senior branches in comparison to Prince Aegon (who had a Dayne for a mother and a Blackwood as his wife).

The thing is - men like Daemon Blackfyre don't need their great pedigree as reasons why they should be king. And men cheering and following men like him don't care about the claims of women. Sure, he was the son of a princess, but what made him as great as he allegedly was his personality, his charisma, his looks, his skills at arms, etc. And, of course, that he was the son of the king. That was the crucial part. Not that he was also the son of a princess who could have been queen a couple of decades ago if she hadn't been imprisoned by her royal brother or dishonored herself and the royal family by giving birth to a bastard. That's not exactly something that makes you popular with the people. It makes you look like a whore.

Nobody cared about the fact that Robert Baratheon is the son of Cassana Estermont. That did neither help nor hinder him in his quest for the throne. Because people thought he was such a great guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is neither implied nor explicitly stated but flat-out wrong. Ran told us Aegon II himself named Aegon the Younger and his daughter Jaehaera joint heirs because Corlys Velaryon forced him - in exchange for the support of the Velaryon fleet - to pardon his nephew and betroth his daughter to Rhaenyra's son. Alicent was very pissed about that but they couldn't help it.

We'll get the full story of that in 'Fire and Blood, Volume 1' or in some garbled form if there is some sort of anthology containing part of the Regency story prior to the publication of that book.

In a sense the rise of Aegon III is a recognition of Rhaenyra's claim as well since both bloodlines were supposed to united there. That ended, of course, when Unwin Peake had Queen Jaehaera murdered. The fact that Aegon the Younger was also the son of Prince Daemon apparently didn't play into this at all. Especially not for Aegon II who sure as hell would have preferred to execute Aegon the Younger and name his daughter Jaehaera his heir for the time being, until his Baratheon bride gave him new sons.

As to the general 'female line claim thing':

If Daena's claim had played any role in the assessment of the claim of Daemon Blackfyre one really wonders that the Great Council of 233 AC did not make Prince Maegor king. After all, on his father's side he was the son of the second son of King Maekar, but on his mother's side he was the son of Princess Daenora, the youngest daughter of Prince Rhaegel, third son of Daeron the Good. He had (more) Targaryen blood and he was descended from the senior branches in comparison to Prince Aegon (who had a Dayne for a mother and a Blackwood as his wife).

The thing is - men like Daemon Blackfyre don't need their great pedigree as reasons why they should be king. And men cheering and following men like him don't care about the claims of women. Sure, he was the son of a princess, but what made him as great as he allegedly was his personality, his charisma, his looks, his skills at arms, etc. And, of course, that he was the son of the king. That was the crucial part. Not that he was also the son of a princess who could have been queen a couple of decades ago if she hadn't been imprisoned by her royal brother or dishonored herself and the royal family by giving birth to a bastard. That's not exactly something that makes you popular with the people. It makes you look like a whore.

Nobody cared about the fact that Robert Baratheon is the son of Cassana Estermont. That did neither help nor hinder him in his quest for the throne. Because people thought he was such a great guy.

Maybe Gerold Dayne will use that argument when he advances his claim. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maybe Gerold Dayne will use that argument when he advances his claim. ;)

You mean when he asks his swine and cattle to address him as 'Your Grace'?

No Dornishman is ever going to sit the Iron Throne, nor is anyone going to take such a claim seriously. Especially not from some Dayne from a cadet branch of the house.

Jon would also have pretty much no chance if he was officially the bastard of some White Harbor Stark or Gulltown Arryn.

And if any descendant of Maegor's or Aerion's would ever make a claim he would simply argue that he is descended from the elder male line, and thus the rightful heir. He doesn't have to bring up Daenora at all. 

Anyone desperate enough to stress the importance of his claim through the female line should better stay at home. Even Robert didn't exactly talk about Grandma Rhaelle all that much, did he? If it's the only real claim you have you have to sort of mention it but trying to impress people with the name of your (great-)grandmother or even mother instead of your father isn't exactly going to win you a lot of fans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The thing is that wanting the oldest king also demands that you know who the oldest king is. And it also demands that you need to be able to find him. And fact remains that Daemon was Aegon's oldest recognized and known bastard son of Aegon IV. Some escort or prostitute could well come up with a boy bearing Valyrian features and tried to sell him in as a son of Aegon. But without paternity checks you can't know and that's why Daemon remains the oldest known son of Aegon IV and other sons are simply impossible to know for relatively certain if they are Aegon's sons. As such you have what you get. Claiming that there was a need to track down and use 21th century paternity tests in Westeros in the 190s is ludicrous.

And to that comes that you've spend many threads promoting the election of the heir by the king. If Daemon was elected as the heir of Aegon IV then it don't matter if Daemon was the youngest son or even a non-relative of the king. He would still be the heir. Thus his position as the oldest recognized bastard of the king is really just a nice thing to have for Daemon's Blacks.

Edited by LionoftheWest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is neither implied nor explicitly stated but flat-out wrong. Ran told us Aegon II himself named Aegon the Younger and his daughter Jaehaera joint heirs because Corlys Velaryon forced him - in exchange for the support of the Velaryon fleet - to pardon his nephew and betroth his daughter to Rhaenyra's son. Alicent was very pissed about that but they couldn't help it.

We'll get the full story of that in 'Fire and Blood, Volume 1' or in some garbled form if there is some sort of anthology containing part of the Regency story prior to the publication of that book.

 

True but Aegon II also isseud the edict that Rhaenyra was never a queen and should only be revered to as prinsses, a edict that was left to stand. So that begs the question was Aegon III named joint heir on the basis of Rhaenyra beeing Aegon II sister or did Aegon II in order to not recognise his sister claim name him as the heir to they only other male line namely that off Daemon.

Unfortunatly we do not have that information at this time so really we do not know wheter Aegon III can be used as an example of the female line inheriting the throne. I really hope for some more info in Fire and Blood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, direpupy said:

True but Aegon II also isseud the edict that Rhaenyra was never a queen and should only be revered to as prinsses, a edict that was left to stand. So that begs the question was Aegon III named joint heir on the basis of Rhaenyra beeing Aegon II sister or did Aegon II in order to not recognise his sister claim name him as the heir to they only other male line namely that off Daemon.

Unfortunatly we do not have that information at this time so really we do not know wheter Aegon III can be used as an example of the female line inheriting the throne. I really hope for some more info in Fire and Blood.

Aegon the Younger's life was spared and he was named joint heir with Jaehaera because of political pressure from Corlys Velaryon. I doubt they actually gave shit about the fact that he was descended from Prince Daemon. Daemon would have been hated even more by Aegon/Alicent than Rhaenyra. He was the one who allegedly fucked and discarded Alicent back in the day, he was the one Otto and Alicent hated with a passion (so much that he pushed Viserys I to name Rhaenyra Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne in the first place), not to mention that he was the one behind Blood and Cheese, leading to the death of Aegon's eldest son and heir and the madness of his sister-wife Helaena.

I mean, you have to keep in mind that Rhaenyra, Daemon, and all their families and friends would have been formally attainted at the beginning of the Dance when the negotiations failed. From the Green point of view Daemon Targaryen was nothing, and even during Rhaenyra's short stint as Queen Regnant - which was then 'unmade' by Aegon II's decree all Daemon's own authority as Protector of the Realm came from Rhaenyra. He wasn't a lord in his own right or anything. In that sense they didn't have to issue any special decrees or proclamations unmaking him. 

Rhaenyra was trouble, too, but If guess they would have been much more willing to marry Jaehaera to one of the Strong bastards (had any of them still been around) instead of one of Daemon's brood.

In fact, this way both Rhaenyra and Daemon's presumptions get inevitably validated, never mind Aegon II's decrees. She isn't counted as a queen regnant but this doesn't mean Aegon II succeeded at destroying her claim to the Iron Throne in the eyes of the public. To say that the blood of one traitor - Rhaenyra - was invalidated because she isn't counted as a queen while the blood of the other traitor - Daemon - somehow still can transfer a claim to his son doesn't really make a lot of sense. Attainder means that your family line loses its claim to a title/lordship, not just you yourself. And that is used rather often in Westeros. And being a child doesn't help you with that, either. Joffrey has Shireen and Doran's children all attainted in that first court session in AGoT, never mind that some of them are most likely innocent and not involved in their fathers' treasons.

In that sense it is actually very likely that Aegon the Younger technically was no longer a member of the royal family by the time he was captured by Aegon II. At least not from the Green point of view. The fact that Aegon II and Alicent were forced to see him as a member of House Targaryen with a blood claim to anything was already part of the compromise that led to the betrothal between Jaehaera and Aegon.

If they had gotten their way they would have prevented Aegon III from ever getting near Jaehaera and from becoming king. But that's not what happened. The fact that Aegon II had to help Rhaenyra's son to become his successor himself shows how little power he actually wielded in the end. If I had been Aegon II I'd have ensured that this brat dies, too. By any means necessary. And I'm sure that's what they wanted to do when the Sea Snake was finally in the grave. He was a very old man by then and Aegon II didn't exactly plan to predecease the old man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon the Younger's life was spared and he was named joint heir with Jaehaera because of political pressure from Corlys Velaryon. I doubt they actually gave shit about the fact that he was descended from Prince Daemon. Daemon would have been hated even more by Aegon/Alicent than Rhaenyra. He was the one who allegedly fucked and discarded Alicent back in the day, he was the one Otto and Alicent hated with a passion (so much that he pushed Viserys I to name Rhaenyra Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne in the first place), not to mention that he was the one behind Blood and Cheese, leading to the death of Aegon's eldest son and heir and the madness of his sister-wife Helaena.

I mean, you have to keep in mind that Rhaenyra, Daemon, and all their families and friends would have been formally attainted at the beginning of the Dance when the negotiations failed. From the Green point of view Daemon Targaryen was nothing, and even during Rhaenyra's short stint as Queen Regnant - which was then 'unmade' by Aegon II's decree all Daemon's own authority as Protector of the Realm came from Rhaenyra. He wasn't a lord in his own right or anything. In that sense they didn't have to issue any special decrees or proclamations unmaking him. 

Rhaenyra was trouble, too, but If guess they would have been much more willing to marry Jaehaera to one of the Strong bastards (had any of them still been around) instead of one of Daemon's brood.

In fact, this way both Rhaenyra and Daemon's presumptions get inevitably validated, never mind Aegon II's decrees. She isn't counted as a queen regnant but this doesn't mean Aegon II succeeded at destroying her claim to the Iron Throne in the eyes of the public. To say that the blood of one traitor - Rhaenyra - was invalidated because she isn't counted as a queen while the blood of the other traitor - Daemon - somehow still can transfer a claim to his son doesn't really make a lot of sense. Attainder means that your family line loses its claim to a title/lordship, not just you yourself. And that is used rather often in Westeros. And being a child doesn't help you with that, either. Joffrey has Shireen and Doran's children all attainted in that first court session in AGoT, never mind that some of them are most likely innocent and not involved in their fathers' treasons.

In that sense it is actually very likely that Aegon the Younger technically was no longer a member of the royal family by the time he was captured by Aegon II. At least not from the Green point of view. The fact that Aegon II and Alicent were forced to see him as a member of House Targaryen with a blood claim to anything was already part of the compromise that led to the betrothal between Jaehaera and Aegon.

If they had gotten their way they would have prevented Aegon III from ever getting near Jaehaera and from becoming king. But that's not what happened. The fact that Aegon II had to help Rhaenyra's son to become his successor himself shows how little power he actually wielded in the end. If I had been Aegon II I'd have ensured that this brat dies, too. By any means necessary. And I'm sure that's what they wanted to do when the Sea Snake was finally in the grave. He was a very old man by then and Aegon II didn't exactly plan to predecease the old man.

Wow long answer, while i only said we did not have enough information to actually know what happend, a fact that does not change at all untill we get more information no matter what you say.

Altough your peronnal believes are quit clear from this answer, and dough you may be right you just as easilly be wrong.

untill Fire and Blood comes and hopefully gives us more insight its all just speculation, that was the point of my previeus post.

Edited by direpupy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Wow long answer, while i only said we did not have enough information to actually know what happend, a fact that does not change at all untill we get more information no matter what you say.

Altough your peronnal believes are quit clear from this answer, and dough you may be right you just as easilly be wrong.

untill Fire and Blood comes and hopefully gives us more insight its all just speculation, that was the point of my previeus post.

I could be wrong, but I really doubt I am. At least not insofar as Aegon II's and Alicent's opinions are concerned. They would have hated Daemon even more than Rhaenyra.

Now, post hoc rationalizations as to why the Seven Kingdoms were bowing to Rhaenyra's son, Aegon III - especially by the people who really loathed the idea of a female ruler - may have come up with the idea to justify Aegon III's claim to the throne by the fact that he was descended from the Old King in unbroken male line through Prince Baelon and Prince Daemon. Especially after Jaehaera's death robbed the king of his co-ruler/joint heir/whatever exactly her status was. The remaining Greens wouldn't exactly have liked that all that much, especially not after the king picked a Velaryon bride.

But it is quite clear that such things didn't play a role in him being named heir, nor in his ultimate ascension and coronation after the sudden death of Aegon II. Aegon III and Jaehaera were made joint heirs by Aegon II, and those Blacks who effectively won the Dance and triggered the assassination of Aegon II were fighting for Aegon the Younger as Rhaenyra's heir, not Daemon's. Daemon was never a king, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On August 17, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

The point is we never got a list of the bastards Aegon acknowledged. We get a list of his nine mistresses and the names of their children. The focus there is not on Aegon's bastards but on Aegon's mistresses. And Daemon Blackfyre isn't even one of them although he definitely is the greatest of the great bastards.

Now, I'm not saying that Aegon must have acknowledged any bastards he fathered on some whores and peasant women but he also slept with many more noblewomen than just (some of) his nine mistresses and Daena. For instance, there are the Butterwell daughters he deflowered, and presumably many more such women. Sure, it is not that likely he had that many longterm affairs with important noblewomen prior to the birth of Daemon Blackfyre but the man began very early. 

The point simply is that the arguments of the Blackfyre supporters basically are crap if they don't know for a certainty that Daemon Blackfyre is the eldest son of Aegon IV. If Daeron is falseborn then the eldest bastard son of Aegon's inherits, not necessarily Daemon Blackfyre. The king's deathbed decree legitimized all of his bastards. They are all royal now, whether they know it or not.

See above. Not all those sons would have to be baseborn. Some could have noble mothers. As long as we don't have a complete list of Aegon's acknowledged bastards it is impossible to say. But even if there is only some son of a commoner who is known to have sexual relations with Aegon IV looking like a Targaryen he should have pretty good cards in this game if he is definitely older than Daemon Blackfyre. Trystane Truefyre and Gaemon Palehair weren't acknowledged bastards, either, and they had some success simply because some people declared them Targaryen bastards.

We probably won't see a list or hear of all Aegon's bastards because they're not important. The fact is Daemon is the oldest male bastard Aegon ever acknowledge and thats what matters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

We probably won't see a list or hear of all Aegon's bastards because they're not important. The fact is Daemon is the oldest male bastard Aegon ever acknowledge and thats what matters. 

How do you know that? That is never stated anywhere. All we know is that Daemon was the eldest acknowledged bastard son (the Lothston son he might have fathered on Falena would have been much older) Aegon had from his nine mistresses and Daena.

We simply don't know whether he had any older bastards acknowledged. But even if he didn't he would have had older sons and those sons were legitimized by royal decree and thus had a much better claim than Daemon Blackfyre.

If you go by the right of primogeniture, that is. As the supporters of Daemon Blackfyre professed to be doing. After all, surely they did not just want Daemon to be king because he looked so good or because he was such a great warrior or because he had a Targaryen mother.

If they truly cared about the rightful king taking the throne they would have turned the Realm upside down to find the oldest bastard son of Aegon IV. But they didn't care about that, did they?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/30/2017 at 5:31 PM, LionoftheWest said:

Its kind of written to be weak and I think that GRRM almost went over the top with how we're supposed to see the Blackfyre claim as really, really bad.

But I think that you miss some important parts in that Daemon was legitimized by Aegon IV and given the sword of kings, Blackfyre, which makes it so that if Daeron is a bastard, then Daemon is the oldest son of Aegon IV and now a legitimized son of that king. Its a lot of make-believe but there are two points that could be used for making a claim to the throne.

One can see that Daemon has a primogenture claim through his mother Daena and that there really are no formal ways to designate an heir given Westeros' absolutistic monarchy. So in effect there's nothing to say that given Daemon the sword was not a way to designate him as the heir as the king is not bound by a rulebook in how something should be done. Dragonstone or a sword, an absolute king can designate an heir pretty much in whatever way that he likes. It really comes down to perspective and how one wants to interpret a royal action that isn't given a text message to explain it.

So... Blackfyre supporters thought he should have the throne because he has the bigger sword? Haha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So... Blackfyre supporters thought he should have the throne because he has the bigger sword? Haha.

No, the Blacks thought Daemon would have the throne because they thought that by getting Blackfyre Aegon IV was designating Daemon as the heir.

And note that I don't support the Blackfyre cause. I support King Daeron, but I dare to hope that there's more depth in regards to the conflicts in Westeros than in the Smurfs. But I am having a dawning feeling that maybe I am wrong. Maybe GRRM is really down on Manichean kind of view when it comes to the complexity of his conflicts.

Edited by LionoftheWest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On August 18, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? That is never stated anywhere. All we know is that Daemon was the eldest acknowledged bastard son (the Lothston son he might have fathered on Falena would have been much older) Aegon had from his nine mistresses and Daena.

We simply don't know whether he had any older bastards acknowledged. But even if he didn't he would have had older sons and those sons were legitimized by royal decree and thus had a much better claim than Daemon Blackfyre.

If you go by the right of primogeniture, that is. As the supporters of Daemon Blackfyre professed to be doing. After all, surely they did not just want Daemon to be king because he looked so good or because he was such a great warrior or because he had a Targaryen mother.

If they truly cared about the rightful king taking the throne they would have turned the Realm upside down to find the oldest bastard son of Aegon IV. But they didn't care about that, did they?

How do you know he did have a older bastard son out there? Even if Aegon did, that bastard son wasn't in a position to push his claim, like Daemon was or had the supporters Daemon had.  Daemon whole claim to the throne is weak but it's the strongest or had the most support  of Aegons bastards, no? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

How do you know he did have a older bastard son out there? Even if Aegon did, that bastard son wasn't in a position to push his claim, like Daemon was or had the supporters Daemon had.  Daemon whole claim to the throne is weak but it's the strongest or had the most support  of Aegons bastards, no? 

I don't know that for a certainty, but if Aegon the Unworthy sleeping with over 900 women during his lifetime the chances are very low that Daeron II and Daemon Waters are his two eldest sons.

The man could have had hundreds of children and it is not that likely that not a huge chunk of them were male.

But the point there is not that such a hypothetical elder bastard son would have pushed his claim, the point is that those men opposing the rule of Daeron II on the basis that the man wasn't the king's son should have turned the eldest bastard son of the king, not Daemon Blackfyre - unless, of course, they were absolutely sure that Daemon was his second eldest son after Daeron. But that is never stated anywhere. Nobody ever said anything about Daemon being the king's oldest male bastard.

But there is no confirmation that this is the case. Instead those men championed Daemon because they were in love with him, basically, instead of giving shit about the proper line of succession and the right of primogeniture.

The deathbed decree that legitimized Daemon Blackfyre legitimized all of Aegon's bastards, so the very decree that strengthened Daemon's claim also weakened it if we assume that the king may have had a son that was older than Daemon.

Anyone truly caring that the rightful heir sat the throne wouldn't have turned to Daemon but would have investigated as many of those 900 women Aegon had throughout his life, tracking down all of their children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18-8-2017 at 7:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

I could be wrong, but I really doubt I am. At least not insofar as Aegon II's and Alicent's opinions are concerned. They would have hated Daemon even more than Rhaenyra.

Now, post hoc rationalizations as to why the Seven Kingdoms were bowing to Rhaenyra's son, Aegon III - especially by the people who really loathed the idea of a female ruler - may have come up with the idea to justify Aegon III's claim to the throne by the fact that he was descended from the Old King in unbroken male line through Prince Baelon and Prince Daemon. Especially after Jaehaera's death robbed the king of his co-ruler/joint heir/whatever exactly her status was. The remaining Greens wouldn't exactly have liked that all that much, especially not after the king picked a Velaryon bride.

But it is quite clear that such things didn't play a role in him being named heir, nor in his ultimate ascension and coronation after the sudden death of Aegon II. Aegon III and Jaehaera were made joint heirs by Aegon II, and those Blacks who effectively won the Dance and triggered the assassination of Aegon II were fighting for Aegon the Younger as Rhaenyra's heir, not Daemon's. Daemon was never a king, after all.

the first two parts of your post i agree with to a certain degree, they would not have liked Daemon but hate him more then Rhaenyra im not to sure about that.

The third part is just speculation on your part with no basis in the texts of the books, it is never stated what the exact proclamation was by wich Aegon II made Aegon III his heir we really only know he shared that position with Jaehaera. And even dough he did this on the insitance of the Sea Snake he could still have twisted the proclamation to his own ends to make Aegon III 's claim weak, after all he did not really want Aegon III to succeed him. Likewise he could have twisted it to make the male claim wich is his own claim on the throne over Rhaenyra stronger by proclaiming Aegon heir  because of his decent from Daemon.

So this is really something on wich i feel judgement should be postponed until Fire and Blood come out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, direpupy said:

the first two parts of your post i agree with to a certain degree, they would not have liked Daemon but hate him more then Rhaenyra im not to sure about that.

Daemon was the one who killed Aegon II's son and heir killed, driving his sister-wife mad. Daemon was the one who fucked Alicent and discarded her. Daemon was the one who killed Aemond and Vhagar. Rhaenyra spared the lives of both Alicent and Helaena and executed the grandfather Aegon II already had publicly humiliated.

I mean, granted, perhaps Alicent was so obsessed with her stepdaughter and Aegon II so with his half-sister that they hated her the most. But that's the impression we get in the beginning of the Dance. There they despise Rhaenyra ('the whore) but they really hate and fear Daemon. His cruelty and real (or imagined) thirst for revenge is the main reason why they think they cannot give Rhaenyra the throne.

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

The third part is just speculation on your part with no basis in the texts of the books, it is never stated what the exact proclamation was by wich Aegon II made Aegon III his heir we really only know he shared that position with Jaehaera. And even dough he did this on the insitance of the Sea Snake he could still have twisted the proclamation to his own ends to make Aegon III 's claim weak, after all he did not really want Aegon III to succeed him. Likewise he could have twisted it to make the male claim wich is his own claim on the throne over Rhaenyra stronger by proclaiming Aegon heir  because of his decent from Daemon.

Now you are speculating and, in a sense, going against what we know because we do know that Aegon-Jaehaera became joint heirs. That means even Aegon II was forced to make a compromise there. 

With Aegon II's only remaining heir being a trueborn daughter she would have been his chosen heir under any circumstances. If Aegon II had had a choice he would never have betrothed Jaehaera to Aegon or pardoned the boy. He would have killed him, too, and he sure as hell must have dreamed to deal with Baela and Corlys the same way.

And you should keep in mind that Aegon II merely decreed that Rhaenyra never was a queen. He never said that his own daughter could not sit the Iron Throne or that a blood claim cannot pass through a woman to her son. If he did that the Iron Throne must remain empty if House Targaryen died out in the male line. And that would be ridiculous and would never happen. A dynasty has to prepare for that 'worst case scenario' or at least not make it impossible for their own daughters or grandsons through their daughters to take the throne under such circumstances.

It is certainly rather likely - and quite ironic, actually - that many of those guys joining the Greens because of 'the male claim' would have preferred Aegon the Younger to Jaehaera because of his gender and the fact that he was descended from the Old King in unbroken male line, also pushing Aegon II to not name his daughter his sole heir as well as pushing him to unite the bloodlines to help end the war.

But Aegon II himself most likely couldn't care less about Aegon the Younger's claim, never mind whether it went through Rhaenyra or Daemon or both. His parents were both attainted traitors and from Aegon II's point of view Aegon the Younger was nothing but a traitor's get, not fit to inherit anything, especially not the Iron Throne.

The Hightower-Targaryens didn't give shit about 'the male claim'. They wanted Alicent's bloodline on the Iron Throne because they wanted to seize power. Rhaenyra being female gave them a good pretext but as things stand they would have tried to grab power just as well even if she had been male. Some or even many people they recruited to their cause also thought the son should come before the daughter but for the core faction causing the Dance that was just pretext.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Now you are speculating and, in a sense, going against what we know because we do know that Aegon-Jaehaera became joint heirs. That means even Aegon II was forced to make a compromise there. 

 

Yes it is speculation just like what you say, again that was my whole point, its all speculation. I gave two other possibility's but until we get more information that's all it is, no matter how much you try to read over my point so you don't have to admit that you really don't and cant know by what proclamation Aegon and Jaehaera where made joint heirs and what you say is therefore speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Yes it is speculation just like what you say, again that was my whole point, its all speculation. I gave two other possibility's but until we get more information that's all it is, no matter how much you try to read over my point so you don't have to admit that you really don't and cant know by what proclamation Aegon and Jaehaera where made joint heirs and what you say is therefore speculation.

Well, you assume for no good reason that there might have been other aspects to Aegon II declaring Aegon-Jaehaera his joint heirs when there is no reason to assume that there is.

You could have had a point if Aegon II hadn't named an heir at all, and the people at court had only decided to crown Aegon III after his uncle's death. But that was clearly not the case.

But even then - half the Realm or more was still fighting for Rhaenyra's son when Aegon II died. Those people thought Aegon the Younger had a claim because he was his mother's son. Aegon II's anti-Rhaenyra decree just declared that she was never a queen, it didn't change the mind of her followers that she had transferred her blood claim to her son Aegon (nor did it actually change the historical fact that did sit the Iron Throne and had called herself queen). The Blacks were fighting for Rhaenyra's son, not Daemon's son. And they had no reason not to believe that his claim to the throne came from his mother, just as they had no problem with the idea that his mother could and did sit the Iron Throne.

If you check Aegon II's decree to unmake Queen Rhaenyra it is that he said that the true queens of that age were his mother, the Queen Dowager, and his sister-wife Helaena. This is a technicality about titles, it doesn't says anything about blood claims - something none of Rhaenyra's family would have left by that time, anyway, since both branches of House Targaryen would have attainted each other by that time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now