The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD

[Werthead]

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I missed this. Which glossary entry are you talking about?

 

The Decapitants one, IIRC.

[Hello World]

Thinking about the time shenanigans again, if the Consult succeeds in closing the world against the Outside at some point, wouldn't that mean that the world would have been closed to the outside the whole time? In other words, the fact that there is an Outside now and the Gods, Damnation, etc... all exist means that the Consult never succeeded in closing the world.

[jurble]

1 minute ago, Gaston de Foix said:

except that Kellhus' admission to Proyas hides his deal with Ajokli. He's telling a partial truth there. He's certain that the No-God will walk, unless the Great Ordeal (himself included) rewrites reality.  

No, the Great Ordeal (himself included) cannot rewrite reality.  What says in the next line is

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We undertake a pilgrimage that rewrites the Hundred with every step!”

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 3249-3250). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

He's talking about the fact that each step they take towards Golgotterath is one outside the Gods' purview and thus rewrite the substance-and-fact of the Gods themselves due to their eternal nature.  There is no mechanism for the Great Ordeal to 'rewrite reality'.  Earwa's reality is completely fixed in place (Kalbear's description of it as a book works here).  It's the Gods that are powerless (but not, The God himself). 

7 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

 As Dunyain, he is blind to the agency of the Gods (see the WLW warriors).

As Dunyain is not blind to the agency of the Gods.  He can be blinded but that's not the same thing. 

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 As a divine instrument, he is blind to the probabilities of failure (precisely as other divine instruments fail).

Other people who've been possessed by Gods, Cnaiur and Saubon, do not possess WLW-warrior vision.  WLW-warrior vision is restricted to the WLWs-proper, it's the basis of their name - the white luck. 

[jurble]

14 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Thinking about the time shenanigans again, if the Consult succeeds in closing the world against the Outside at some point, wouldn't that mean that the world would have been closed to the outside the whole time? In other words, the fact that there is an Outside now and the Gods, Damnation, etc... all exist means that the Consult never succeeded in closing the world.

I wondered the same thing.   There's replies from WalterX and Kalbear. 

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Thinking about the time shenanigans again, if the Consult succeeds in closing the world against the Outside at some point, wouldn't that mean that the world would have been closed to the outside the whole time? In other words, the fact that there is an Outside now and the Gods, Damnation, etc... all exist means that the Consult never succeeded in closing the world.

Not exactly. Here's how I figure it works.

• The No-God is hidden from the gods.
• The gods can only see things from the beginning of time to the end of their time.
• Therefore, the No-God exists at a point where the gods do not.
• This implies by necessity that at some point in the future, time has to end and the No-God has to exist past it. 

The closing of the Outside doesn't go backwards and forwards; it happens at a specific point in history, and at that point the gods effectively end. Alternately the gods end for some other reason, and it just so happens that the No-God is there at that point as well. But the easiest conclusion is that the closing of the Outside is the end, the eschaton, and that's why the No-God cannot be seen. 

The other possibility is that anything created outside of the Earwan frame is invisible to the gods, which is why Ark and Golgotterath are invisible, why Ajokli needed a way in to the Golden room. In which case, everything that Kellhus says to Proyas is simply wrong and he doesn't understand why things are invisible. (this is also a compelling argument to me). 

[unJon]

New theory on Hologram Kel. It is really God Kel manifested just like the Wright Under the Mountain in TJE. Kel is salted, Kel descends into hell with a hunger, Kel does some asskickery in hell and gets godlike powers. Kel uses said powers to maifest in Earwa just like Ajokli did (and the Daimos bound Ciphrang did in reverse earlier in TUC). Then either Mimara and her judging eye vanished Kel like it did with Wright Under the Mountain (she no longer needs the crutch of a chorae for that trick) or the No-God turning on vanishes Kel when it shuts the Outside. 

I think it's consistent with the evidence, but only just thought of it so everyone feel free to shoot it down. 

[Kalbear]

Also, thanks to @Werthead in his great History of Earwa we are reminded that while the cycle of souls wasn't happening during the first apocalypse, the gods were still around. 

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During this period, the populous and packed cities of the south cried out for succour and divine intervention. They prayed to the Hundred Gods, but received no reply. The people begged their priests to explain why the Hundred had not interceded and the priests could not answer. Many years later, confused records of this time suggest that the priests had in fact petitioned for help and gotten only bizarre responses: the Gods could not see or feel the presence of the No-God, only the destruction that followed in his wake, which they blamed solely on humanity itself. The Hundred could not intervene because they could not even perceive the problem in the first place, and it may be that that this nullification of divine perception is one of the reasons the No-God was named as such. Humanity stood alone.

 

So to clarify - while the No-God walked, and it worked, it didn't succeed in shutting off the Outside, and will need to do more in the future. 

[jurble]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

everything that Kellhus says to Proyas is simply wrong and he doesn't understand why things are invisible. (this is also a compelling argument to me). 

Here's a portion where we know Kellhus is wrong

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“And the God of Gods?” the battered face gasped.

...

"As blind to His Creation,” the Anasûrimbor said, “as we are blind to ourselves.”

Except Mimara demonstrates God isn't blind.  But what the significance of that is, I don't know, given Kellhus' earlier statement in the book prior that "God does not care."  I'm thinking Kellhus is completely wrong about God, but as to how that impacts the next series or story, I don't know.  The fact that the Judging Eye can see the No-God points more towards the Fanim's idea of a transcendent God (like the Abrahamic god irl).

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Here's a portion where we know Kellhus is wrong

Except Mimara demonstrates God isn't blind.  But what the significance of that is, I don't know, given Kellhus' earlier statement in the book prior that "God does not care."  I'm thinking Kellhus is completely wrong about God, but as to how that impacts the next series or story, I don't know.  The fact that the Judging Eye can see the No-God points more towards the Fanim's idea of a transcendent God (like the Abrahamic god irl).

At least, Mimara demonstrates that something isn't blind; I'm still inclined to believe in Koringhus' interpretation (if for no other reason than if it isn't right, there is literally no reason for it to be in the book) but we don't know about what TJE is or what it means exactly.

From a narrative perspective I feel like Kellhus being blind and stupid and unaware of his potential failings is the least earned of the story, but makes the most sense. I know that we're told that he loves Esmi, in whatever passes for his soul, and that Kelmomas, Akka and Mimara are preserved because of this love - but I never felt it. It makes sense that the whole story is about how Kellhus is wrong as an inversion of a fantasy trope as well as a way to show how even the Dunyain are fallible if they research the wrong things, but again - it isn't earned, and leaves so many open holes in plots. 

I think the biggest problem is that I'm attempting to fight a battle with myself that parts of the book are in there for actual reasons, because that's what authors do. They put things in (especially in fantasy stories) because the words have meaning and importance, at least in some way. Thus, I try to figure out why Mimara and Akka are in there at all (there is literally no point to them being around, and their entire story could have been left out without losing anything), why the Ordeal is made to be damned horribly (it doesn't have to be), why the DunSult knew to get Kelmomas, why the Scylvendi even show up, etc - and the only reasonable conclusion I have is that this had to be part of Kellhus' plan.

Because if all of it is meaningless in a meaningfully created world, it is something of a failure in storytelling. 

[.H.]

17 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Here's a portion where we know Kellhus is wrong

Except Mimara demonstrates God isn't blind.  But what the significance of that is, I don't know, given Kellhus' earlier statement in the book prior that "God does not care."  I'm thinking Kellhus is completely wrong about God, but as to how that impacts the next series or story, I don't know.  The fact that the Judging Eye can see the No-God points more towards the Fanim's idea of a transcendent God (like the Abrahamic god irl).

But it could be that Mimara's vision is a hybrid of the divine Eye and her own Mundane sight though.

She does talk about how she is really what Kellhus pretends to be, a prophet, and in Eärwa, prophets bring the word of man to God.  Or so we are lead to believe.

Also, I think I have mentioned before, but I think the Eye is the view from the God of Gods, who would be the same as the Solitary God and the Zero God, but specifically not the 100.  As such, that God is sundered into the 100, so I don't know that both can exist at the same time.  Or at least, I feel like that God is not manifest at the moment (because the god "God... broken into a million warring splinters.".

Then again, it's been pointed out that my ideas are usually terrible, so I am sure I am wrong.

[jurble]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

At least, Mimara demonstrates that something isn't blind; I'm still inclined to believe in Koringhus' interpretation (if for no other reason than if it isn't right, there is literally no reason for it to be in the book) but we don't know about what TJE is or what it means exactly.

 

 

1 minute ago, .H. said:

Also, I think I have mentioned before, but I think the Eye is the view from the God of Gods, who would be the same as the Solitary God and the Zero God, but specifically not the 100.  As such, that god is sundered into the 100, so I don't know that both can exist at the same time.  Or at least, I feel like that God is not manifest at the moment (because the god "God... broken into a million warring splinters.".

 

It's not impossible that God is both immanent and transcendent (God both imbues and is composed of Creation and that God exists apart from Creation).  That is, God splintered itself to create Creation and Creation is God, but in its sum, God remains the removed.  The movements of its parts do not move God.  God (the Absolute) remains outside causality and is still the Unmoved Mover and omniscient and omnipotent in regards to Creation.

[.H.]

1 minute ago, Ajûrbkli said:

It's not impossible that God is both immanent and transcendent (God both imbues and is composed of Creation and that God exists apart from Creation).  That is, God splintered itself to create Creation and Creation is God, but in its sum, God remains the removed.  The movements of its parts do not move God.  God (the Absolute) remains outside causality and is still the Unmoved Mover and omniscient and omnipotent in regards to Creation.

True.  My hunch came from a discussion a long time ago, thinking about if the Psûhke was really divine or not.  My hunch was that it wasn't and that the Solitary God is not really intercessional in Eärwa.  It was just a sort of Unity Concept.  I am also not sure if the God of Gods would be infinite on Eärwa.  There is a part where Kellhus is talking to Proyas in TGO where he says that infinity is impossible.  He could be wrong though.

I'd  think that Mimara's Eye might well be akin to Ajokli's possession of Kellhus though, gaining it sight where it would not be able to see otherwise...

[Hello World]

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Thus, I try to figure out why Mimara and Akka are in there at all (there is literally no point to them being around, and their entire story could have been left out without losing anything), why the Ordeal is made to be damned horribly (it doesn't have to be), why the DunSult knew to get Kelmomas, why the Scylvendi even show up, etc - and the only reasonable conclusion I have is that this had to be part of Kellhus' plan.

Could be set up for the next book, or just worldbuilding. I think Bakker has implied in the past that worldbuilding is fine even if it's not necessary to the plot (looking for this quote right now). I remember him having a big argument with some blogger about worldbuilding that went nowhere.

[Kalbear]

Also, on the debate that won't end for a while, here's another inkling of credence to the notion that the story is going to be about HeadMasters. First, the description of Kellhus:

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Even though it dwarfed the images of the Mutilated, the Aspect-Emperor’s reflection was somehow the least clear. It was as if globules of pitch lay suspended within the fin of Inchoroi gold, compressing elements of the man’s image.

Then we have the other head:

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For the first time, Malowebi found his gaze hooked on the other diabolical head hanging with him against the Aspect-Emperor’s thigh—the other Decapitant. For the first time, he noticed the same obscuring distortion that marred the Anasûrimbor—like globules of ink hanging in quicksilver—marring it.

This is right before Kellhus reveals the Ajokli bit. 

Again, not really particularly clear one way or another what it means or why. 

4 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Could be set up for the next book, or just worldbuilding. I think Bakker has implied in the past that worldbuilding is fine even if it's not necessary to the plot (looking for this quote right now). I remember him having a big argument with some blogger about worldbuilding that went nowhere.

I think there's a difference between, say, Tyrion going on a shitty sight-seeing trip through Essos that comprised one half of his storyline, and Akka and Mimara's entire arc for four books being pointless. That said, you may be right, in which case I'll simply complain that the conclusion of their storyline really sucked and wasn't particularly satisfying to me given the buildup. Compare this to Akka's arc in PoN and it really isn't a contest at all. 

Sorweel, IMO, had a pretty good arc and was pretty satisfying, even if he ended up dead; he got a really cool ending that helped the story along and made sense, even if he started out kind of shit. Akka and Mimara barely got to even do anything in the last book. 

[jurble]

The entire point of the Akka-Mimara storyline was just so Akka could kneel in front of Kellhus while begging for Proyas' life (Achamian notes the muttering of people around them, but since Kellhus and Akka were speaking in Kuinuric, they have no idea what's going on).  It was all an extremely elaborate ploy for Kellhus to fulfill his little prophecy at the end of TTT.  Even the whole Ordeal thing?  Just for that. 

[Faint]

17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

From a narrative perspective I feel like Kellhus being blind and stupid and unaware of his potential failings is the least earned of the story, but makes the most sense. I know that we're told that he loves Esmi, in whatever passes for his soul, and that Kelmomas, Akka and Mimara are preserved because of this love - but I never felt it. It makes sense that the whole story is about how Kellhus is wrong as an inversion of a fantasy trope as well as a way to show how even the Dunyain are fallible if they research the wrong things, but again - it isn't earned, and leaves so many open holes in plots. 

I am on the same wavelength on this point. I think Bakker wrote himself into kind of a corner. My interpretation is that it was a combination of several factors.  The first, most obvious one, is him not wanting to tip his hand. Although I feel he tried to over correct too drastically in the final book which made his previous efforts seem all the more inadequate and his recent ones nonsensical.  The fact that we got nary a Kellhus POV in the second series makes sense but it only serves to exacerbate this issue.  Then there is the difficulty in making it it believable that Kellhus would ever love someone without compromising the character he was from the first three books (something at which Bakker inevitably failed). Finally, we have the very structure of how the story was told, where we did not witness the twenty year gap between the first series and the second series, which in turn was followed by Kellhus and Esmenet almost always being apart.  So there was simply no groundwork there, much less a relationship.

I suppose my conclusion is that this was simply a narrative mistake. Trying to work the love of Esmenet as the Achilles' heel of the story was always bound to end in failure.  It was never going to be believable that Kellhus loved Esmenet (the reasons are, no exaggeration, almost endless).  The trouble is that Bakker desperately needed this to be the case because this crutch did so, so much for him, which this last book continually threw in our faces (i.e., Why is Achamian still alive? Why is Kelmomas still alive?).  Without that underpinning, the entire story simply collapses. 

17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Thus, I try to figure out why Mimara and Akka are in there at all (there is literally no point to them being around, and their entire story could have been left out without losing anything) . . . 

I agree with the sentiments above, in that their story is all setup.  I suspect that when, if fortunate favors us, the series is complete, we will look back and identify Achamian as the obvious protagonist of the series (which was always my take away in any case).  In that vein, I do not think their arcs in the last four books can be properly evaluated until we read the final two. Also, my own two cents here, but I think their story -- excluding their role in the last book -- was easily the best of the lot from the second series.  So say what you will about it, but at least it was highly entertaining set-up.  I would take Cil-Aujas and Sauglish over anything that happened in the last book.  We just have to wait a little (or a lot) longer before we get the final payoff. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, unJon said:

New theory on Hologram Kel. It is really God Kel manifested just like the Wright Under the Mountain in TJE. Kel is salted, Kel descends into hell with a hunger, Kel does some asskickery in hell and gets godlike powers. Kel uses said powers to maifest in Earwa just like Ajokli did (and the Daimos bound Ciphrang did in reverse earlier in TUC). Then either Mimara and her judging eye vanished Kel like it did with Wright Under the Mountain (she no longer needs the crutch of a chorae for that trick) or the No-God turning on vanishes Kel when it shuts the Outside. 

I think it's consistent with the evidence, but only just thought of it so everyone feel free to shoot it down. 

+1 love this

[Faint]

11 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

@Faint, I is not the people have trouble with seeing the Kellhus failed, its clear he failed. The No-God awoke, the Ordeal destroyed and the Consult still on their wicked mission. But, Kellhus dying before the resurrection of the No-God, hence passing onto the Outside, lends itself to more speculation. Was that part of the plan? With the Outside not shut, will Kellhus aid in destroying the No-God? Will he dominate the Outside and thus change how things go for souls on the Outside? He failed in accomplishing the destruction of the Consult, but maybe he didn't. Maybe he knew Ajokli's nature and deceived him. As with anything in this series, it's ambiguous and open to speculation.

ETA: that being said, I'm quite fine if and when we get the 3rd series that Kellhus is nowhere to be found. And, it's purely humanity fighting for humanity. Though, I think the series would lose a lot for me if it's a whole series of just the destruction of Earwa. And, no redemption at all for Mimara, Akka and Esme.

Obviously this is all opinion at this point but I really do not think that Kellhus in any way planning what happened to him is what Bakker was going for here. In my mind, Anasûrimbor Kellhus was his try at the greatest red herring in the history of fantasy literature. 

As to your latter point, I have no firm guesses at what happens in the concluding part of the series, but I am doubtful that it ends in unmitigated doom and gloom (we already had our full serving of that right now). 

[Damelon]

4 minutes ago, Faint said:

Obviously this is all opinion at this point but I really do not think that Kellhus in any way planning what happened to him is what Bakker was going for here. In my mind, Anasûrimbor Kellhus was his try at the greatest red herring in the history of fantasy literature. 

As to your latter point, I have no firm guesses at what happens in the concluding part of the series, but I am doubtful that it ends in unmitigated doom and gloom (we already had our full serving of that right now). 

Ah, it dawns on me, TUC = TSA's TESB...?

Now, we're headed for Ewoks...

 

 

[Faint]

Just now, Damelon said:

Ah, it dawns on me, TUC = TSA's TESB...?

Now, we're headed for Ewoks...

I was actually about to compare it to that but specifically did not because I did not want to bring ROTJ to mind.