Bowen Marsh was right to remove Jon from office.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

There are no absolutes in Martin’s story hence the much spouted grayness of the human condition. When speaking of justification it is merely a person’s rationalization and projection transposed upon a fictional book character.

George likes to put his characters in moral and ethical dilemmas. But that doesn't mean there is no right and wrong. It was wrong of Jaime to try to kill Bran. It is understandable why he felt the urge to do it but that doesn't make it justified. The fact that George portrays criminals as people - which they are, they are people - doesn't mean they are not criminals.

And there certainly are rather black characters in those books, and perhaps even a few white ones. After all, there is almost no gray we know of in, say, Maester Aemon, Dunk and Egg as we know them, Ned Stark, Davos, and Brienne.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Mance was supposedly taken in as a child and indoctrinated into the NW. Yes, Mance is a deserter who joined the wildlings/free folk and became the King Beyond the Wall.  So again I come to the grayness of the human condition ----the wildlings fought the NW and the NW believe the wildings to be the enemy. Yet what did Mance say when Slynt & Thorne sent Jon Snow out to treat with Mance?

A Storm of Swords - Jon X      "Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ."       "But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"

That is what they say after they have sent the Weeper to the Bridge of Skulls to slaughter the men at the Shadow Tower. That's what they say after they sent Jarl and Styr to Castle Black to kill the men there. Mance does not want to bring down the Wall literally, no, but inadvertently he is still its biggest enemy aside from the Others themselves because he is working to destroy the Night's Watch.

Let's assume for a moment Stannis did not show up. Mance had tried the gate again the next day and he would have succeeded then. His people would have raided the stores and provisions of the NW and continued down south. Some may have lingered behind to deal with Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower, others may have climbed the Wall plucked down the few crows still alive up there.

The Watch would have been finished and the Wall would have been defenseless when the Others came. Perhaps the gate at Castle Black would even be open for them to march their wights through...

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

If people want to gripe about LC Snow breaking his vows that is okay with me. Just get it right. If LC Snow broke vows he didn’t do it to save Arya. The letter says “I want my bride back” meaning that Ramsey does not have her in his possession and clearly LC Snow does not have Jeyne yet because last I heard Stannis does.

Again, Jon could sent a letter back explaining how things are. Try to reach a compromise. Or he could have done everything in his power to find Theon and 'Arya' before Ramsay arrived at the Wall to sent them back to him.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well anyone can react any way they want. Doesn't make it right or justified. Robert believed Lyanna to be kidnapped. If he were told she ran off with Rhaegar the story may be very different. Besides that it's against the law to force someone to say the wedding vows. Jeyne was forced & given no choice. Possibly making the wedding null & void. Alys was going to be forced as well. 

This isn't about what the woman wants. It is about the honor of your house and your honor as a man. No other man steals what belongs to you or your house. 

Jon has no idea whether 'Arya' married Ramsay of her own free will or not. Even if he knew it is not his business. He is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Ramsay could rape and skin Arya alive in front of Jon Snow and the man should still just watch this thing happening without interfering.

But when we think about it we only know that a marriage rite according to the Seven respects the wishes of the bride. A tree wedding may ignore them if we consider the validity of the marriage of Ramsay and Lady Hornwood. Ramsay abducted, forcefully married, and then killed this woman yet nobody actually questions the validity of the marriage.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I'm sure that would have worked well. 

J: I don't have your bride or Theon

R: Oh? My bad. Truce?

No. 

Whether it would have worked or not is irrelevant. I'm not claiming Ramsay is a man you can trust or even a man you can reason with. He is a monster. But Jon has no right to endanger the Watch and his sworn brothers by actually provoking the Boltons into attacking the Night's Watch. And that's what he did.

It does not only go against custom but also against the mission of the NW. It is supposed to defend the realms of men not attack them. And there is no hint whatsoever that the Boltons would have intended to turn against the NW after they had dealt with Stannis.

The Watch is very much honored as an institution in the North, is it not?

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You're joking right? Jon has sworn not to take part in the matters of the realm - not to listen to every lord that wants to command him to do something. 

He took part in the affairs of the Realm when he advised Stannis how to attack that Realm, when he sent him letters warning him of the Karstark betrayal, and when he sent Mance down south to bring his sister to Castle Black.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How in the world can you believe Jon has no right to take part in the he rescue of a woman from a forced marriage but that Ramsay has a right to Stannis daughter, priest, AND wife? 

That's just ridiculous. 

According to the Pink Letter Ramsay Bolton has defeated Stannis and his entire army. If that's true then Ramsay is in control of the North and Jon would be well advised to meet his demands in light of the fact that he actually helped Stannis to attack the Boltons.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If Jon had responded to Ramsay's threats to eat his heart by saying he didn't have his bride & reek & sending Stannis family to him not only would he be seen as weak & traitorous but also people like you would scream to the high heavens what a terrible, stupid person he was. He was in a lose-lose situation & made the best of it. 

If Jon truly cared about his vow and his duty as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch he would never have allowed Mance to go. He cares more about Arya than his brothers at the Wall or the mission to defend the realms of men.

After he has done that he cannot turn back, sure, but what he does is still utterly moronic. A smart man would have trusted his wolf, Mel's warnings, and actually kept proper bodyguards to guard his person. And he most certainly wouldn't have gone with that ridiculous charade they staged in the Shieldhall but actually tried to gather some tangible information about what actually had transpired at Winterfell. 

The time for the charade would have come after it was confirmed that Stannis was indeed dead and the Boltons still in the shape to threaten the NW. If neither of that was true then there was no reason for Jon to break his vow or his sworn brothers to kill him, right?

And that's the tragedy of the whole situation. The moron got himself killed for no good reason because Arya never was at Winterfell and Stannis wasn't defeated in a battle lasting seven days.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, Jon could sent a letter back explaining how things are. Try to reach a compromise. Or he could have done everything in his power to find Theon and 'Arya' before Ramsay arrived at the Wall to sent them back to him.

He could have but why would he? He is under no obligation to do so & besides that it would be a horrible thing to do. Theon is being held captive, against his will, by Ramsay. Is that not illegal? Jon would be an accomplice to kidnapping if he did this. 

 

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This isn't about what the woman wants. It is about the honor of your house and your honor as a man. No other man steals what belongs to you or your house. 

Jon has no idea whether 'Arya' married Ramsay of her own free will or not. Even if he knew it is not his business. He is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Ramsay could rape and skin Arya alive in front of Jon Snow and the man should still just watch this thing happening without interfering.

But when we think about it we only know that a marriage rite according to the Seven respects the wishes of the bride. A tree wedding may ignore them if we consider the validity of the marriage of Ramsay and Lady Hornwood. Ramsay abducted, forcefully married, and then killed this woman yet nobody actually questions the validity of the marriage.

Morally it is absolutely about what the woman wants. Legally it is absolutely about what the woman wants. 

He doesn't know if Arya married him of her own free will but he does know she has "escaped" from him. He does know some of the wickedness Ramsay is capable of. He does know Alys is being forced against her will. 

Just because he has sworn not to meddle in the matters of the realm does not mean he has to or should watch a man commit a crime & just allow it to happen. 

You could be right about the tree wedding but since it's never been stated as an exception I'm fairly confident that no one in Westeros can legally be forced to take wedding vows. 

IIRC people do question the validity of the the marriage to Lady Hornwood. I will have to look but I'm pretty sure they question quite a bit about how all thus went down. 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Jon truly cared about his vow and his duty as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch he would never have allowed Mance to go. He cares more about Arya than his brothers at the Wall or the mission to defend the realms of men.

I don't see Jon not cutting down Mance as evidence that he doesn't care about his vow & his duty. He cares about Arya - yes. As well as his duty, his vow, & his brothers. If he didn't care about all of that why didn't he help Robb? Why didn't he avenge Ned or Bran & Rickon? 

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

After he has done that he cannot turn back, sure, but what he does is still utterly moronic. A smart man would have trusted his wolf, Mel's warnings, and actually kept proper bodyguards to guard his person.

We can agree here. Hindsight is 20/20 though & he doesn't really have any reason to heed the warnings of Melisandre. He should have kept Ghost & guards though. 

 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And he most certainly wouldn't have gone with that ridiculous charade they staged in the Shieldhall but actually tried to gather some tangible information about what actually had transpired at Winterfell. 

Ideally, yes, he would have gathered more tangible info but how was he going to accomplish that other than by either going to WF or sending someone to WF? Both things you are condemning him for. The end result would have been the same. 

 

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The time for the charade would have come after it was confirmed that Stannis was indeed dead and the Boltons still in the shape to threaten the NW. If neither of that was true then there was no reason for Jon to break his vow or his sworn brothers to kill him, right?

I don't know. There are those who could argue that strategically it is better to surprise his enemy rather than wait for him to come to the wall. Not to mention that puts the NW men in danger. We will have to agree to disagree that planning on going to WF was breaking a vow. 

 

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And that's the tragedy of the whole situation. The moron got himself killed for no good reason because Arya never was at Winterfell and Stannis wasn't defeated in a battle lasting seven days

We will have to see if Stannis is defeated or not but as far as fArya goes it doesn't really make much difference in terms of this discussion that she wasn't actually Arya. 

[Clegane'sPup]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George likes to put his characters in moral and ethical dilemmas. But that doesn't mean there is no right and wrong.

I have never met Martin. He may do as you say. It still comes back to the reader placing judgment on his characters actions and motivations. Whose judgement, mine or yours is in line with what Martin is trying to convey? Perhaps we are both wrong.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, Jon could sent a letter back explaining how things are. Try to reach a compromise. Or he could have done everything in his power to find Theon and 'Arya' before Ramsay arrived at the Wall to sent them back to him.

Evidently that is not the story Martin had in mind.

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He could have but why would he? He is under no obligation to do so & besides that it would be a horrible thing to do. Theon is being held captive, against his will, by Ramsay. Is that not illegal? Jon would be an accomplice to kidnapping if he did this. 

Jon Snow isn't some sovereign monarch or anything. He is the head of a military order the realms of men support and finance. The Watch and its commander only exist at the leisure of the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms. Ramsay is one such a ruler, a representative of King Tommen in the North.

If the king or one of his duly elected representatives gives you an order you obey. It is made quite clear that King Robert is the king of all the people of the Seven Kingdoms, even the men of the Night's Watch. That's why people are sucking up to Tyrion during his visit. That is why Ser Waymar Royce attacks the Other in the Prologue of the entire series in the name of King Robert.

The Watch is supposed to be neutral. That means you do not resist when you are giving a command. Especially not by a person who has the backing of the king and the military power to destroy you.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Morally it is absolutely about what the woman wants. Legally it is absolutely about what the woman wants. 

Not in this world. Women who enter into marriages are effectively bought and sold in this world. If that wasn't the case then Sansa and Jeyne and Daenerys would never have been bought and sold by the men who bought and sold them. Even a nice guy arranged marriage like Cat-Ned is not build on trust or love or even sympathy. The marriage is the result of a contract. Marrying Cat is the price Ned has to pay to get Hoster Tully's swords.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He doesn't know if Arya married him of her own free will but he does know she has "escaped" from him. He does know some of the wickedness Ramsay is capable of. He does know Alys is being forced against her will. 

He doesn't know anything of that. He speculates. And Melisandre tells him about the vision she had. A vision she interpreted. She thought it might be Arya but the idea that she was fleeing was part of her interpretation. It turned out to be the correct part of her interpretation - Alys was fleeing, too - but this doesn't mean anyone knew the details as to why she fled, right?

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Just because he has sworn not to meddle in the matters of the realm does not mean he has to or should watch a man commit a crime & just allow it to happen. 

No. That's exactly what it means. Or do you think Black Harren's brother didn't want to use those 10,000 men under his command to march down south and avenge his royal brother? The Watch takes no part. Tyrion and Yoren traveled for hundreds of leagues on the Kingsroad yet when Catelyn seized Tyrion in the inn Yoren did nothing to help his traveling companion, a man he most likely had grown to like.

It is of course difficult to maintain that attitude but it is a crucial part of being a sworn brother of the Night's Watch means. Not caring what happens in the realms of men and remaining solely focused on the duty to protect the Wall against the enemies from the north is what allowed the First Men and Andals to form the NW in the first place. Back in the days of the Hundred Kingdoms the Watch must have been the strongest standing military force in all of Westeros - yet no Lord Commander ever took that force to carve out a large kingdom of his own in the region. The temptation must have been there all the time.

The rules ensured that this did not happen. The rules and the strict enforcing of those rules. Rules that led to old Lord Ryswell sentence his own beloved son to death because he abandoned the Wall. That's how discipline is enforced and maintained. And a crucial part of that is that you forget what the people you serve with at the Wall did when they were back home in the Seven Kingdoms, just as you better forget what's happening to your friends and family back home right now.

If you don't, then you cannot serve aside a man from a rival or enemy house or kingdom. And back in the ancient days pretty much every black brother must have had a dozen or more sworn brothers who were coming from families or regions his family or region was at war with.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You could be right about the tree wedding but since it's never been stated as an exception I'm fairly confident that no one in Westeros can legally be forced to take wedding vows. 

You would have to prove that a person was forced, though. And why should be the judge of that? Jeyne and Sansa and Dany married their husbands of their own free will. There are witnesses who can confirm that.

The crucial part seems to be whether a marriage was also consummated. And that's confirmed for both Lady Hornwood and 'Arya'.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

IIRC people do question the validity of the the marriage to Lady Hornwood. I will have to look but I'm pretty sure they question quite a bit about how all thus went down. 

Rodrik Cassel makes it clear to Bran and the reader that Roose Bolton is going to lay claim to the Hornwood lands on the basis of Ramsay's marriage to Lady Hornwood in any case, never mind the fact that Ramsay himself is dead and murdered Lady Hornwood before he was killed (or that's what Rodrik believes). That seems to indicate that a rapist marriage isn't even void when the rapist also killed his wife to claim her lands and castle.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't see Jon not cutting down Mance as evidence that he doesn't care about his vow & his duty. He cares about Arya - yes. As well as his duty, his vow, & his brothers. If he didn't care about all of that why didn't he help Robb? Why didn't he avenge Ned or Bran & Rickon? 

You seem to make the same mistake Jon does. I didn't mean his Stark brothers. I meant the only brothers he should have at this point - his sworn brothers in the Night's Watch. He endangered not only his own life by his actions but also theirs. The men who elected Jon their lord commander didn't want him to make his sister his top priority. That priority should be the Watch and its mission.

And don't forget that Jon actually tried to avenge Ned and join Robb. It was not his decision to return. He broke his vows all the way back in AGoT. The fact that his actions didn't have consequences back then doesn't change the fact that he made the wrong choice already all the way back then.

He never had the chance to act on the Red Wedding or Bran & Rickon until he became Lord Commander. And then he eventually did turn against the Boltons, didn't he?

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We can agree here. Hindsight is 20/20 though & he doesn't really have any reason to heed the warnings of Melisandre. He should have kept Ghost & guards though. 

He has every reason to heed Melisandre's warnings. She proves two times in ADwD that she actually has visions of the future. First with the eyeless heads they find beyond the Wall and then with the girl that turns out to be Alys Karstark. Jon is a moron when he ignores the threat to his own life. Sure, perhaps the skulls represented something differently but only a fool ignores the possibility that the skulls represent the possibility that he is going to be murdered by people he trusts.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ideally, yes, he would have gathered more tangible info but how was he going to accomplish that other than by either going to WF or sending someone to WF? Both things you are condemning him for. The end result would have been the same. 

Sending out envoys and scouts isn't oathbreaking. It is in the best interest of the Watch to know who won the battle at or near Winterfell.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know. There are those who could argue that strategically it is better to surprise his enemy rather than wait for him to come to the wall. Not to mention that puts the NW men in danger. We will have to agree to disagree that planning on going to WF was breaking a vow. 

Well, I suggest you reread the portion of Jon's last chapter where he openly declares that he is breaking his vow by going to Winterfell alone if nobody joins him.

And, no, Jon's entire plan there was both suicidal and utterly moronic. Winterfell is a long way from the Wall and Stannis had about 5,000 Northmen and knights when he marched against Winterfell. Jon has a bunch of undisciplined wildlings. If Ramsay really defeated Stannis and sat secure behind the walls of Winterfell then the entire campaign is doomed from the start. Ramsay would have sent the letter with the intention to draw Jon out so he would be ready for him. And there is no chance whatsoever that the wildlings would be able to mount a siege - especially not in the snow. They lack both the training and the discipline. Most of them would never have a seen a proper castle in their lives, let alone a huge and formidable castle like Winterfell.

In addition, if the Boltons crushed Stannis they should now control the entire North. The Northmen hate the wildlings. Leading them against Winterfell to save Mance Rayder is about the worst thing Jon could possibly do. It would unite the entire North against him.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We will have to see if Stannis is defeated or not but as far as fArya goes it doesn't really make much difference in terms of this discussion that she wasn't actually Arya. 

Sure it does. Because Jeyne Poole is nothing to Jon. He would never have sent Mance to save her. In fact, chances are pretty good that he would have endangered her life by publicly declaring that she was a fraud and impostor if he had known the truth.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have never met Martin. He may do as you say. It still comes back to the reader placing judgment on his characters actions and motivations. Whose judgement, mine or yours is in line with what Martin is trying to convey? Perhaps we are both wrong.

Well, some decisions are supposed to be controversial and cause the kind of discussion we are having here. That is why you can make a case that Bowen Marsh was indeed justified when he killed Jon. George didn't write him as a villain. He isn't the nicest or smartest character in the story but he isn't a villain or even a thug. 

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Evidently that is not the story Martin had in mind.

Sure, George had a story in mind where Jon publicly breaks his vows and is then killed for that crime.

[Mon ami]

Pink Letter

The letter spilled the beans and exposed Jon's illegal activities.  The letter was just the messenger of bad news.  Jon had been up to no good and it was his attempts to take Arya away from Ramsay that caused the pink letter.  In other words, the pink letter is the Bolton response to Jon's attack on their house.  I want to make clear that sending your henchmen to take Arya away from Ramsay is an attack on the Bolton family. 

Stabbing

The stabbing was not Bowen delivering judgement and punishing Jon.  It's not revenge.  It's not hate for Jon.  It was Bowen the desperate officer of the night watch carrying out his duties to stop his crazed Lord Commander from doing something even more wrong that what he's already done.  Jon was about to attack the Boltons.  Bowen had no choice but to do what he can to prevent Jon from raiding the Boltons.  Stabbing Jon was violent but given the situation that Jon put Bowen in, it was the right thing to do.  Bowen did the right thing when he stabbed Jon.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon Snow isn't some sovereign monarch or anything. He is the head of a military order the realms of men support and finance. The Watch and its commander only exist at the leisure of the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms. Ramsay is one such a ruler, a representative of King Tommen in the North.

Ramsay is ONE such ruler. What happens when ALL the other rulers say what Jon did by giving fArya & Theon to Ramsay is aiding & abetting a criminal? What happens when The King himself says what he did was wrong? 

 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

the king or one of his duly elected representatives gives you an order you obey. It is made quite clear that King Robert is the king of all the people of the Seven Kingdoms, even the men of the Night's Watch. That's why people are sucking up to Tyrion during his visit. That is why Ser Waymar Royce attacks the Other in the Prologue of the entire series in the name of King Robert.

Well there is a couple issues here atm. First & foremost there isn't one King. Does Jon have to take commands from all of Kings? Or just the one he believes is the rightful King? King Robert was indeed king of all Seven Kingdoms. King Tommen is at best a King over a realm in rebellion & at worst a bastard with no right to the throne. If we are going in order of succession Stannis is the rightful King. Should Jon only listen to his duly elected representatives? Because I'm pretty sure Stannis would not be in agreement with Jon giving Ramsay anyone or anything he demands. 

 

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Watch is supposed to be neutral. That means you do not resist when you are giving a command. Especially not by a person who has the backing of the king and the military power to destroy you.

Yes neutral - not an army to be commanded by any Lord that wants something from them. What if a Lord demands the NW take their side in a war? Does the LC have to listen then? Or does he only have to listen when it's involving the torture of someone going back to their torturer? At any rate as it's been stated again & again Jon didn't have his bride or Theon to give him. You stated above he should have done his best to find them. If the LC of the NW had to listen & comply with every request of every Lord in Westeros there would be no time for the NW at all. He is certainly under no obligation to find Theon & Arya for Ramsay. 

 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not in this world. Women who enter into marriages are effectively bought and sold in this world. If that wasn't the case then Sansa and Jeyne and Daenerys would never have been bought and sold by the men who bought and sold them. Even a nice guy arranged marriage like Cat-Ned is not build on trust or love or even sympathy. The marriage is the result of a contract. Marrying Cat is the price Ned has to pay to get Hoster Tully's swords.

They are but there must be some reason as to why it's explicitly stated that someone cannot be forced to say the vows. Sansa was forced, Jeyne was forced, Dany was forced. Cat was not. Her marriage may not have been out of love but she was a willing participant. It is the result of a contract BUT both parties were willing to engage in the contract. 

 

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He doesn't know anything of that. He speculates. And Melisandre tells him about the vision she had. A vision she interpreted. She thought it might be Arya but the idea that she was fleeing was part of her interpretation. It turned out to be the correct part of her interpretation - Alys was fleeing, too - but this doesn't mean anyone knew the details as to why she fled, right?

Yes he speculates. With good reason. Melisandre interpreted her vision wrong here & Jon mostly believes it. He apparently doesn't believe this:

 

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He has every reason to heed Melisandre's warnings. She proves two times in ADwD that she actually has visions of the future. First with the eyeless heads they find beyond the Wall and then with the girl that turns out to be Alys Karstark. Jon is a moron when he ignores the threat to his own life. Sure, perhaps the skulls represented something differently but only a fool ignores the possibility that the skulls represent the possibility that he is going to be murdered by people he trusts.

She proves she has visions & that she interprets them incorrectly as often as she interprets correctly. Again, Jon should have kept Ghost & guards with him just in case Mel was right. 

 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No. That's exactly what it means. Or do you think Black Harren's brother didn't want to use those 10,000 men under his command to march down south and avenge his royal brother? The Watch takes no part. Tyrion and Yoren traveled for hundreds of leagues on the Kingsroad yet when Catelyn seized Tyrion in the inn Yoren did nothing to help his traveling companion, a man he most likely had grown to like.

These are very different circumstances. Keeping the NW out of a war meant to avenge your brother or any one else - yes that's what they are supposed to do. Catelyn was not committing any crime. She seized Tyrion saying she wanted him to answer for what he was accused of. What if Catelyn raped & then began to flay Tyrion - Because that's what you said of fArya & Ramsay. Do you think Yoren would still do nothing? I think at the very least he would have stopped it because it is not legal to rape & flay people. 

 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is of course difficult to maintain that attitude but it is a crucial part of being a sworn brother of the Night's Watch means. Not caring what happens in the realms of men and remaining solely focused on the duty to protect the Wall against the enemies from the north is what allowed the First Men and Andals to form the NW in the first place. Back in the days of the Hundred Kingdoms the Watch must have been the strongest standing military force in all of Westeros - yet no Lord Commander ever took that force to carve out a large kingdom of his own in the region. The temptation must have been there all the time.

The rules ensured that this did not happen. The rules and the strict enforcing of those rules. Rules that led to old Lord Ryswell sentence his own beloved son to death because he abandoned the Wall. That's how discipline is enforced and maintained. And a crucial part of that is that you forget what the people you serve with at the Wall did when they were back home in the Seven Kingdoms, just as you better forget what's happening to your friends and family back home right now.

If you don't, then you cannot serve aside a man from a rival or enemy house or kingdom. And back in the ancient days pretty much every black brother must have had a dozen or more sworn brothers who were coming from families or regions his family or region was at war with.

Ok but Jon doesn't do any of that. He responds to a threat on his own life. Is that against his vows? 

 

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You would have to prove that a person was forced, though. And why should be the judge of that? Jeyne and Sansa and Dany married their husbands of their own free will. There are witnesses who can confirm that.

The crucial part seems to be whether a marriage was also consummated. And that's confirmed for both Lady Hornwood and 'Arya'.

I imagine the issue of whether or not someone was forced to take their vows will only come up when we have someone in charge willing to punish the other party &/or nullify the marriage. 

 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rodrik Cassel makes it clear to Bran and the reader that Roose Bolton is going to lay claim to the Hornwood lands on the basis of Ramsay's marriage to Lady Hornwood in any case, never mind the fact that Ramsay himself is dead and murdered Lady Hornwood before he was killed (or that's what Rodrik believes). That seems to indicate that a rapist marriage isn't even void when the rapist also killed his wife to claim her lands and castle.

I'll have to reread & get back to you on this one. 

 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You seem to make the same mistake Jon does. I didn't mean his Stark brothers. I meant the only brothers he should have at this point - his sworn brothers in the Night's Watch.

No I'm not talking about his Stark brothers either. He didn't go avenget Ned or Robb or dessert when Robb called his banners because his vows & NW brothers do mean something to him. This was in response to you saying his vows, duty, & NW brothers mean nothing to him or something along those lines. 

 

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The men who elected Jon their lord commander didn't want him to make his sister his top priority. That priority should be the Watch and its mission.

How? How did Jon make his sister his top priority when he is marching on WF in a response to a threat on his own life? 

 

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And don't forget that Jon actually tried to avenge Ned and join Robb. It was not his decision to return. He broke his vows all the way back in AGoT. The fact that his actions didn't have consequences back then doesn't change the fact that he made the wrong choice already all the way back then.

Yes he tried but if it wasn't his decision to return whose was it? If he didn't want too stay why didn't he just leave again? He did not break his vows? He intended on breaking them & his brothers convinced him otherwise. It is no violation of any vow to merely consider dessertion. If he had indeed made too he "wrong choice" back then he would no longer be in the NW, no? 

 

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I suggest you reread the portion of Jon's last chapter where he openly declares that he is breaking his vow by going to Winterfell alone if nobody joins him.

And, no, Jon's entire plan there was both suicidal and utterly moronic. Winterfell is a long way from the Wall and Stannis had about 5,000 Northmen and knights when he marched against Winterfell. Jon has a bunch of undisciplined wildlings. If Ramsay really defeated Stannis and sat secure behind the walls of Winterfell then the entire campaign is doomed from the start. Ramsay would have sent the letter with the intention to draw Jon out so he would be ready for him. And there is no chance whatsoever that the wildlings would be able to mount a siege - especially not in the snow. They lack both the training and the discipline. Most of them would never have a seen a proper castle in their lives, let alone a huge and formidable castle like Winterfell.

In addition, if the Boltons crushed Stannis they should now control the entire North. The Northmen hate the wildlings. Leading them against Winterfell to save Mance Rayder is about the worst thing Jon could possibly do. It would unite the entire North against him.

I'll reread it but if Jon is the ultimate guide on when he has or hasn't broken his vows then you would have to agree he hadn't broken them until that point right? And technically he didn't break them now if it is against his vow to march on WF because he doesn't get the chance to do it. I'm not saying he is innocent of it because had he had the chance he absolutely would have. 

I'm not strategist or military commander so I will concede it could have been a suicide mission, however, he has a bunch of undisciplined wildlings that put up one hell of a fight at the Wall & that are well acclimated to the snow & cold. Whether Ramsay defeated Stannis or not his own army will be depleted after the battle & most likely weak. Theon snuck into WF pretty easily I don't think it's farfetched to believe Jon & the wildlings could especially under the cover of snow. I agree Ramsay would have sent the letter to draw Jon out so Jon is doing exactly what Ramsay wants him to. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sending out envoys and scouts isn't oathbreaking. It is in the best interest of the Watch to know who won the battle at or near Winterfell.

Maybe not but would it not be argued then that Jon sent envoys & scouts to meddle in the matters of the realm? 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure it does. Because Jeyne Poole is nothing to Jon. He would never have sent Mance to save her. In fact, chances are pretty good that he would have endangered her life by publicly declaring that she was a fraud and impostor if he had known the truth.

But it doesn't really matter in this discussion because he does believe it's Arya. He may have done those things upon finding out it wasn't Arya prior to the rescue but I highly doubt when/if he finds out its Jeyne he is going to send her back to Ramsay. He may expose her true identity but it won't endanger her life at that point because she will be safe away from Ramsay. 

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ramsay is ONE such ruler. What happens when ALL the other rulers say what Jon did by giving fArya & Theon to Ramsay is aiding & abetting a criminal? What happens when The King himself says what he did was wrong? 

 

Well there is a couple issues here atm. First & foremost there isn't one King. Does Jon have to take commands from all of Kings? Or just the one he believes is the rightful King? King Robert was indeed king of all Seven Kingdoms. King Tommen is at best a King over a realm in rebellion & at worst a bastard with no right to the throne. If we are going in order of succession Stannis is the rightful King. Should Jon only listen to his duly elected representatives? Because I'm pretty sure Stannis would not be in agreement with Jon giving Ramsay anyone or anything he demands. 

 

Yes neutral - not an army to be commanded by any Lord that wants something from them. What if a Lord demands the NW take their side in a war? Does the LC have to listen then? Or does he only have to listen when it's involving the torture of someone going back to their torturer? At any rate as it's been stated again & again Jon didn't have his bride or Theon to give him. You stated above he should have done his best to find them. If the LC of the NW had to listen & comply with every request of every Lord in Westeros there would be no time for the NW at all. He is certainly under no obligation to find Theon & Arya for Ramsay. 

 

They are but there must be some reason as to why it's explicitly stated that someone cannot be forced to say the vows. Sansa was forced, Jeyne was forced, Dany was forced. Cat was not. Her marriage may not have been out of love but she was a willing participant. It is the result of a contract BUT both parties were willing to engage in the contract. 

 

Yes he speculates. With good reason. Melisandre interpreted her vision wrong here & Jon mostly believes it. He apparently doesn't believe this:

 

She proves she has visions & that she interprets them incorrectly as often as she interprets correctly. Again, Jon should have kept Ghost & guards with him just in case Mel was right. 

 

These are very different circumstances. Keeping the NW out of a war meant to avenge your brother or any one else - yes that's what they are supposed to do. Catelyn was not committing any crime. She seized Tyrion saying she wanted him to answer for what he was accused of. What if Catelyn raped & then began to flay Tyrion - Because that's what you said of fArya & Ramsay. Do you think Yoren would still do nothing? I think at the very least he would have stopped it because it is not legal to rape & flay people. 

 

Ok but Jon doesn't do any of that. He responds to a threat on his own life. Is that against his vows? 

 

I imagine the issue of whether or not someone was forced to take their vows will only come up when we have someone in charge willing to punish the other party &/or nullify the marriage. 

 

I'll have to reread & get back to you on this one. 

 

No I'm not talking about his Stark brothers either. He didn't go avenget Ned or Robb or dessert when Robb called his banners because his vows & NW brothers do mean something to him. This was in response to you saying his vows, duty, & NW brothers mean nothing to him or something along those lines. 

 

How? How did Jon make his sister his top priority when he is marching on WF in a response to a threat on his own life? 

 

Yes he tried but if it wasn't his decision to return whose was it? If he didn't want too stay why didn't he just leave again? He did not break his vows? He intended on breaking them & his brothers convinced him otherwise. It is no violation of any vow to merely consider dessertion. If he had indeed made too he "wrong choice" back then he would no longer be in the NW, no? 

 

I'll reread it but if Jon is the ultimate guide on when he has or hasn't broken his vows then you would have to agree he hadn't broken them until that point right? And technically he didn't break them now if it is against his vow to march on WF because he doesn't get the chance to do it. I'm not saying he is innocent of it because had he had the chance he absolutely would have. 

I'm not strategist or military commander so I will concede it could have been a suicide mission, however, he has a bunch of undisciplined wildlings that put up one hell of a fight at the Wall & that are well acclimated to the snow & cold. Whether Ramsay defeated Stannis or not his own army will be depleted after the battle & most likely weak. Theon snuck into WF pretty easily I don't think it's farfetched to believe Jon & the wildlings could especially under the cover of snow. I agree Ramsay would have sent the letter to draw Jon out so Jon is doing exactly what Ramsay wants him to. 

Maybe not but would it not be argued then that Jon sent envoys & scouts to meddle in the matters of the realm? 

 

But it doesn't really matter in this discussion because he does believe it's Arya. He may have done those things upon finding out it wasn't Arya prior to the rescue but I highly doubt when/if he finds out its Jeyne he is going to send her back to Ramsay. He may expose her true identity but it won't endanger her life at that point because she will be safe away from Ramsay. 

I'm not sure where LV is going with some of his arguments. Ramsay's actions against Lady Hornwood were criminal and the only reason he escaped answering for his crimes was because he swapped clothes with his servant, Reek, when Rodrick Cassel went to arrest him and was, therefore believed to have been killed. No-one accepted his forced marriage to Lady Hornwood as valid. 

Although Jon doesn't know it, Ramsay's marriage to Jeyne Poole is fraudulent (since it was made under false pretences). One of the reasons Ramsay is shitting himself about Theon and Jeyne going to Jon is because, as you noted, it would expose the fake Arya scam.