The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD

[Galbrod]

1 hour ago, Faint said:

There is also the sheer amount of written material to drive this point home. I find it no coincidence that many of the readers seemingly not grasping this narrative arc are the very same that cannot understand what the point of all the Esemnet/Kelmomas material was about (although, to be fair, much of it was indulgent as well). 

I just find the execution of Esmenet as Kellhus' dark - leading to Kelmonas running free - suddenly having Kelmonas in the midst of a Kellhus/Consult showdown to be a narrative that is far from the quality that we have seen in the series so far. I hope that there is something more to this... 

[jurble]

Found my very first Bakker post.   Clearly I was 100% correct.  The Survivor was totally "an Anasurimbor at Ishual that will be all that he expects from a hero" in my words.   

[Faint]

18 minutes ago, Galbrod said:

I just find the execution of Esmenet as Kellhus' dark - leading to Kelmonas running free - suddenly having Kelmonas in the midst of a Kellhus/Consult showdown to be a narrative that is far from the quality that we have seen in the series so far. I hope that there is something more to this... 

I do find the execution quite sub par. It also felt shoehorned in and reverse engineered. He knew that he wanted to make Kelmomas the weakness but he also had to explain why Kellhus would even tolerate him in the first place, so he came up with another weakness (i.e., love of Esmenet), which doubled as the least believable plot point in the series. 

[Damelon]

2 minutes ago, Faint said:

I do find the execution quite sub par. It also felt shoehorned in and reverse engineered. He knew that he wanted to make Kelmomas the weakness but he also had to explain why Kellhus would even tolerate him in the first place, so he came up with another weakness (i.e., love of Esmenet), which doubled as the least believable plot point in the series. 

Well , perhaps the point for Bakker regarding Kellhus was: 'nobody's perfect'. While the problem of execution lies more with Kellhus than Kelmomas and Esmenet. One clear reason is that we are not offered his perspective so much in TAE, which lends the feel that Esmenet and Kelmomas are presented as if in a vacuum, since we lack Kellhus's own context.

More seriously though, the assumption that human beings could be bred as love-less/heart-less beings is questionable. And I assume that Bakker is questioning that assumption here. As it also questions the false idea of ever being fully in control, which is impossible, and is pointed out in many places in this series. The whole point of darkness being that one cannot see one's darkness, one doesn't know what one doesn't know. A lot of characters, even Gods, discover this sooner or later in the books. It's Ajokli's specialty.

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Faint, I is not the people have trouble with seeing the Kellhus failed, its clear he failed. The No-God awoke, the Ordeal destroyed and the Consult still on their wicked mission. But, Kellhus dying before the resurrection of the No-God, hence passing onto the Outside, lends itself to more speculation. Was that part of the plan? With the Outside not shut, will Kellhus aid in destroying the No-God? Will he dominate the Outside and thus change how things go for souls on the Outside? He failed in accomplishing the destruction of the Consult, but maybe he didn't. Maybe he knew Ajokli's nature and deceived him. As with anything in this series, it's ambiguous and open to speculation.

ETA: that being said, I'm quite fine if and when we get the 3rd series that Kellhus is nowhere to be found. And, it's purely humanity fighting for humanity. Though, I think the series would lose a lot for me if it's a whole series of just the destruction of Earwa. And, no redemption at all for Mimara, Akka and Esme.

[.H.]

2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

ETA: that being said, I'm quite fine if and when we get the 3rd series that Kellhus is nowhere to be found. And, it's purely humanity fighting for humanity. Though, I think the series would lose a lot for me if it's a whole series of just the destruction of Earwa. And, no redemption at all for Mimara, Akka and Esme.

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty plain that Kellhus failed.

What isn't clear is what happens to him, exactly, now that he did.  It's hard to believe that with him knowing the metagnosis and mastering the Daimos, that his soul simply would just disappear into damnation.  Especially not given how he bartered with Ajokli, is subject to the scrutiny of numerous Ciphrang, not to mention the other 100.  That and his own saying how he made treaties with Hell itself (unclear if this is separate from Ajokli or not).

Not to mention the bizarre glossary entry for the Decapitants.  Note, that in the episode recounted there, he is at the Plains of Mengedda, one of the biggest topos outside Golgotterath itself (if not the biggest).  So, what was he doing?  Perhaps testing what happens between swapping and topoi?  While we don't know, I have doubts now that the head he put on Malowebi was just some "random ciphrang" now, considering that somehow the other head was Ajokli, or actually, I should say, was Kellhus?

Indeed, it seems that Malowebi's head is still alive in the end.  So, I wonder if the other head, Kellhus' head is too?  We just don't know what would happen to a disembodied head when it's body is gone.  Perhaps that is where Kellhus soul really is?

Another reason to think that Kellhus soul is not in the Outside is how Ajokli seems to be looking for him, via Cnaiür.  It seems to be a plausible reading that Ajokli thinks Kellhus is in the Sarcophagus.  In any case, it seems that Kellhus somehow renegged on his deal, either by not delivering the souls of the whole Ordeal or by forfeiting his own soul.  In any case, the fact that Ajokli can't find Kellhus is a clue that something additional is going on with Kellhus.  That doesn't mean he will be central in the next series, but he may well factor in.

An additional crack-pot theory could be that the head he put on Malowebi was actually his own.  So, Kellhus-Malowebi is now loose in Zeûm...but that is doubtful.

[PapushiSun]

20 hours ago, .H. said:

Not just sorcery, Aurang has grafts for pheramone production too.  He designed himself for it.

 

20 hours ago, .H. said:

Nope, it was a boo-boo, through and through.  They were reverse engineering Nin'janjin's DNA to make Sranc and Bashrags.  To save their Nonman allies, Bakker told us, they made them immortal.  By accident, that same thing killed the women though.

Source for these claims?

[.H.]

6 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

Source for these claims?

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

Quote

Is Aurang special amongst the Inchoroi in his ability to use Sorcery? Or were all Inchoroi, his brother included, amongst the Few?

The Inchoroi only possessed the Tekne when they arrived in Eärwa. All of the Inchoroi are the products of successive Graftings, species-wide rewrites of their genotype, meant to enhance various abilities and capacities, such as the ability to elicit certain sexual responses from their victims (via pheromone locks), or the capacity to ‘tune sensations’ and so explore the vagaries and vicissitudes of carnal pleasure. The addition of anthropomorphic vocal apparatuses is perhaps the most famous of these enhancements.

The Grafting that produced Aurang and Aurax was also devised during the age-long C no-Inchoroi Wars, one of many failed attempts to biologically redesign themselves to overcome the Nonmen. But they had been outrun by their debauchery by this time, and had lost any comprehensive understanding of the Tekne. The Graftings had become a matter of guesswork, more likely to kill than enhance those who received them. The Inchoroi filled the Wells of the Aborted with their own in those days.

Aurang and Aurax are two of six who survived the attempt to Graft the ability to see the onta.

And I have now posted this quote 3 times, it says it right in it guys:

Quote

The simplest way to look at the Womb Plague is as a kluge. The Inchoroi are stuck with the remnants of a technology they can no longer understand. At the same time, think of what it is the No-God, as a technology, yields the Inchoroi: the death of birth. They attempted to give immortality to their Nonmen allies to begin with, to save their souls, realized afterward that their gift was fatal to their women. This yielded a crude tool they needed to accomplish at least part of the No-God's function.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1865.msg27782#msg27782

[PapushiSun]

1 hour ago, .H. said:

They attempted to give immortality to their Nonmen allies to begin with, to save their souls, realized afterward that their gift was fatal to their women. This yielded a crude tool they needed to accomplish at least part of the No-God's function.

I don't think this contradicts the idea that the Womb Plague was planned. The Inchoroi first made their Nonmen allies immortal (Nin'janjin and his family), learned that it would kill the Nonmen females, and hatched a plot to inflict it on the rest of the Nonmen. Nin'janjin is fully converted to the Inchoroi cause and is sent to snare the Nonmen. 

[.H.]

13 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

I don't think this contradicts the idea that the Womb Plague was planned. The Inchoroi first made their Nonmen allies immortal (Nin'janjin and his family), learned that it would kill the Nonmen females, and hatched a plot to inflict it on the rest of the Nonmen. Nin'janjin is fully converted to the Inchoroi cause and is sent to snare the Nonmen. 

I wasn't contradicting that they essentially turned it into a weapon after the fact.  I was pointing out that in first making it, the Inoculation was meant to be a boon.  So, in that sense, the Womb-Plauge was a mistake, an unintended side-effect.  Just so happens that side-effect was even better for their long term plans than the Inocculation's primary reason for being made.

[wayward_ishroi]

Man, Ku'jara Kinmoi was pretty vicious with his burns...

 

Viri... That fucking anthill...

Ishoriol/Curunq... Sons of someone...

[wayward_ishroi]

28 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

I don't think this contradicts the idea that the Womb Plague was planned. The Inchoroi first made their Nonmen allies immortal (Nin'janjin and his family), learned that it would kill the Nonmen females, and hatched a plot to inflict it on the rest of the Nonmen. Nin'janjin is fully converted to the Inchoroi cause and is sent to snare the Nonmen. 

We have no evidence at this point that the wives of the Viritic Tsonoi accepted the inoculation prior to the womb-plague hitting ALL cunuroi females

[PapushiSun]

40 minutes ago, .H. said:

I wasn't contradicting that they essentially turned it into a weapon after the fact.  I was pointing out that in first making it, the Inoculation was meant to be a boon.  So, in that sense, the Womb-Plauge was a mistake, an unintended side-effect.  Just so happens that side-effect was even better for their long term plans than the Inocculation's primary reason for being made.

To be clear, I think the innoculation of their nonmen allies was done with the right intentions. But once they discovered its effects on Nonmen women, they used the innoculation as a weapon on their nonmen enemies. 

[PapushiSun]

On 02/07/2017 at 0:28 AM, Werthead said:

I groaned a little bit when the appendix lampshaded how it might happen

I missed this. Which glossary entry are you talking about?

[Darth Richard II]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:59 PM, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Lol. Someone else said it earlier in the thread, maybe DR, but who uses "cunny" in the real world.

Really, how did that get past anyone baffles me.

I am way behind of this thread cause eye stuff, but I find it both it hilarious how many reviews.impressions state "clearly this is not the end" when, uh it is. Unless Bakker changed his mind at almost literally the last second, he's been jumping up and down and screanubg "this is how it was always going to end!" for years now.

[Darth Richard II]

On 7/10/2017 at 2:28 PM, Hello World said:

By the way, this idea that Kellhus became a God at one point then went back, communicated with and helped himself during the series is the worst theory I've ever heard. I mean from a storytelling point of view.

[jurble]

RE: Kellhus failing - the reason there has to be more than just "Kellhus loses." is because Kellhus explicitly tells us he's going to fail.  He's fairly certain the No-God is about to walk.

Quote

the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win. At some point, perhaps this year or ages hence, the whole of humanity will be butchered. Think on it! Why did Momas strike Momemn, his namesake city, and not this infernal place? Why is Eternity blind to Golgotterath? Because it stands outside Eternity, outside what the Gods can see. And that blindness is nothing short of breathtaking, Proyas! Our actions, our Great Ordeal, follows a doom outside of doom!

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 3246-3249). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

Thus, it becomes a question of what contingencies he had place and what his plan actually was - did he really just walk into the Ark thinking, "Well, I have about a 66.45% chance to fail here - and absolutely no recourse or contingencies." or did he plan his own failure?  Kellhus knows the No-God must walk at some point, it's fated.  He knows he's going to fail, but knowing he is going to fail means he can plan the manner and specifics of that failure.  The idea that Kelmomas and Esmenet are utter blind-spots is absurd.   If his own heart prevents him from killing Kelmomas to spare Esmenet pain, it doesn't prevent him from maneuvering Kelmomas to substitute himself inside the No-God and control some circumstance around the No-God's summoning.

[Werthead]

23 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Another mystery is 'how does reducing the population to 144k stop the Outside from flowing back once it gets over 144k?'

If the No-God is running or the Inoculation has been undertaken, it can't get back over 144,000, presumably.

 

Quote

 

“Our Salvation lies in the art of human extinction, not the fact,” his burnt brother explained

 

I think, as has been pointed out, this refers to the fact that humans must be killed by the No-God, or must be killed whilst the No-God is running, not just nuked into oblivion.

 

Quote

 

4) Was Sil the King of the Inchoroi before the Arkfall?

 

We know from TUC that Sil wasn't the king at all, he was simply the first Inchoroi to get his shit together, dig out the Inverse Fire and generally get the Inchoroi back on their feet again. The leader on the Ark prior to Arkfall was the Ark itself.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Werthead said:

If the No-God is running or the Inoculation has been undertaken, it can't get back over 144,000, presumably.

Right - but the No-God isn't always running from world to world. They appear to turn it off and on again. When the No-God leaves, that world is back to the normal cycle. 

Just now, Werthead said:

We know from TUC that Sil wasn't the king at all, he was simply the first Inchoroi to get his shit together, dig out the Inverse Fire and generally get the Inchoroi back on their feet again. The leader on the Ark prior to Arkfall was the Ark itself.

Yep. Though Bakker also says that the Inchoroi being just 'space janitors' is exactly the opposite of true, and it turns out that if anything that gave them too much credit. 

[Gaston de Foix]

15 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

RE: Kellhus failing - the reason there has to be more than just "Kellhus loses." is because Kellhus explicitly tells us he's going to fail.  He's fairly certain the No-God is about to walk.

Thus, it becomes a question of what contingencies he had place and what his plan actually was - did he really just walk into the Ark thinking, "Well, I have about a 66.45% chance to fail here - and absolutely no recourse or contingencies." or did he plan his own failure?  Kellhus knows the No-God must walk at some point, it's fated.  He knows he's going to fail, but knowing he is going to fail means he can plan the manner and specifics of that failure.  The idea that Kelmomas and Esmenet are utter blind-spots is absurd.   If his own heart prevents him from killing Kelmomas to spare Esmenet pain, it doesn't prevent him from maneuvering Kelmomas to substitute himself inside the No-God and control some circumstance around the No-God's summoning.

except that Kellhus' admission to Proyas hides his deal with Ajokli. He's telling a partial truth there. He's certain that the No-God will walk, unless the Great Ordeal (himself included) rewrites reality.   That's precisely what he was trying to do.  As Dunyain, he is blind to the agency of the Gods (see the WLW warriors).  As a divine instrument, he is blind to the probabilities of failure (precisely as other divine instruments fail).

Thus he attributes his continued survival to the certainty that he will prevent the No-God from walking. But that's not it at all: he succeeds both WLW assassination attempts because the No-God must walk, and therefore Kelmomas must live.