Bowen Marsh was right to remove Jon from office.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 10/1/2017 at 4:44 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

The Night’s Watch sent out ravens asking for help against the Wildlings. No one answered their plea except for Stannis. Stannis did not do so until Davos who was taught to read by Maester Pylos brought a letter before Stannis and said  ---- paraphrasing ---- Stannis could win the realm if Stannis helped save the realm.

A Storm of Swords - Davos V           Davos flattened down the little square of crinkled parchment and squinted at the tiny crabbed letters. Reading was hard on the eyes, that much he had learned early. Sometimes he wondered if the Citadel offered a champion's purse to the maester who wrote the smallest hand. Pylos had laughed at the notion, but . . .      "To the . . . five kings," read Davos, hesitating briefly over five, which he did not often see written out. "The king . . . be . . . the king . . . beware?"         "Beyond," the maester corrected.      Davos grimaced. "The King beyond the Wall comes . . . comes south. He leads a . . . a . . . fast . . ."    "Vast."    ". . . a vast host of wil . . . wild . . . wildlings. Lord M . . . Mmmor . . . Mormont sent a . . . raven from the . . . ha . . . ha . . ."      "Haunted. The haunted forest." Pylos underlined the words with the point of his finger.     ". . . the haunted forest. He is . . . under a . . . attack?"

I can't merely pick an instance/situation and debate it to death. Martin has written a looooooooooooog story that eventually needs to make sense. Jon Snow was not LC at the time Davos brought the letter to Stannis.  The choosing of LC came later.  Stannis decides to go north. Having arrived at East Watch he and his troops arrive outside Castle Black and brake Mance and the wildlings.

In story the only help the NW received was from Stannis.  Stannis wants to liberate WF so that the North will ally with his cause.

It is a long frekking story. I know Bolton conspired with Lannister & Frey to kill the King of the North (which is another story). I know that the seat of power of Westeros is based in KL under Lannister rule under the guise that Robert’s children are his true born children.

Story wise the newly elected LC Snow, Stannis and the wildlings know who their enemy is. The rest of Westeros does not think that the Other’s & their wights exist.

The purpose of Stannis winning WF is to recruit the North to his cause. He has claimed the Night Fort as his seat at the Wall (a contradiction in of itself) and he plans on returning there to fight the Others after the WF situation is dealt with (which is another story). 

Why do people insist that Jon broke his vows for Arya? The pink/bastard letter clearly states that Ramsey does not have her.  “I want my bride back.”

 

 

The pink letter's arrival forced Jon to admit his crimes.  He already broke Night's Watch laws many times over.  He let Mance Rayder walk away from execution.  A man who was guilty of the most heinous crimes against the watch and the people of the seven kingdoms.  Jon let this poor excuse for a human live because the guy can help get his sister out of Winterfell.  This, right after he executes a sworn brother of the Night's Watch for a comparatively minor offense.  The way Jon handled the situation of Janos and Mance is an assault to justice.  Jon allowed personal feelings and personal interests to decide his actions.  Jon is very much unfit to lead.  He is the worst leader ever to command the watch.  He follows this idiot move by sending Mance + wildlings to go get his sister away from Ramsay Bolton.   I will admit, Jon is not the sharpest of people but even one such as him would know this act is a declaration of war against Roose Bolton, the legitimate warder of the north, unlawful, and a violation of his vows.

The pink letter escalated the threat that Jon believed Arya was in.  I would imagine he had images in his mind of Arya trying to run away from Ramsay and his dogs.  Was Jon simply going to rescue her and then force her to return to Ramsay?  We all know Jon was not going to do that.  He was going to take Arya away from the Boltons and he was willing to endanger everyone in the kingdom to do it.  Irresponsible behavior for one tasked with defending against the Others. 

It is clear from the text that Jon betrayed the Night's Watch, committed illegal acts, started a war, and broke his vows.  All that to rescue his sister.  Jon destroyed the wall and the watch for the sake of Arya.  He's the worst leader in the history of the wall. 

[Tagganaro]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You should reread the books some more. Mance is a traitor the Watch. He abandoned his brothers and then began actively hunting and killing them alongside his new 'people' after a disagreement over a piece of cloth. I really like Mance as a character, his story is one of the most compelling back stories in the series, but he is a mortal enemy of the NW, and he deserves to die for his crimes.

Not so much for deserting but for actively turning against and fighting the Watch, culminating in his mad war against the NW.

What did this man do after he realized that the Others were a thing and that he and his people could not stand against them? Did he send envoys to Castle Black to make a deal? Did he try to contact King Robert in distant King's Landing to try to make an alliance against this common enemy?

No. He gathered his men, assembled an army, and intended to crush the NW and conquer the lands south of the Wall so that his people would be safe. He didn't give shit about fighting the NW together.

Jon spent a couple of days with Mance. Mallister knew the man much longer. And Mance still betrayed him. How likely is it that such a man is going to be true to his word now? Perhaps he'll abandon Jon for another piece of cloth? Or some other stupid reason.

And this is just Mance. The other wildlings hate the Watch even more.

  This blurb is so full of contradictions- you "like Mance as a character" and he has a compelling back story, but you dismiss his entire back story of leaving the Watch as a disagreement over a piece of cloth and a stupid reason?  Perhaps you need the reread .  

15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I agree that LC Snow was not in on switch and found about it later.

The pink/bastard letter however insinuates that Jon was involved.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII      If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies.

Also I want to thank you for agreeing with me a few posts back.

I guess we will have to wait until @Quoth the raven, replies.

Well, I mean the Pink Letter exposes the lie that Mance Rayder is dead- While I do think there's some shenanigans involved and I don't think the Pink Letter is 100% true, assuming that Ramsay has captured and tortured Mance and/or the Spearwives, Mance may have told him that Jon sent him to rescue Arya from Long lake.  That certainly insinuates Jon being involved, which is true.    

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Well, I mean the Pink Letter exposes the lie that Mance Rayder is dead- While I do think there's some shenanigans involved and I don't think the Pink Letter is 100% true, assuming that Ramsay has captured and tortured Mance and/or the Spearwives, Mance may have told him that Jon sent him to rescue Arya from Long lake.  That certainly insinuates Jon being involved, which is true.    

You're right, Jon does know Mance is alive & kept it secret but that's not a betrayal to the NW IMO. If anything it's a betrayal to the wildlings. Jon didn't partake in the switch that allowed Mance to be alive though. He was definitely involved in the plot to rescue Arya but I don't see that as a betrayal to the NW either. 

I do see why members of the NW would see it that way as they don't know the whole story. 

[the trees have eyes]

20 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

First of all, there is no hypnosis and Jon's "advocacy" for the man is not insane, indeed it's explicitly the opposite and stated as pragmatic.  Jon knows that Mance controls the wildlings and believes that the NW needs the wildlings and their numbers to defeat the Others.  I do think there's a healthy respect that Jon has for Mance which is only rational- Jon basically "grew up" watching Mance beyond the Wall over the course of ASOIAF and sees similarities between their low birth statuses.  What does "demonstrably faithless to non-wildlings" mean?  

The NW is being distracted from their purpose and having their manpower diverted or stifled to begin with by Marsh, Ramsay, Stannis, everyone in Westeros, etc.  The question is how you view the NW and their mission- I would argue that the books make it very clear that the NW has lost sight of its mission and purpose through centuries of incompetence, mismanagement, and mistreatment by Westerosi Lords.  I would further argue that the books make it very clear Jon is right about the wildlings vs the Others- it is a fight of the living vs the dead and the NW as currently constituted cannot afford to sit back and hide behind the Wall with depleted numbers while the Others continue to grow the Army of the Dead with the wildlings stuck beyond the Wall.

Of course- nobody is arguing that Jon is infallible nor 100% correct in his reaction to the Pink Letter and his rule as LC in general.  That would be boring writing and a boring read.  But you said it yourself- Bowen marsh is a strawman caricature and it amazes me to see so many people sympathetic to him and his worldview.  

Agreed. 

It's worth remembering that the NW number a mere handful, what a thousand or so ?, with most of the rangers lost at the Fist of the First Men leaving a motley collection of builders, stewards and a few fighting men.  Quite what people expect this force to achieve militarily without any suport from Stannis and the wildlings is baffling to me.  Jon sets about building up the NW while trying to keep Stannis out of his hair as much as possible AND allow the one military commander who answered the NW's plea for help to build up his position in the North.  It's almost like people would rather Jon sat at The Wall, "true to his vows", with his enormous army of 200 men while the Wildlings all die and turn into wights and he studiously avoids doing anything to build up the NW's position or forge alliances because that is "interfering in politics".  The true purpose of the NW is to defend the realms of men and that is what Jon is doing.  Apparently some folks would rather follow "the rules" and tradition even after they realise they have forgotten their true purpose and that those rules and tradition are actively hindering their whole purpose.

Yeah,  Marsh is the curveball thrown at Jon that GRRM throws at all his characters: he threw LF at Ned, Walder Frey and Roose Bolton at Robb, Shae at Tyrion and Mirri Maz Duur at Dany.  We are meant to understand these characters' reasons because GRRM doesn't do black / evil cardboard cutouts but we are not meant to agree with their actions!  It truly astonishes me how many people do so.  Given Jon has been set up as the one character who understands the looming threat and is trying to confront it I have to wonder how much Marshphilia is really just contrarianism: we're supposed to sympathise with Jon and condemn Marsh so it's more appealing to some people to do the opposite.

[The Commentator]

58 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You're right, Jon does know Mance is alive & kept it secret but that's not a betrayal to the NW IMO. If anything it's a betrayal to the wildlings. Jon didn't partake in the switch that allowed Mance to be alive though. He was definitely involved in the plot to rescue Arya but I don't see that as a betrayal to the NW either. 

I do see why members of the NW would see it that way as they don't know the whole story. 

Knowing the whole story won't make the members of the NW sympathetic towards Jon.  More like the opposite.  Jon is wrong no matter how you look at what he did.  Many of those men left behind families they cared about as much as Jon cared about Arya.  None of them ran off and abandoned their vows to help their families during the war of the five kings.  They are better men and boys than Jon.

Giving Mance Rayder a get-out-of-execution-pass is not a minor matter.  It's not just a betrayal of the Night's Watch, the realm, and justice.  It is a very selfish, self-serving act.  That one act of gross injustice alone, the differential treatment of two men guilty of insubordination, made Jon unworthy of leading the watch.  

Mance Rayder, a sworn brother of the watch, was guilty of insubordination.  Rather than comply and face punishment, he ran off.  He joined the wildlings and advanced himself in their ranks until he became their king.  He is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of Night's Watch men as well as many citizens of the north.  And Jon let him walk!

Janos Slynt was only guilty of insubordination.  And Jon killed him for it.  If that is not a gross violation of justice then nothing is.  

Does anyone think G. Martin just happened to write the plot so that Mance and Janos were both guilty of insubordination?  Martin carefully crafts his story and takes an ungodly amount of time to work out the details.  He meant for that parallel to exist and he meant for us to question Jon's motives and actions.  It was unjust to kill Janos and then let Mance get off.  

The act of rescuing Arya is a gross betrayal of the NW.  That is a declaration of war.  Taking away the wife of a nobleman is hostile behavior and equivalent to starting a war with that nobleman.  Many people will die because of that very selfish act by Jon.  If the gods are good, Bowen Marsh and his partners will take Jon's body and burn it immediately.  

[Clegane'sPup]

16 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

The pink letter's arrival forced Jon to admit his crimes.  He already broke Night's Watch laws many times over.  He let Mance Rayder walk away from execution.  A man who was guilty of the most heinous crimes against the watch and the people of the seven kingdoms.  Jon let this poor excuse for a human live because the guy can help get his sister out of Winterfell.  This, right after he executes a sworn brother of the Night's Watch for a comparatively minor offense.  The way Jon handled the situation of Janos and Mance is an assault to justice.  Jon allowed personal feelings and personal interests to decide his actions.  Jon is very much unfit to lead.  He is the worst leader ever to command the watch.  He follows this idiot move by sending Mance + wildlings to go get his sister away from Ramsay Bolton.   I will admit, Jon is not the sharpest of people but even one such as him would know this act is a declaration of war against Roose Bolton, the legitimate warder of the north, unlawful, and a violation of his vows.

The pink letter escalated the threat that Jon believed Arya was in.  I would imagine he had images in his mind of Arya trying to run away from Ramsay and his dogs.  Was Jon simply going to rescue her and then force her to return to Ramsay?  We all know Jon was not going to do that.  He was going to take Arya away from the Boltons and he was willing to endanger everyone in the kingdom to do it.  Irresponsible behavior for one tasked with defending against the Others. 

It is clear from the text that Jon betrayed the Night's Watch, committed illegal acts, started a war, and broke his vows.  All that to rescue his sister.  Jon destroyed the wall and the watch for the sake of Arya.  He's the worst leader in the history of the wall. 

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Martin has written a multi faceted book with interwoven plots which at times can make me ask “wtf did I just read.” A personal ankle biter for me is when did Roose join with Lannister.

Jon was not involved in the Rattleshirt Mance switch. Mel, the red witch and Stannis were. Although she may have acted on her own. My  speculation is that Stannis was aware of the switch.

The letter says that Ramsey wants his bride back.  I take that to mean Ramsey doesn’t have his bride in his possession.

LC Snow did not send Mance to WF. Mance went to WF for reasons yet undisclosed.

Yes, when LC Snow found out about the Rattleshirt Mance glamour he should have taken Mance, a deserter from the NW into custody. BUT that is not how Martin wrote the story. Martin wanted Mance at WF and that is where Mance ended up.

Some of the people in the story believe Jon Snow to be an oath breaker and question his loyalty. Me, I know that Halfhand gave Jon a quest to infiltrate the wildlings. Jon can’t prove that because Halfhand is dead.

No one in the realm replied to the NW request for help except Stannis.

Ramsey does not have fArya and he is demanding that LC Snow return her. Stannis has/had her. Stannis also has/had Theon (Reek). If Stannis was defeated at the crofters village that means Jeyne and Theon were not found. If Stannis prevailed at the crofters village and was defeated at WF Ramsey still does not have procession of fArya or Reek which Ramsy wants LC Snow to return to him. Jon can’t return them because he does not have them.

Below Jon tells Stannis that WF belongs to Sansa. The reason Jon says that is because Jon believes Bran & Rickon to be dead. Stannis then once again tries to win Jon with the Lord of WF carrot stick which Jon once again refuses.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV          Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."       "I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside. "You could bring the north to me. Your father's bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark. Even Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. White Harbor would give me a ready source of supply and a secure base to which I could retreat at need. It is not too late to amend your folly, Snow. Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North."        How many times will he make me say it? "My sword is sworn to the Night's Watch." end

Keep in mind that Stannis has sent Davos to treat with Manderly. Manderly pulls a switch of his own. Davos is supposedly dead by Manderly’s order. Manderly actually hid Davos in the Wolf’s Den for a while and then sent Davos on a mission to retrieve his liege Rickon Stark & his wolf.

What did LC Snow say in the shield hall after he read the pink/bastard letter aloud to the NW, the wildlings, the Queens’s men and Mel? Nothing about Arya.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII        "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

"The Night's Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …" Jon paused. "… is there any man here who will come stand with me?"       The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard. end

When I read the above quote I read that Ramsey has swore to cut out the LC’s heart. That means the Bolton’s mean to march upon CB if Jon does not send what Ramsey wants’ and what Jon does not have to send ----fArya and Theon (Reek).

Martin decides that the time is right for a number of men of the NW to act out their mutiny plot which has been brewing since Slynt arrived at East Watch and that LC Snow, who did not campaign to become LC during the choosing needs to get stabbed and left in limbo.

The characters in the book aren’t privy to the information that the reader is. Very few people know the truth that Bran & Rickon did not die by Theon’s hand,or that Roose skewered King Robb and that Ramsey killed Rodrik & the north men and burned Winter town & Winterfell.

Bowen Marsh may have believed what he did was the correct thing to do.

Jon’s motivation for going to WF had nothing to do with Arya. LC Snow could not deliver Ramsey what he wanted ---- Arya and Theon because he does not have them. That means the Bolton’s will march on Castle Black.  LC Snow planned on taking the fight to WF thus leaving the NW out of the ruckus. The bonus was the wildlings decided to join with him. Did they join with LC Snow because it was revealed that Mance, King Beyond the Wall, is being held at WF? I don’t know.

Anyway, I’ve been stuck in a holding pattern since 2011 and I am becoming acutely aware that I will only get one ending be that as it may.

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I don't think the Pink Letter is 100% true,

Neither do I. That is why I give it the moniker of the biggest mind fuck in the novels.

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

ummmmmmmmmm what did I type to get an eye roll?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

  This blurb is so full of contradictions- you "like Mance as a character" and he has a compelling back story, but you dismiss his entire back story of leaving the Watch as a disagreement over a piece of cloth and a stupid reason?  Perhaps you need the reread .  

I fully understand why Mance did what he did. I might have done something similar - although I'd not have decided to actively hunt and slaughter my former brothers as Mance did - but it is still childish behavior. The NW wears black. And Mance swore a vow. He is not behaving like an adult there. Mance is a man who owes everything to the NW. They took him in, made him a man, trained him at arms, taught him how to lead men. Nobody forced him to swear that vow and he did it of his own free will, knowing what it meant. 

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Knowing the whole story won't make the members of the NW sympathetic towards Jon.  More like the opposite.  Jon is wrong no matter how you look at what he did.  Many of those men left behind families they cared about as much as Jon cared about Arya.  None of them ran off and abandoned their vows to help their families during the war of the five kings.  They are better men and boys than Jon.

That is an important point when we assess Jon's character. Dareon, for instance, needed both the incentive and a good opportunity to break his vows in Braavos. The only pretext Jon needed is the message that his family was in trouble. Not to mention his earlier attempt to kill Alliser Thorne.

Jon didn't go the Wall because he wanted to protect the realms of men. He went there because he wanted to prove to himself and the world that he was a great guy. The NW was his career choice because apparently it allows bastards to rise into positions they usually don't get.

And even when he realizes what's actually going on he cannot let go his family and past - unlike, say, Samwell, Pyp, Grenn, etc. who never decide to go back home and check on their families. 

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Giving Mance Rayder a get-out-of-execution-pass is not a minor matter.  It's not just a betrayal of the Night's Watch, the realm, and justice.  It is a very selfish, self-serving act.  That one act of gross injustice alone, the differential treatment of two men guilty of insubordination, made Jon unworthy of leading the watch.  

Mance Rayder, a sworn brother of the watch, was guilty of insubordination.  Rather than comply and face punishment, he ran off.  He joined the wildlings and advanced himself in their ranks until he became their king.  He is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of Night's Watch men as well as many citizens of the north.  And Jon let him walk!

Janos Slynt was only guilty of insubordination.  And Jon killed him for it.  If that is not a gross violation of justice then nothing is.  

Does anyone think G. Martin just happened to write the plot so that Mance and Janos were both guilty of insubordination?  Martin carefully crafts his story and takes an ungodly amount of time to work out the details.  He meant for that parallel to exist and he meant for us to question Jon's motives and actions.  It was unjust to kill Janos and then let Mance get off.  

This somewhat more complex. It was Stannis who did not execute Mance, not Jon. Jon convinced him not to do it but back when the execution was discussed Jon's issue was about the message Mance's execution would send to the wildlings.

After Jon discovered that Rattleshirt was Mance he could have seized him, of course, but I don't think he could have executed him without Stannis' leave. Or rather - if he had done it without Stannis' leave that might have caused him severe problems down the road.

Sending him out to do his dirty work was insane, though. 

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The act of rescuing Arya is a gross betrayal of the NW.  That is a declaration of war.  Taking away the wife of a nobleman is hostile behavior and equivalent to starting a war with that nobleman.  Many people will die because of that very selfish act by Jon.  If the gods are good, Bowen Marsh and his partners will take Jon's body and burn it immediately.  

It might lead to a lot of deaths at the Wall but I doubt this issue is going to contribute much to the war between Stannis and the Boltons. And in fact, it might turn out that the Mance thing actually helped the good guys a lot considering that Jeyne's loss might be the first nail in Roose and Ramsay's coffin. When the Northmen at Winterfell learn what has transpired many of them are likely to either join Stannis in a coming battle, quietly desert, or simply decide to not fight for the Boltons when the battle begins.

[Leo of House Cartel]

I don't think Jon's motives for joining the Watch should be relevant in terms of judgement of his current character. Respected heroes like Selmy only began their historic journeys due to a love of fighting. Arya more or less joined the Faceless Men because she wanted to learn the skills displayed by Jaquen/Syrio, skills which would benefit her list. Sam is held my many as possibly the best person in the books yet he took only took the black because his father forced him.

Of all the players we see at Castle Black, it's the Lord Commander who seems to be taking the threat of the Others most seriously by the end of ADWD. That's the main goal of the Watch after all, and has ony been forgotten due to time and ignorance. 

Can we really say other members of the NW are better men/boys than Jon, when the guy is actively trying to save the world from some cold oblivion?

In saying that, it may be quite hard for us board members to relate to someone who has an army of White Walkers and a hellish winter to deal with - almost like how the average lord/maester in Westeros ridicules the idea of the Others/magic. It's all a bit meta, if you will.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Knowing the whole story won't make the members of the NW sympathetic towards Jon.  More like the opposite.  Jon is wrong no matter how you look at what he did.  Many of those men left behind families they cared about as much as Jon cared about Arya.  None of them ran off and abandoned their vows to help their families during the war of the five kings.  They are better men and boys than Jon.

Giving Mance Rayder a get-out-of-execution-pass is not a minor matter.  It's not just a betrayal of the Night's Watch, the realm, and justice.  It is a very selfish, self-serving act.  That one act of gross injustice alone, the differential treatment of two men guilty of insubordination, made Jon unworthy of leading the watch.  

Mance Rayder, a sworn brother of the watch, was guilty of insubordination.  Rather than comply and face punishment, he ran off.  He joined the wildlings and advanced himself in their ranks until he became their king.  He is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of Night's Watch men as well as many citizens of the north.  And Jon let him walk!

Janos Slynt was only guilty of insubordination.  And Jon killed him for it.  If that is not a gross violation of justice then nothing is.  

Does anyone think G. Martin just happened to write the plot so that Mance and Janos were both guilty of insubordination?  Martin carefully crafts his story and takes an ungodly amount of time to work out the details.  He meant for that parallel to exist and he meant for us to question Jon's motives and actions.  It was unjust to kill Janos and then let Mance get off.  

The act of rescuing Arya is a gross betrayal of the NW.  That is a declaration of war.  Taking away the wife of a nobleman is hostile behavior and equivalent to starting a war with that nobleman.  Many people will die because of that very selfish act by Jon.  If the gods are good, Bowen Marsh and his partners will take Jon's body and burn it immediately.  

It probably wouldn't make them more sympathetic towards him but he didn't have anything to do with the Mance switch. He only found out after the fact. 

Regarding Janos & Mance - fair enough. Sometimes I have to be pulled back in because I do love Jon. But you're right. Mance should have been executed for desertion. He had every right to execute Janos for refusing an order given to him by his LC though. It's just so much easier to like Mance than it is Janos. At least for me. I wanted Jon to execute Janos & was genuinely sad when I thought Mance died. I would argue though if Jon executed Mance after he realized he was alive it would cause more discord, especially with the wildlings. 

I really have a hard time seeing the fArya rescue as a gross betrayal of the NW though. Jon didn't use NW men, he had a willing participant in a man that was technically Stannis' hostage. I think he did a good job of trying to stay within the boundaries & rescue his sister. I understand many other people left their families & Jon left his as well. As much as he wanted to he did not desert the NW when they beheaded his "father", when his brother called his banners, or when they slaughtered his brother. If another man of the NW had a sibling in the hands of a murderous monster & someone not sworn to the NW was willing to go try to rescue them do you think they would say no? If so I would hate to be their sibling. 

It just isn't as black & white as you are making it. Just because something is a rule or a law doesn't make it morally right & helping someone can never be morally wrong IMO. Some of Jon's decisions definitely walk the line & possibly cross it where the laws of the NW are concerned but that still doesn't make it the right thing to do. Laws can & should be changed sometimes. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

ummmmmmmmmm what did I type to get an eye roll?

so sorry! I meant to put a smiley! 

[Big P]

6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Many of those men left behind families they cared about as much as Jon cared about Arya.  None of them ran off and abandoned their vows to help their families during the war of the five kings.  They are better men and boys than Jon.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

27 minutes ago, Intel XEON said:

How does NOT helping your family make you a better man/boy/person? 

How can Jon be said to have "run off" to help Arya when that isn't why he was leaving & he knew very well Ramsay didn't have Arya? 

Jon didn't go to help his father or brother in tWot5K either. Nor did he run off to avenge their deaths - or the deaths of his little brothers. 

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely curious to know your answers to this. 

[Tagganaro]

On 10/3/2017 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

I fully understand why Mance did what he did. I might have done something similar - although I'd not have decided to actively hunt and slaughter my former brothers as Mance did - but it is still childish behavior. The NW wears black. And Mance swore a vow. He is not behaving like an adult there. Mance is a man who owes everything to the NW. They took him in, made him a man, trained him at arms, taught him how to lead men. Nobody forced him to swear that vow and he did it of his own free will, knowing what it meant. 

I know this isn't a Mance thread but I would not characterize Mance breaking his vow as childish and I'm not sure I would characterize Mance's decision to join the NW as one of free will.  It's what makes his backstory so compelling to me.  We don't know the specifics of how he arrived at the Wall, but we know he was born as a wildling and that he ended up at the Wall after some wildling raiders were put to the sword.  Perhaps that included his wildling mom or his NW dad?  Qhorin Halfhand outright states that when Mance left the NW, he was just returning home.  That's not childish to me at all.

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This somewhat more complex. It was Stannis who did not execute Mance, not Jon. Jon convinced him not to do it but back when the execution was discussed Jon's issue was about the message Mance's execution would send to the wildlings.

After Jon discovered that Rattleshirt was Mance he could have seized him, of course, but I don't think he could have executed him without Stannis' leave. Or rather - if he had done it without Stannis' leave that might have caused him severe problems down the road.

 

Jon could have most certainly executed Mance or any of the wildlings at the Wall.  When Jon thinks that Melisandre is talking about sending Rattleshirt after Arya (before she reveals the glamour), he threatens to have his head before allowing him to leave.  Stannis is gone and Jon is the power at the Wall.  Besides that, Stannis believes Mance to be dead and explicitly commanded that Mance be killed- he would have no issue with Jon killing Mance.  The only problems that could be caused would be between Stannis and Melisandre.  

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Sending him out to do his dirty work was insane, though.

I would say careless, but as has been discussed here, we need a little more info about what is actually happening with Mance and Melisandre and what Mance's plan was and whether Melisandre was involved.  Again, Jon did not send Mance to Winterfell to kidnap Arya, he sent him to Long Lake to rescue an already escaped Arya who Jon feared was stuck on a dying horse and wouldn't make it to him.  Perhaps an irrelevant distinction, but to me it is relevant.  It's what makes Arya's situation similar to Alys Karstark's, where you see a conflict between the neutrality practice of the NW and Jon's basic moral sensibilities.  

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I know this isn't a Mance thread but I would not characterize Mance breaking his vow as childish and I'm not sure I would characterize Mance's decision to join the NW as one of free will.  It's what makes his backstory so compelling to me.  We don't know the specifics of how he arrived at the Wall, but we know he was born as a wildling and that he ended up at the Wall after some wildling raiders were put to the sword.  Perhaps that included his wildling mom or his NW dad?  Qhorin Halfhand outright states that when Mance left the NW, he was just returning home.  That's not childish to me at all.

Mance knew what the Watch was and what he as a sworn brother of the Night's Watch was signing up for when he spoke his vow. If he was more drawn to the wildling lifestyle he could have gone back to his mother's lands before he swore his vow. Nobody forced him. He made a choice. And then he betrayed his brothers and actively hunted and killed them. More importantly, he tried to bring the very Wall and its defenders down he once himself protected. Mance is a pretty disgusting man if you judge him by his actions and intentions. He is also a very caring and interesting man but that is only half the coin there.

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Jon could have most certainly executed Mance or any of the wildlings at the Wall.  When Jon thinks that Melisandre is talking about sending Rattleshirt after Arya (before she reveals the glamour), he threatens to have his head before allowing him to leave.  Stannis is gone and Jon is the power at the Wall.  Besides that, Stannis believes Mance to be dead and explicitly commanded that Mance be killed- he would have no issue with Jon killing Mance.  The only problems that could be caused would be between Stannis and Melisandre.  

It is true that Stannis gave Rattleshirt-Mance to Jon - that's what makes Mance's rescue attempt Jon's responsibility. He let the dog off the chain, so to speak, and in this world a master, lord, or king is responsible for the actions of his sworn men - and Rattleshirt-Mance actually swore to be Jon's man, if you reread your stuff. In that sense Jon is responsible for anything Mance and his women do - just as Eustace Osgrey was responsible for the actions of Bennis and Dunk while there were his sworn swords. And if you carefully read Jon's chapters he himself knows and accepts that. He knows what he has done, what Mance did under his orders, and he accepts the consequences. He does not hide behind technicalities. In a sense he is rather happy about the Pink Letter because it means that he can now drop the pretense and do what he wanted to do all along - crush the Boltons and all the other enemies of House Stark.

However, my point here was that Stannis had something in mind when he decided to spare Mance's life and allow him to live at Castle Black under the guise of Rattleshirt. He was there to advise Jon, to help him become a leader and warrior - just think of the lesson he taught Jon in the practice yard. If Jon had decided to (publicly) execute the very man whose life Stannis had spared following Jon's advice such an action would have consequences. Not necessarily lethal consequences but still dire consequences. You don't convince Stannis to bend the rules and then stick to the rules and make Stannis look like man who doesn't uphold the law.

You are mistaken when you believe Stannis doesn't know that Mance is alive. It is very obvious that he made the call. Mel would never fool Stannis is such a manner nor would Stannis himself give a man like Rattleshirt to Jon as advisor.

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I would say careless, but as has been discussed here, we need a little more info about what is actually happening with Mance and Melisandre and what Mance's plan was and whether Melisandre was involved.  Again, Jon did not send Mance to Winterfell to kidnap Arya, he sent him to Long Lake to rescue an already escaped Arya who Jon feared was stuck on a dying horse and wouldn't make it to him.  Perhaps an irrelevant distinction, but to me it is relevant.  It's what makes Arya's situation similar to Alys Karstark's, where you see a conflict between the neutrality practice of the NW and Jon's basic moral sensibilities.

The Karstark thing can be seen as treason, too. Jon has no right to grant Alys Karstark sanctuary at the Wall. He should have turned both of them away because the Watch doesn't have issues with either of them. Who rules Karhold isn't the business of the Watch.. I give it to you that it is a lesser form of breaking the rules.

However, 'Arya Stark' is Lady Bolton now, Ramsay's lawful wife. In the Karstark case there is the pretext of defending an unwed maiden against the threat of a suitor who technically has no right to claim her. But the married Arya Bolton belongs to Ramsay now. It does not really matter whether Jon's man Mance breaks her out of Winterfell or whether he finds her on the road and brings her to Castle Black. Jon has no right to harbor her there, nor any right to hide her beyond the Wall or in Essos or wherever he intended to send her. 

Stealing a man's wife is a very serious offense in this society. Just look what Robert did to Rhaegar in the wake of the Lyanna affair. And the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch has no right or place to interfere in any of those affairs.

[Clegane'sPup]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the married Arya Bolton belongs to Ramsay now. It does not really matter whether Jon's man Mance breaks her out of Winterfell or whether he finds her on the road and brings her to Castle Black. Jon has no right to harbor her there, nor any right to hide her beyond the Wall or in Essos or wherever he intended to send her. 

There are no absolutes in Martin’s story hence the much spouted grayness of the human condition.

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stealing a man's wife is a very serious offense in this society. Just look what Robert did to Rhaegar in the wake of the Lyanna affair. And the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch has no right or place to interfere in any of those affairs.

Lyanna was not the Lord of Storm’s End wife. Apparently Brandon Stark received word that his sister was taken by the son of the King of Westeros. After the death of the Lord of WF and his heir, the King of Westeros called for the heads of Eddard & Robert which led to an uprising.

Ramsey wants LC Snow to return fArya and Theon (Reek). Jon does not have them. Therefore Jon cannot return them.

Ramsey has threatened to cut out the LC heart and eat it. “Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.”   LV, what do Bolton’s do? They flay.

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

However, my point here was that Stannis had something in mind when he decided to spare Mance's life and allow him to live at Castle Black under the guise of Rattleshirt.

Nope, Martin had something in mind and that something was that Mance would go to WF for yet undisclosed reasons.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

There are no absolutes in Martin’s story hence the much spouted grayness of the human condition.

So what? We are talking here whether Mance was justified in abandoning the men who fed him, clothed him, treated him as one of their own after he swore a sacred vow. And then actively hunting them down, killing them, and threatening to destroy the Wall that stand between mankind and the Others.

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Lyanna was not the Lord of Storm’s End wife. Apparently Brandon Stark received word that his sister was taken by the son of the King of Westeros. After the death of the Lord of WF and his heir, the King of Westeros called for the heads of Eddard & Robert which led to an uprising.

That is not what motivated Robert. Robert hated Rhaegar, not Aerys. And he hated Rhaegar for what he did with (or to) his betrothed. My point here is that if Robert - or Walder Frey or the Laughing Storm - can react the way they did just over a betrothal and a broken marriage contract how much more is Ramsay justified in hunting Jon down and skinning him alive, say, after the man actually abducted his wife and/or kept her from him.

He would be justified hunting down any man doing that to him. But the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch isn't 'any man'. He has sworn a sacred vow to defend the realms of men not declare war on them - or steal the wives of the rulers of the realms of men - and thus he should not have done what he did. It is as simple as that.

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Ramsey wants LC Snow to return fArya and Theon (Reek). Jon does not have them. Therefore Jon cannot return them.

Well, then he should tell Ramsay so, right? Or hand him the people that are in his power - Melisandre, Selyse, Shireen.

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Ramsey has threatened to cut out the LC heart and eat it. “Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.”   LV, what do Bolton’s do? They flay.

Ramsay has fun with all ways of killing, too.

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Nope, Martin had something in mind and that something was that Mance would go to WF for yet undisclosed reasons.

Mance was sent to fetch Arya back, that's it. That's what he and his women try to do. And Jon allowed them to try what they did.

[Clegane'sPup]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So what? We are talking here whether Mance was justified in abandoning the men who fed him, clothed him, treated him as one of their own after he swore a sacred vow. And then actively hunting them down, killing them, and threatening to destroy the Wall that stand between mankind and the Others.

There are no absolutes in Martin’s story hence the much spouted grayness of the human condition. When speaking of justification it is merely a person’s rationalization and projection transposed upon a fictional book character.

Mance was supposedly taken in as a child and indoctrinated into the NW. Yes, Mance is a deserter who joined the wildlings/free folk and became the King Beyond the Wall.  So again I come to the grayness of the human condition ----the wildlings fought the NW and the NW believe the wildings to be the enemy. Yet what did Mance say when Slynt & Thorne sent Jon Snow out to treat with Mance?

A Storm of Swords - Jon X      "Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ."       "But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"

If people want to gripe about LC Snow breaking his vows that is okay with me. Just get it right. If LC Snow broke vows he didn’t do it to save Arya. The letter says “I want my bride back” meaning that Ramsey does not have her in his possession and clearly LC Snow does not have Jeyne yet because last I heard Stannis does.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

My point here is that if Robert - or Walder Frey or the Laughing Storm - can react the way they did just over a betrothal and a broken marriage contract how much more is Ramsay justified in hunting Jon down and skinning him alive, say, after the man actually abducted his wife and/or kept her from him.

He would be justified hunting down any man doing that to him. But the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch isn't 'any man'. He has sworn a sacred vow to defend the realms of men not declare war on them - or steal the wives of the rulers of the realms of men - and thus he should not have done what he did. It is as simple as that.

Well anyone can react any way they want. Doesn't make it right or justified. Robert believed Lyanna to be kidnapped. If he were told she ran off with Rhaegar the story may be very different. Besides that it's against the law to force someone to say the wedding vows. Jeyne was forced & given no choice. Possibly making the wedding null & void. Alys was going to be forced as well. 

 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, then he should tell Ramsay so, right?

Yeah, I'm sure that would have worked well. 

J: I don't have your bride or Theon

R: Oh? My bad. Truce?

No. 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Or hand him the people that are in his power - Melisandre, Selyse, Shireen.

You're joking right? Jon has sworn not to take part in the matters of the realm - not to listen to every lord that wants to command him to do something. 

How in the world can you believe Jon has no right to take part in the he rescue of a woman from a forced marriage but that Ramsay has a right to Stannis daughter, priest, AND wife? 

That's just ridiculous. 

If Jon had responded to Ramsay's threats to eat his heart by saying he didn't have his bride & reek & sending Stannis family to him not only would he be seen as weak & traitorous but also people like you would scream to the high heavens what a terrible, stupid person he was. He was in a lose-lose situation & made the best of it. 

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mance knew what the Watch was and what he as a sworn brother of the Night's Watch was signing up for when he spoke his vow. If he was more drawn to the wildling lifestyle he could have gone back to his mother's lands before he swore his vow. Nobody forced him. He made a choice. And then he betrayed his brothers and actively hunted and killed them. More importantly, he tried to bring the very Wall and its defenders down he once himself protected. Mance is a pretty disgusting man if you judge him by his actions and intentions. He is also a very caring and interesting man but that is only half the coin there.

We have no idea what Mance knew of the Watch or whether he knew what he was signing up for or whether he had any free will to leave, especially as a child.  I agree he betrayed his brothers, but I don't quite agree he actively hunted and killed them and I certainly don't believe he "tried" to bring the Wall down- it was an effort of last resort.  But yeah, if you want to talk about "half the coin" you have to talk about the survival of an entire group of people in the wildlings, which you seem to be ignoring.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is true that Stannis gave Rattleshirt-Mance to Jon - that's what makes Mance's rescue attempt Jon's responsibility. He let the dog off the chain, so to speak, and in this world a master, lord, or king is responsible for the actions of his sworn men - and Rattleshirt-Mance actually swore to be Jon's man, if you reread your stuff. In that sense Jon is responsible for anything Mance and his women do - just as Eustace Osgrey was responsible for the actions of Bennis and Dunk while there were his sworn swords. And if you carefully read Jon's chapters he himself knows and accepts that. He knows what he has done, what Mance did under his orders, and he accepts the consequences. He does not hide behind technicalities. In a sense he is rather happy about the Pink Letter because it means that he can now drop the pretense and do what he wanted to do all along - crush the Boltons and all the other enemies of House Stark.

However, my point here was that Stannis had something in mind when he decided to spare Mance's life and allow him to live at Castle Black under the guise of Rattleshirt. He was there to advise Jon, to help him become a leader and warrior - just think of the lesson he taught Jon in the practice yard. If Jon had decided to (publicly) execute the very man whose life Stannis had spared following Jon's advice such an action would have consequences. Not necessarily lethal consequences but still dire consequences. You don't convince Stannis to bend the rules and then stick to the rules and make Stannis look like man who doesn't uphold the law.

You are mistaken when you believe Stannis doesn't know that Mance is alive. It is very obvious that he made the call. Mel would never fool Stannis is such a manner nor would Stannis himself give a man like Rattleshirt to Jon as advisor.

It is not obvious that Stannis knows Mance is alive...It's possible but unlikely IMO.  Melisandre, speaking of Mance, says to Jon that Mance owes Jon his life and that "only his life's blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law... but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall...a gift from the lord of light...and me."  Some people interpret this as her telling Jon he persuaded Stannis to keep Mance alive, but the bolded section to me heavily indicates she did this without Stannis's knowledge.  Plus, just knowing Stannis as a character this is not the kind of thing he would agree to IMO.  I think everything involving Rattleshirt/Mance is just Melisandre, and nothing to do with Stannis.  We may find out differently in TWOW, but until then it is certainly not obvious.

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The Karstark thing can be seen as treason, too. Jon has no right to grant Alys Karstark sanctuary at the Wall. He should have turned both of them away because the Watch doesn't have issues with either of them. Who rules Karhold isn't the business of the Watch.. I give it to you that it is a lesser form of breaking the rules.

 

It's a damned if you do-damned if you don't scenario with Alys/Cregan.  There is no maintaining neutrality- turning them both away is entirely giving Cregan what he wants- Jon and the NW would be entirely complicit in Cregan's unlawful scheme to steal Karhold.  Jon as LC of the NW, and head of that household in essence, has every right to grant someone sanctuary at the Wall and Cregan has no right to demand Jon revoke that sanctuary.