Castel Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Kalbear said: I'm all about team Consult. There's always that one guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapushiSun Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Kalbear said: while the No-God walked, and it worked, it didn't succeed in shutting off the Outside, and will need to do more in the future. I think that's because it hadn't reduced the population down to 144,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapushiSun Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Hello World said: did anyone get the feeling that when Achamian begs Kellhus to free Proyas and he says "something must be eaten" that this was Bakker showing us what an asshole Kellhus is? That he was blatantly mocking Proyas after setting him up? I don't think Kellhus was mocking Proyas or Akka. Kellhus told Proyas that lying to Proyas would be giving in to the darkness within him, i.e. doing something without truly knowing why. Mocking Proyas would be giving in to the darkness. When he says 'something must be eaten', he means that hard decisions had to be taken. Executing Proyas is one such decision. Proyas had to be eaten for the greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Castel said: There's always that one guy In the Golden Room scene I was totally rooting for the Consult, but that's probably because I hated Kellhus and wanted him to lose more than anything, and their plan seems very reasonable compared to eternal damnation for almost everyone or Kellhus's bargain with Ajokli. But who knows if another better solution to the damnation and Consult problems will come up in the third series involving Mimara's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 As an aside, Mimara's name is anagram for Mariam, Arabic (and original Aramaic) name for Mary. Though Bakker himself said he wasn't sure if that was intentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayward_ishroi Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Some random thoughts: What would happen if you taught the Psukhe to a Holca. Would the Holca's two hearts result in some kind of Meta-Psukhe? The glossary talks about Emilidis being obsessed with an "uncreated creation"... I am struggling to figure out the significance of this. Also, I am still confused as to the inclusion of the bit about Sirwitta and Cimoira in TTT appendix. End of series 2 and still no clarity on why this was significant. Except the bit about Emilidis being a foundling - perhaps a child of Cimoira? But what would the significance of that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Castel said: There's always that one guy Sure. At the same time, if you knew - not guessed, but actually knew - that after you died everyone you ever loved and all the rest of humanity would suffer forever and ever in incredibly agony save a few who were so evil that they got to eat other people - there would be no single thing that you could possibly do in the real world that would be worse than that. There is literally nothing worse than suffering for an infinite amount of years. And for that reason, there exists no possible better tasks than to stop it. Now, shutting off the Outside and stopping births isn't a great solution, and I'd love a better one, but it's much better than the alternative of doing nothing, and it's much better than the alternative of simply choosing one of the worst of the gods and giving him the entire population to feed from while he encourages his angels to cause massive suffering and anguish so it can feed more (this is precisely what Ajokli says he'll do). So yeah, got a better idea? Go to town. Otherwise go team Consult! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 *starts making team consult shirts* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 40 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Sure. At the same time, if you knew - not guessed, but actually knew - that after you died everyone you ever loved and all the rest of humanity would suffer forever and ever in incredibly agony save a few who were so evil that they got to eat other people - there would be no single thing that you could possibly do in the real world that would be worse than that. There is literally nothing worse than suffering for an infinite amount of years. And for that reason, there exists no possible better tasks than to stop it. Now, shutting off the Outside and stopping births isn't a great solution, and I'd love a better one, but it's much better than the alternative of doing nothing, and it's much better than the alternative of simply choosing one of the worst of the gods and giving him the entire population to feed from while he encourages his angels to cause massive suffering and anguish so it can feed more (this is precisely what Ajokli says he'll do). So yeah, got a better idea? Go to town. Otherwise go team Consult! Oh, sure, logically I just think it's kinda like a trolley problem; if you force people, leave them absolutely no chance they'll go for saving the most people.But they'll probably dodge being proactively on Team "Personally push this fat guy off the bridge" if they feel there's any other possible option. I think they'll just wish for some other solution. Besides, I thought you also hated their (apparent) incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, Castel said: Oh, sure, logically I just think it's kinda like a trolley problem; if you force people, leave them absolutely no chance they'll go for saving the most people.But they'll probably dodge being proactively on Team "Personally push this fat guy off the bridge" if they feel there's any other possible option. I think they'll just wish for some other solution. Besides, I thought you also hated their (apparent) incompetence. I don't exactly hate their incompetence, I simply got tired of stating it over and over again, and folks arguing with me about it. It's kind of like the sexism thing; it seemed really obvious that the Consult wasn't particularly competent and this was by design, and there had to be some reason for it. While we joked about space janitors that got pretty close to the truth; they weren't janitors, they were combat drones. Well, combat drones that apparently were designed to rape things. I had liked the idea that the Inchoroi were neither competent or incompetent, they were instead operating on deeply moral grounds and that colored what they did and why, but that apparently isn't it. No, they just kind of sucked at it. They didn't know what they were doing, didn't have the brains to do a good job of cause and effect or any kind of scientific method, and couldn't really control the No-God once it got loose, I guess. That, IMO, is going to be something interesting - to see how actual competent villains use the No-God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 5 hours ago, Hello World said: What's the significance of his prediction actually coming true 20 years later in a seemingly unpredictable way? Just a coincidence? By the way, did anyone get the feeling that when Achamian begs Kellhus to free Proyas and he says "something must be eaten" that this was Bakker showing us what an asshole Kellhus is? That he was blatantly mocking Proyas after setting him up? Not such a hard prediction. At the time Kellhus made it, basically 99.9% of all people in his presence kneeled to him. I think the TUC kneel was an Easter Egg to fans rather than having significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 So going back a long ways: Big Moe back in the day interrogated skin-spies and found out that the Consult would be able to resurrect the No-God in 20-40 years, at least that's what they were planning. How would they do that, though? As far as I can tell they had basically no idea what they needed to do save throw more bodies into it, and unless Kellhus et al return, they're stuck. Were they lying? Or just hopeful and just now able to get the No-God carapace from...I dunno, blowing up or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: So going back a long ways: Big Moe back in the day interrogated skin-spies and found out that the Consult would be able to resurrect the No-God in 20-40 years, at least that's what they were planning. How would they do that, though? As far as I can tell they had basically no idea what they needed to do save throw more bodies into it, and unless Kellhus et al return, they're stuck. Were they lying? Or just hopeful and just now able to get the No-God carapace from...I dunno, blowing up or something? Perhaps he was just going off their innovations with skin-spies? Or they may have fixed some element of the Carapace but not had the final ingredient. Moe is a sort of skeptical guy, who he naturally discounts bullshit like "you need the soul of an Anasurimbor, it's in this prophecy!" and instead believes that they'll inch their way to the right conclusion again. That's assuming that it's Moe's conclusion. If it's the Consult's...then it's hard to imagine how they came to it. The above logic can kinda work for them...except the Dunyain tell us that they just chuck souls into the functioning Carapace for MILLENIA before it worked lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 34 minutes ago, Castel said: Perhaps he was just going off their innovations with skin-spies? Or they may have fixed some element of the Carapace but not had the final ingredient. Moe is a sort of skeptical guy, who he naturally discounts bullshit like "you need the soul of an Anasurimbor, it's in this prophecy!" and instead believes that they'll inch their way to the right conclusion again. Well, they don't believe the prophecy either - not until the Dunyain come along. Before that they're just continuing to chuck things in the carapace. At least that's how I took it to mean. 34 minutes ago, Castel said: That's assuming that it's Moe's conclusion. If it's the Consult's...then it's hard to imagine how they came to it. The above logic can kinda work for them...except the Dunyain tell us that they just chuck souls into the functioning Carapace for MILLENIA before it worked lol. Yeah, it's sort of stated as fact that the Consult is gearing up soon, but Moe certainly didn't know about it then, and the recent events we know now indicate that it really wasn't that close to being done - not, at least, without Kellhus' help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Kalbear said: That, IMO, is going to be something interesting - to see how actual competent villains use the No-God. Can they use the No-God? We're told the Consult made themselves slaves when they first summoned the No-God. That implies it has a mind of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Just now, Ajûrbkli said: Can they use the No-God? We're told the Consult made themselves slaves when they first summoned the No-God. That implies it has a mind of its own. Well, maybe. Another possibility is that the No-God prosthesis is a system that controls all Tekne systems under Ark. Which means that not only were the Sranc and Bashrag and Wracu controlled, so were the Inchoroi. In that way they absolutely became enslaved, unable to do anything more than the will of Ark. I'm not sure how much I buy this given that we have a description of both the No-God and Aurang fighting separately and unable to get ground, but it would make some sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheep the Evicted Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 12 hours ago, Kalbear said: I know that we're told that he loves Esmi, in whatever passes for his soul, and that Kelmomas, Akka and Mimara are preserved because of this love - but I never felt it. Yeah, but some of us did. I think you and Faint are just expecting too much from Kellhus, he's not a person, he's basically just a computer and ever once in a while his ruthless logic gets clouded by the shadow of human emotion. Love for him seems to just be valuing another person for more than just their utility. But like Serwe and Proyas showed us, if ever that person needs to be sacrificed for his goals then he won't hesitate. He'll just feel slightly bad about it afterwards. For instance I don't buy that Kel/Akka/Mim only live because of Esme, I think that's what he told her to manipulate her, he's keeping them alive because he can see some use for them. Its not much but this is the Messiah we are getting. Speaking of which Faint, your right I honestly can't visualise what it would be like for Kellhus to fail completely. You think he is in hell being feasted on right now ? I think the most likely outcome is that everything is going as planned. When Koringhus was surprised he blinked, but when Kellhus is surprised he stutters, visibly shocked ? Its such an overreaction that I have to assume its an act. The fact that - according to my reading of things - Aojikli comes back a few minutes later claiming he has been cheated seems to support this. Also when Kel told the Dunyain the gods were blind to him they put it together in seconds but Kellhus who saw it happen twice somehow completely ignores it ? Next most likely outcome then is that he was surprised. Yep, he somehow missed the fact that Kel was the No-God, what now ? I guess the most humiliating outcome for Kellhus is that he is now trapped on the other head on his belt and he can't do anything until someone comes to find him. Maybe there is a waithi doll en-route, maybe not either way its better than hell. Or maybe he actually is in Hell but he's now a Ciphrang. Maybe he's a god waging war on God. There is a lot of scenario's here but the only one I can't really accept is that Kel is just another victim in the Pit. 12 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said: It's not impossible that God is both immanent and transcendent... Yeah i think this might be the case. Fits in with what Kellhus was saying about no Prophet being able to see the whole truth, Fane and Sejenus each had a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 7 hours ago, Kalbear said: So going back a long ways: Big Moe back in the day interrogated skin-spies and found out that the Consult would be able to resurrect the No-God in 20-40 years, at least that's what they were planning. How would they do that, though? As far as I can tell they had basically no idea what they needed to do save throw more bodies into it, and unless Kellhus et al return, they're stuck. Were they lying? Or just hopeful and just now able to get the No-God carapace from...I dunno, blowing up or something? Yeah, agree this feels hard to explain given what we now know about the carapace. I think lying by the skin spy can't be the right explanation. A lie wouldn't fool Moe. Maybe the Consult lies to the skin spy so that the skin spy really believed that timeline. Maybe that timeline was based on other repairs that needed to be made to the carapace so that it would be fully ready as soon as it gets the right Soul Battery inserted? But hard to make that timeline work otherwise given how long it might take to find the right soul battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapushiSun Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 So what is the No-God? This is the explanation of the Dunyain: Quote "That the No-God collapses Subject and Object," the one-eyed monk replied. "That it is the Absolute." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterX Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, PapushiSun said: So what is the No-God? This is the explanation of the Dunyain: I tend to agree with that. Other 'quotes' (don't have book handy, but remember these). Proyas: "And the God of Gods?" Kellhus: "As blind to his creation as we are to ourselves." Kelmomas: "Will you kill me?" Kellhus: "I'm not sure there is anyone to kill." The No-God seems to be a P-zombie, active without the slightest trace of consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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