Barbrey Dustin

Bowen Marsh was right to remove Jon from office.

487 posts in this topic

Too bad the original topic was closed.  I appreciate all of the thoughtful replies.  Here is a link to the original discussion.  Please feel free to continue commenting. 

 

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So I guess there is a 20 page limit per thread?  I see members posting part 1, part 2, part 3 posting the same stuff.  I guess that is why.  Anyway, I wanted to put in my opinion and answer some questions that had been brought up.

  1. Did Jon send Mance Rayder to Winterfell?  My opinion is, he did.  Mance has a history of getting in and out of heavily guarded places.  He visited Winterfell during the feasts for Robert Baratheon.  Jon must have come to the conclusion that this is the man who can get Arya from Ramsay. 
  2. Mance is acting on Jon's behalf on the mission that Jon gave him.  Jon is responsible for what Mance and his women do while performing the job that he sent them to do.  So yeah, Jon is as guilty of the violation of guest rights as Mance is.
  3. Mance Rayder is still a brother of the NW.  He took the oaths and said his words.  Mance may consider himself a free folk, but he is still a crow.  Meaning Jon is guilty of treason for sending a sworn brother of the watch to take Ramsay's wife. 

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Did Jon send Mance Rayder to Winterfell?  My opinion is, he did. 

Another Jon hate thread. *yawning*

In the end of the day Bowen killed his Lord Commander and if he is lucky enough he will have a quick death. By killing Jon he not only signed his own death sentence and will get rid of his annoying presence but also helped Jon to reborn as AAR. So his actions were only beneficial for both Jon and us.

6 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

My opinion is, he did. 

Your opinion is irrelevant since the text proves you wrong. 

Edited by The Doctor's Consort

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Just now, The Doctor's Consort said:

 

In the end of the day Bowen killed his Lord Commander and if he is lucky enough he will have a quick death. By killing Jon he not only signed his own death sentence and will get rid of his annoying personality but also helped Jon to reborn as AAR. So his actions were only beneficial for both Jon and us.

 

Or maybe we get a lucky break and Jon stays dead.  Bowen may lose his life but somebody needed to stop Jon.

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Another generic Jon/Stark hate thread? 

Jeez, maybe instead of focusing on the stagnation of Westeros we should realize that what Jon is doing (thinking and acting honorably) is actually a step in the right direction. 

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10 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

So I guess there is a 20 page limit per thread?  I see members posting part 1, part 2, part 3 posting the same stuff.  I guess that is why.  Anyway, I wanted to put in my opinion and answer some questions that had been brought up.

  1. Did Jon send Mance Rayder to Winterfell?  My opinion is, he did.  Mance has a history of getting in and out of heavily guarded places.  He visited Winterfell during the feasts for Robert Baratheon.  Jon must have come to the conclusion that this is the man who can get Arya from Ramsay. 
  2. Mance is acting on Jon's behalf on the mission that Jon gave him.  Jon is responsible for what Mance and his women do while performing the job that he sent them to do.  So yeah, Jon is as guilty of the violation of guest rights as Mance is.
  3. Mance Rayder is still a brother of the NW.  He took the oaths and said his words.  Mance may consider himself a free folk, but he is still a crow.  Meaning Jon is guilty of treason for sending a sworn brother of the watch to take Ramsay's wife. 

All wrong, because it was Mel who sent Mance not Jon.

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2 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Or maybe we get a lucky break and Jon stays dead. 

If you believe that that's actually possible, your understanding of the story being told is simply abysmal. 

2 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Bowen may lose his life but somebody needed to stop Jon.

Aye, Marsh will lose life, limb by limb if I can have my wish. But no matter, even a quick, fairly painless death will do. 

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Or maybe we get a lucky break and Jon stays dead.  Bowen may lose his life but somebody needed to stop Jon.

As GRRM said; Oh, you think he's dead, do you? .

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Another generic Jon/Stark hate thread? 

Jeez, maybe instead of focusing on the stagnation of Westeros we should realize that what Jon is doing (thinking and acting honorably) is actually a step in the right direction. 

But Jon doesn't have silver hair, purple eyes and hasn't killed children. Hence he has to be hated.

11 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

All wrong, because it was Mel who sent Mance not Jon.

Good point.

Edited by The Doctor's Consort
Changed from has to hasn't in order to be clear.

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27 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

Too bad the original topic was closed.  I appreciate all of the thoughtful replies.  Here is a link to the original discussion.  Please feel free to continue commenting. 

 

Thanks

 

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3 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

All wrong, because it was Mel who sent Mance not Jon.

Mel doesn't have the authority to do that.  She only brought up the idea for Jon to consider.  The decision was Jon's.  Jon can't avoid responsibility for the operation.  

17 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Mance Rayder is still a brother of the NW.  He took the oaths and said his words.  Mance may consider himself a free folk, but he is still a crow.  Meaning Jon is guilty of treason for sending a sworn brother of the watch to take Ramsay's wife. 

True.  Mance is a deserter but now that he's returned to Castle Black he is technically still one of the "crows".

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15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Another generic Jon/Stark hate thread? 

Jeez, maybe instead of focusing on the stagnation of Westeros we should realize that what Jon is doing (thinking and acting honorably) is actually a step in the right direction. 

What Jon did was selfish.  Starting a feud with Ramsay is not a step in the right direction.  It's zero steps forward and two steps back.  

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You can multi-quote, you know. ^^

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

What Jon did was selfish.  Starting a feud with Ramsay is not a step in the right direction.  It's zero steps forward and two steps back.  

No, that is not what the story says. And the fact that certain posters just want to go on and on about this without considering the larger picture in the story is silly. 

Are you denying Marsh and company were plotting against Jon since before Jon was LC? 

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Damn autocorrect

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Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

No, that is not what the story says. And the fact that certain poster shows just want to go on and on about this without considering the larger picture in the story is silly. 

Are you denying Marsh and company were plotting against Jon since before Jen was LC? 

I don't think there was a conspiracy against Jon.  Many didn't like him and some for good reasons.  But a conspiracy to kill him?  I don't think so.

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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don't think there was a conspiracy against Jon.  Many didn't like him and some for good reasons.  But a conspiracy to kill him?  I don't think so.

JON CATCHES THEM PLOTTING! It is back in ASOS when Marsh and friends are caught plotting against the Watch elections.  The symbolic nature of it can't hit anyone over the head harder. And they send him out to die on a second time, as the actual text says  

That was Jon's mistake, not dealing with those four sooner. But then, Bran has a near death experience to awaken his gift just like DANy does. See the pattern? 

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Damn autocorrect

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15 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don't think there was a conspiracy against Jon.  Many didn't like him and some for good reasons.  But a conspiracy to kill him?  I don't think so.

What good reasons?

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1 minute ago, Adam Yozza said:

What good reasons?

I'll leave @The Doctor's Consort reply here:

"But Jon doesn't have silver hair, purple eyes and has killed children. Hence he has to be hated."

:lmao:

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Mel doesn't have the authority to do that.  She only brought up the idea for Jon to consider.  The decision was Jon's.  Jon can't avoid responsibility for the operation. 

Not that I care about vows:

I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god." She pointed with a pale finger. "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya’s deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light ... and me."

Mance was Stannis prisoner not Jon's. He had never been in Jon's custody. The most Jon could have done would be to kill Mance after he left CB. What he said he would do if it had been Rattleshirt. But Mance is not Rattleshirt or the Weeper.

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Mance's Mission:  Jon seems to intend a covert operation to discreetly rescue his sister and send her overseas, hopefully without anyone else finding out about it.  This is doable with a rescue near Long Lake, with Mance and a few spearwives.  It also has the benefit of not actually using NW resources, giving him the fig leaf of claiming it as a personal mission.

Sending Mance to Winterfell doesn't accomplish this.  It is too obvious.  Given some of Mance's remarks, I think he well may have had a hidden agenda or other ulterior motives in going to Winterfell, and that the spearwives who went with him were under the impression that they were sent, or at least authorized, to enter Winterfell.  At this point, it doesn't really matter, as everybody is going to assume that they were sent to Winterfell, even if they weren't.

Given that he is unwilling or unable to accede to the demands of the letter, he does what seems to him to be the next best thing.  A personal mission to meet Ramsay, not involving the NW.   Contrary to what some posters think, Jon is doing everything he can to avoid the NW directly in his activities.  He may well have been unsuccessful, but there is no indication that he has been deliberately trying to provoke a confrontation with the Boltons, the Crown, or anybody else.

 

Marsh and the conspirators:  It is apparent that they were up to something.  Stabbing Jon was not a plan they came up with in 5 minutes of talk.  It does appear, that they were not ready, and only attacked because it was "now or never".  He was leaving  Castle Black, and directly confronting the Boltons.  It may have been that they were waiting for a better opportunity, or for something overt.  I think they are hoping they will have sufficient support to survive, but were desperate in any case.  I also thin that in addition to the Wildling policies, they were unhappy about Jon's support of Stannis, believing that it would get them in trouble with the Crown.

 

Jon's desertion:  Mormont didn't actually pardon Jon.  He simply said that Jon hadn't deserted in the first place.  Jon was present for duty, and therefore hadn't really deserted.   Overnight absences apparently don't count if you're back by morning.  Jon may have tried to desert, but attempt isn't the same as a completed crime.

 

Arya and Dareon:  Arya is absolutely a murderer for killing Dareon. She is a child, has been given no authority by anybody, and is in Braavos to boot.  If Westeros law doesn't apply North of the Wall, it sure as hell has no application in Braavos.  If Ned Stark himself had seen a deserter on a visit to Braavos, he would have been unable to do anything about it.  The only people I will give a pass on on this is the NW itself.  If Sam, or another NW man, had killed Dareon, I would be OK with it.  As for Arya, while I think her murder of Dareon is her worst act, she is still a better person than, say, any of the main line of Lannisters are.

 

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Wanting to kill Jon for wanting to save a teenage girl who was kidnapped, tortured, and raped?  And for wanting to depose a man (Ramsay) who kidnaps, tortures, and rapes women?

I understand the thinking that a character is boring, cliche, etc.  But saying Jon Snow deserves to die?

Did he technically break the law?  I think so, maybe.  But I agree completely.

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, it is his duty to do so.

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