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Should Robert have appointed Lyn Corbray as Kingsguard?


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Well, not after the Trident because Robert wasn't king yet but Lyn Corbray might have been a good choice.  He's a second son, lethal and not interested in women.  It also wouldn't hurt to have a Vale knight or two in the Kingsguard.

There are a couple of problems.  He initially fought against Jon Arryn and most of Robert's KG appointments were more Cersei's than Robert's.

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1 hour ago, PrinceHenryris said:

Well, not after the Trident because Robert wasn't king yet but Lyn Corbray might have been a good choice.  He's a second son, lethal and not interested in women.  It also wouldn't hurt to have a Vale knight or two in the Kingsguard.

I have thought of this too, but on the other hand Robert intended to be king. Like Renly had his Rainbow Guard without claiming the Iron Throne. And after killing Rhaegar and defeating the last massive chunk of the Crown's forces, there was not too much left to stop him from winning. At least as far as he was concerned, I don't think he knew about the Wildfire.

1 hour ago, PrinceHenryris said:

There are a couple of problems.  He initially fought against Jon Arryn and most of Robert's KG appointments were more Cersei's than Robert's.

Well Barristan fought against Robert on the Trident, but he was pardoned and kept his position as Kingsguard and was even promoted to being Lord Commander. I think that having Lyn, or any other knight that was Robert's own choice for that matter and not Cersei's, is the most important thing in this. The way I see it, these are the considerations:

For:

  • Deadly swordsman, has a Valyrian Steel blade.
  • Good commander (or at least a solid one), as shown when he lead his men in an assault against Prince Lewyn's Dornishmen.
  • Granting such an honor to a hero (Lyn took a crucial part in the BotT) would show the people that Robert can generously reward those who are loyal to him.
  • Takes a spot at the Kingsguard away from one of Cersei's lickspittles/yes-men/ass-kissers (although I don't really think Robert or anybody else foresaw this at the time).

Against:

  • There's an aura of untrustfulness about him. Sansa and Petyr agree he's a very dangerous man, and not necessarily because of his fighting prowess.
  • He didn't only fight against Robert at the start, he fought against Jon Arryn - his own direct liege lord. Even though he changed sides eventually, it still means something I think.
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Appointing a Kingsguard before you've actually seized the throne is an unnecessary move, only done by Renly because he was obsessed with pomp and ceremony/was looking for something to focus his troops on while they meandered around. Robert had no need of a formal bodyguard order while surrounded by an army of his friends and allies.

However, after formally becoming King yes, Lyn 100% should have been made a Kingsguard. His strength at arms, command abilities, and regional/political value are all very strong. 

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I think Ser Lyn Corbray would have been as logical a choice as some of the men who did make the cut into the elite seven of the kingsguard. There seems to be quite a bit of symbolism as well as some plot-driven matters that determine who becomes a member of the kingsguard and who wants to join but doesn't get approved.

For Robert's kingsguard, there were five "slots" to fill, since he kept Ser Barristan and Jaime from the previous group of seven. The five known members of Robert's guard included Arys Oakheart, Mandon Moore, Boros Blount, Meryn Trant, and Preston Greenfield.  

Possible symbolic underpinnings for these five kingsguard members:

Arys Oakheart - We first meet Ser Arys escorting Sansa to Joffrey's nameday tournament. His escort role seems parallel to the role played by Yoren, the Night's Watch brother who escorts Arya out of King's Landing in a nearby chapter. (Ser Arys also lightly beat Sansa when Joffrey commanded it, much the same way the Yoren lightly beat Arya after she attacked Hot Pie with her wooden sword.) Note that The Hound escorts Sansa back to the Red Keep after the tournament and feast. So Arys could fulfill a sort of opposite role compared to The Hound.

Arys later breaks his vow and has an affair with Arianne Martell. The other guy we know of who made love to a Dornish woman was Rhaegar, who was married to Elia Martell. An affair and marriage are different, I realize, but there may be a parallel with the otherwise exemplary behavior of Ser Arys and Prince Rhaegar, who had a reputation for good and noble behavior except for possibly kidnapping and/or having an affair with Lyanna Stark.

Could the Arys / Arianne relationship tell us something about the Rhaegar / Elia relationship? Based on the strength, cunning and active leadership skills of the Martell women, I have long suspected that Elia Martell's passive nature has been taken too much for granted by readers. Even if she had difficulty carrying a pregnancy to full term, I don't think she would have been a weak person in other areas.

Ser Arys dies on the banks of the Greenblood River; Rhaegar died at the Red Fork of the Trident.

Mandon Moore - This guy is completely mysterious. He is described as looking dead. Later, we believe that Ser Robert Strong is the post-death Gregor Clegane. Why couldn't Ser Mandon also be a post-death member of the kingsguard? We are told that he comes from a minor house in the Vale and that Robert puts him in the kingsguard as a favor to Jon Arryn. But why would Robert ask such a prestigious appointment for a minor House that never figures in the story again? I suspect that House Moore is either nonexistent or its members have died out, and Arryn is using it as a cover for some undead guy who wants to be at the center of the action at King's Landing. One of our few possible clues about his identity is that he seems to want to kill Tyrion Lannister when no one else is looking.

He dies (again?) in the Blackwater when Podrick Payne defends Tyrion.

Boros Blount - This guy is incompetent, but Cersei wants him and Ser Meryn in the kingsguard, according to Varys. Cersei removes him from his post because she is mad that Blount allowed Tyrion's man, Bronn, to take control of Prince Tommen without Cersei's permission. Tywin restores Blount to the kingsguard after Sandor Clegane leaves King's Landing.

The sigil of House Blount includes a porcupine, which may or may not unite the symbols of a pine tree and a pig. In Meera's story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, a squire with a porcupine sigil is one of the three that torments the crannogman before he is rescued by TKotLT. My reading of those three squires is that they represent the Freys and their allies; with Boros Blount being a near anagram of Roose Bolton, details of his arc may provide hints about what is in store for Roose or Ramsay.

Blount is craven and he becomes the food taster for Prince Tommen after Joffrey is thought to have ingested poison. This is supposed to be a humiliating task for a knight.

Meryn Trant - Ser Meryn fails to protect King Robert from the boar and King Joffrey from poison. He also is on duty guarding Kevan Lannister when Kevan is lured to his death by one of Varys's little birds.

Ser Meryn is rumored to be Cersei's man, along with Ser Boros. He laughs at the dismissal of Ser Barristan and participates in the beating of Sansa. Sansa tells him he is no true knight, and Jaime berates him for not protecting Joffrey from his own bad idea of beating a young girl.

In tournaments, Trant defeats Harwin (master of horse for the Starks) and Hobber Redwyne (grandson of Olenna Tyrell). He is defeated by Ser Loras Tyrell.

Preston Greenfield - To me, the most interesting thing about Ser Preston is his death in the uprising at King's Landing at the time of Myrcella's departure for Dorne. His last name is Greenfield, right? When they search for his body, they look for a guy dressed in white but finally find his battered body so bloodstained that it is completely red and brown. Is this an allusion to the battle of Redgrass Field? If so, that brings us back to Corbray and Lady Forlorn, because Gwayne Corbray of the kingsguard battled Daemon Waters / Blackfyre at the Redgrass field.

From the wiki:

Quote

A famous fight took place between [Daemon Blackfyre and Ser Gwayne Corbray] with Valyrian steel swords, with Daemon wielding Blackfyre and Gwayne using Lady Forlorn, before Daemon managed to severely injure his opponent, leaving him blind and bleeding. Daemon paused then, to make sure no more injury came to Ser Gwayne, ordering Redtusk to carry Gwayne back to the maesters in the rear.[3] . . . It is suggested that the Redgrass Field was a close thing and if Daemon had not stopped for Gwayne, he might have broken Maekar's left before Bloodraven had gained the ridge and Baelor arrived.[3] Then, with the Hand slain and the road to King's Landing open, Daemon would have had little opposition.[3] 

Interesting that there are both "Waters" (Daemon Blackfyre's original surname) and "Rivers" (Bloodraven's surname) at this battle. There may be a river theme connected to the death or near-death of kingsguard members.

Clearly, Corbray is an important name in the history of the Kingsguard. It's possible that the famous loyalty of Ser Gwayne was a reason that Ser Lyn Corbray was not considered for a spot in Robert's Kingsguard - too much Targaryen loyalty in the family tree was not a point of recommendation for service in the new Baratheon / Lannister regime.

Spoiler

I suspect that Ser Lyn will obtain a guard-like position in Sweetrobin's guard in the next book, and that the allusion to his famous Kingsguard ancestor will come into play at that point.

Ser Lyn Corbray may have been left out of King Robert's Kingsguard precisely because his logical role as a guard for a monarch or king-like character was being reserved for a different "king".

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As people have stated earlier, Lyn Corbray has a very distrustful feel to him. Plus the rumours that he likes "boys", which I don't think looks very good on him.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

<snip>

Arys later breaks his vow and has an affair with Arianne Martell. The other guy we know of who made love to a Dornish woman was Rhaegar, who was married to Elia Martell. An affair and marriage are different, I realize, but there may be a parallel with the otherwise exemplary behavior of Ser Arys and Prince Rhaegar, who had a reputation for good and noble behavior except for possibly kidnapping and/or having an affair with Lyanna Stark.

Could the Arys / Arianne relationship tell us something about the Rhaegar / Elia relationship? Based on the strength, cunning and active leadership skills of the Martell women, I have long suspected that Elia Martell's passive nature has been taken too much for granted by readers. Even if she had difficulty carrying a pregnancy to full term, I don't think she would have been a weak person in other areas.

Ser Arys dies on the banks of the Greenblood River; Rhaegar died at the Red Fork of the Trident.

<snip>

Rather off topic, this is what I have suspected all along; Although she might've have been a very meek, kind or passive person, I believe there is more to Elia Martell than meekness and ill health.

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On 7/1/2017 at 2:54 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

Well, not after the Trident because Robert wasn't king yet but Lyn Corbray might have been a good choice.  He's a second son, lethal and not interested in women.  It also wouldn't hurt to have a Vale knight or two in the Kingsguard.

There are a couple of problems.  He initially fought against Jon Arryn and most of Robert's KG appointments were more Cersei's than Robert's.

100% this.  Robert is uninterested in ruling, but it is important to remember that Jon Arryn is.  After Robert's Rebellion, there are 5 open spots, which go to Boros Blount, Mandon Moore (considered a loner, but of a skill level to not dishonor his cloak), Preston Greenfield (very little information), Meryn Trant, and Aerys Oakheart.  Aerys is considered a worthy Brother (and likely Aerys was chosen in order to pass over Richard Horpe, as an ally of Stannis'), and was much later anyway, so lets unpack the rest.

Boros Blount may very well have been a competent knight when appointed, but he's old and fat and has gone to seed.  But he's Cersei's creature.  Comes from the Crownlands.

Mandon Moore comes from the Vale, and presumably fought loyally for Jon Arryn, unlike Lyn Corbray.

Preston Greenfield comes from the Westerlands.

Meryn Trant comes from the Stormlands.

So what we see is a careful balancing of feudal politics.  Most of them come from rebel kingdoms, which makes sense; the security of the king is not going to be entrusted to a loyalist house with a grudge to hold.  That the Riverlands are not represented is odd, as is Hoster Tully's entire arc post-Rebellion (for someone who bargained damn hard for marital alliances to join the war, he doesn't ask for much after, which is probably just an oversight on GRRMs part).  Maybe the unnamed 7th who Aerys Oakheart replaces was a Riverlander.  All loyalists, drawn from various kingdoms, excluding the North which has no tradition of knighthood and thus is mostly excluded (plus Ned doesn't ask for anything).

Cersei obviously corrupts a bunch of them over the years, and her more recent appointments of Clegane and Kettleblack are obvious power plays, but for the most part, these seem to be Jon Arryn's choices, being typically careful in dispensing offices and honors to all the victorious parties, in contradiction to Cersei's later habit of hoarding them for House Lannister (which causes resentment).  For the new regime, loyalty is more important than skill, with a possible Targaryen Restoration still possible and no second generation of heirs for the Baratheon dynasty.  Lyn fought against Jon in the beginning; my guess is all the Kingsguard appointees were from loyalist Houses in those regions.  Barristan excluded, obviously, as he was directly pardoned.

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2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

100% this.  Robert is uninterested in ruling, but it is important to remember that Jon Arryn is.  After Robert's Rebellion, there are 5 open spots, which go to Boros Blount, Mandon Moore (considered a loner, but of a skill level to not dishonor his cloak), Preston Greenfield (very little information), Meryn Trant, and Aerys Oakheart.  Aerys is considered a worthy Brother (and likely Aerys was chosen in order to pass over Richard Horpe, as an ally of Stannis'), and was much later anyway, so lets unpack the rest.

Boros Blount may very well have been a competent knight when appointed, but he's old and fat and has gone to seed.  But he's Cersei's creature.  Comes from the Crownlands.

Mandon Moore comes from the Vale, and presumably fought loyally for Jon Arryn, unlike Lyn Corbray.

Preston Greenfield comes from the Westerlands.

Meryn Trant comes from the Stormlands.

So what we see is a careful balancing of feudal politics.  Most of them come from rebel kingdoms, which makes sense; the security of the king is not going to be entrusted to a loyalist house with a grudge to hold.  That the Riverlands are not represented is odd, as is Hoster Tully's entire arc post-Rebellion (for someone who bargained damn hard for marital alliances to join the war, he doesn't ask for much after, which is probably just an oversight on GRRMs part).  Maybe the unnamed 7th who Aerys Oakheart replaces was a Riverlander.  All loyalists, drawn from various kingdoms, excluding the North which has no tradition of knighthood and thus is mostly excluded (plus Ned doesn't ask for anything).

Cersei obviously corrupts a bunch of them over the years, and her more recent appointments of Clegane and Kettleblack are obvious power plays, but for the most part, these seem to be Jon Arryn's choices, being typically careful in dispensing offices and honors to all the victorious parties, in contradiction to Cersei's later habit of hoarding them for House Lannister (which causes resentment).  For the new regime, loyalty is more important than skill, with a possible Targaryen Restoration still possible and no second generation of heirs for the Baratheon dynasty.  Lyn fought against Jon in the beginning; my guess is all the Kingsguard appointees were from loyalist Houses in those regions.  Barristan excluded, obviously, as he was directly pardoned.

I assume you mean Arys Oakheart, not Aerys the Mad King

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