The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD

[Damelon]

1 minute ago, Faint said:

I was actually about to compare it to that but specifically did not because I did not want to bring ROTJ to mind. 

You mean, I pulled an Ajokli?

[Castel]

On 7/11/2017 at 1:49 PM, Faint said:

Is there no one taking the death of Kellhus at face value? That he died; no, it was not part of his master plan; and yes, he utterly failed.

I truly feel that this was what Bakker was going for and am somewhat flabbergasted that many are still operating under the old – in my opinion, outdated – default assumption (i.e., this is just another layer of a deeper plan).

I find this doubly strange since I think Esmenet and Kelmomas (or, rather, their interactions with Kellhus), were used quite effectively to lampshade this ultimate failure, particularly in the early chapters of this last book.

In any case, my view of things has piqued my curiosity even more for the final two books in the series now that the Dûnyain superhero has been done away.  I really credit Bakker with committing so strongly to the fake messiah narrative and upending the narrative expectations so thoroughly going into the last third of the story.

I think people end up believing in kellhus planning everything towards some great end out mostly cause everything else is so unpalatable. I mean...it's not like the Inchoroi or gods can win. Well, they can but who wants that?

EDIT: Also, did Proyas have haloes? Ah, I remember when that was a thing.

5 minutes ago, Damelon said:

Ah, it dawns on me, TUC = TSA's TESB...?

Now, we're headed for Ewoks...

 

 

I don't want to see Bakker's take on Ewoks...

[Faint]

Just now, Castel said:

I think people end up believing in kellhus planning everything towards some great end out mostly cause everything else is so unpalatable. I mean...it's not like the Inchoroi or gods can win. Well, they can but who wants that?

Well, to that I say, is it a coincidence that Achamian, Mimara and Esmenet are still alive? 

[Castel]

Just now, Faint said:

Well, to that I say, is it a coincidence that Achamian, Mimara and Esmenet are still alive? 

The thing about them is that they're not as convenient to hang hopes on. Akka is doing things for Akka reasons and Mimara is actively working for/with the forces that make victory for any side -even the Ordeal- so unpalatable.

Kellhus is one character you can really believe could conceivably solve both the Consult and Damnation within the scope of a book or two in the TAE series, as the plot went

With Akka and Mimara it's harder to tell.

[Damelon]

4 minutes ago, Castel said:

The thing about them is that they're not as convenient to hang hopes on. Akka is doing things for Akka reasons and Mimara is actively working for/with the forces that make victory for any side -even the Ordeal- so unpalatable.

Kellhus is one character you can really believe could conceivably solve both the Consult and Damnation within the scope of a book or two in the TAE series, as the plot went

With Akka and Mimara it's harder to tell.

Yet, Kellhus is more an enigma than a character, and we can relate much more with Akka and Mimara. So the payoff, I believe, could be wonderful.

[Darth Richard II]

Ewoks are nastier little fuckers then people give them credit for. I mean, they EAT PEOPLE.

[Damelon]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

Ewoks are nastier little fuckers then people give them credit for. I mean, they EAT PEOPLE.

LOL and they adore goldplated technology...!

[Faint]

Is there a consensus opinion on the fates of Kayutas and Serwa? 

I am kind of hoping that Bakker did not kill them off (as seems to be case) because I would find it quite interesting to get their point of view now that it has been uncovered that their father is a fraud and failure. 

Would the natural evolution of their stories lead them to now joint the Consult? Bakker sort of hinted at how their entire underpinning was belief in their father (specifically in the conversations between Serwa and Sorweel, as well as those between the former and Kelmomas), so I would hate to find out that we never get to read about what becomes of them now that their entire belief system has been shattered. 

 

[Kalbear]

38 minutes ago, Damelon said:

Ah, it dawns on me, TUC = TSA's TESB...?

Now, we're headed for Ewoks...

 

I did say that the ending was a lot like TESB, but ending right at the point where Luke's hand gets cut off

[Damelon]

Just now, Kalbear said:

I did say that the ending was a lot like TESB, but ending right at the point where Luke's hand gets cut off

True, Kalbear. I was joking of course. The reference could possibly have either slipped my mind or unconsciously slipped right back.

[Faint]

I think that is a little harsh, I mean, we did get to see the 'heroes' flee on what passes as the Millennium Falcon in Bakker World. 

[Kalbear]

37 minutes ago, Castel said:

I think people end up believing in kellhus planning everything towards some great end out mostly cause everything else is so unpalatable. I mean...it's not like the Inchoroi or gods can win. Well, they can but who wants that?

I'm all about team Consult. 

That said, for me the problem is not Kellhus being right or winning being the best ending, it's that Kellhus failing because he had a blind spot for his love of Esmi is so incredibly stupid. It's not particularly illustrated, it's beyond bizarre that Kellhus would bring her to the Great Ordeal if that were the case (clearly, the best place to put her is in the middle of the biggest battle in history), and it simply feels narratively weak. Even if you explain it as Ajokli making Kellhus do these things, it still feels like a bad mixture of 'god did it' with 'this is how it worked because this is what happened'. 

 

[Hello World]

So what was the point of the whole "you will kneel" in TTT and then Achamian kneeling to save Proyas in TUC? Is it just to say that Kellhus could see the future at that point? Or did Kellhus orchestrate the whole Proyas thing in TUC just to get Achamian to kneel to him?

[lokisnow]

Yeah rather than kellhus telling Esme "because you are my only darkness"

wouldnt it have been better if he said something that echoed koringhus but was subtly "off" and thus function as finale foreshadowing such as:

"because this is how everything has always already happened"

then the reader spends time wondering if kellhus reached the same conclusion as koringhus and is even more blindsided at discovery kellhus is possessed by ajokli.

i have to say, props to all the bros who spent post TTT release geeking out with  speculation "won't it be kewl when kellhus goes all meta diamos? Rawr! Pwew pwew pwew! So rad! Kellhus is the best!"

[lokisnow]

Just now, Hello World said:

So what was the point of the whole "you will kneel" in TTT and then Achamian kneeling to save Proyas in TUC? Is it just to say that Kellhus could see the future at that point? Or did Kellhus orchestrate the whole Proyas thing in TUC just to get Achamian to kneel to him?

I would say that Akka kneeling is a skin-a-ma-rink-co-inky-dink and isn't really a prophecy, more like an Easter egg for fans paying too much attention.

[unJon]

3 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

I would say that Akka kneeling is a skin-a-ma-rink-co-inky-dink and isn't really a prophecy, more like an Easter egg for fans paying too much attention.

Akka kneeling is explained wholly within TTT. Kel tells him earlier that Akka need never kneel to Kel because they are friends. At the end of TTT, Kel says next time you will kneel, not as prophecy, but by way of telling him they are no longer friends. 

[Faint]

13 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Yeah rather than kellhus telling Esme "because you are my only darkness"

wouldnt it have been better if he said something that echoed koringhus but was subtly "off" and thus function as finale foreshadowing such as:

"because this is how everything has always already happened"

then the reader spends time wondering if kellhus reached the same conclusion as koringhus and is even more blindsided at discovery kellhus is possessed by ajokli.

i have to say, props to all the bros who spent post TTT release geeking out with  speculation "won't it be kewl when kellhus goes all meta diamos? Rawr! Pwew pwew pwew! So rad! Kellhus is the best!"

I still wonder at the choice Bakker made here. I guess he was really tied to the idea that he wanted Kelmomas to be the No-God and he also wanted something to justify Achamian being alive, but I just feel there were much better, alternative explanations on hand.  I think, on a narrative level, it would have been more satisfying if letting Achamian live was the fuck up somehow but not at all for the reasons we are given in the story. 

[jurble]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

it's beyond bizarre that Kellhus would bring her to the Great Ordeal if that were the case (clearly, the best place to put her is in the middle of the biggest battle in history),

Exactly, if he wanted to protect her, he would've dropped her off in Conriya with Proyas' family, since we're told Conriya is the most stable portion of the New Empire (no Orthodox rebellions).  Moreover, he does it after Dagliash, the point, which he tells the DunSult, he confirmed that the Dunyain ruled the Consult and so he seemed to be enacting some manner of contingency. 

[Hello World]

1 hour ago, unJon said:

Akka kneeling is explained wholly within TTT. Kel tells him earlier that Akka need never kneel to Kel because they are friends. At the end of TTT, Kel says next time you will kneel, not as prophecy, but by way of telling him they are no longer friends. 

What's the significance of his prediction actually coming true 20 years later in a seemingly unpredictable way? Just a coincidence?

By the way, did anyone get the feeling that when Achamian begs Kellhus to free Proyas and he says "something must be eaten" that this was Bakker showing us what an asshole Kellhus is? That he was blatantly mocking Proyas after setting him up?

[Darth Richard II]

1 minute ago, Hello World said:

What's the significance of his prediction actually coming true 20 years later in a seemingly unpredictable way? Just a coincidence?

By the way, did anyone get the feeling that when Achamian begs Kellhus to free Proyas and he says "something must be eaten" that this was Bakker showing us what an asshole Kellhus is? That he was blatantly mocking Proyas after setting him up?

And yet there are STILL people who think Kellus is awesome and perfect. STILL.

And the book isn't even out in America yet