The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD

[Castel]

5 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

How do you reconcile that conclusion with Ajokli not knowing where Kellhus is? (The entire point of the Cnaiur section at the end).  Hell is Ajokli's playground and he can't find Kellhus there.

Gilgaol also has a four-horned visage (because of his crown) right? I thought it was Gilgaol that Cnaiur was with. Seems like the best thematic fit for a divine patron.

Honestly, this is why you only have one Steve per book. 

[draft0]

On 7/1/2017 at 10:13 AM, redeagl said:

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KELLHUS IS DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally.

 

Shit, I shouldn't have clicked on this.

Well--as they say--it's the journey, not the destination (I guess)...

[PapushiSun]

5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

we have him saying that he's aligned with and kind of is Ajokli, we have him saying his plan is to cause massive horror and pain on Earwa and have Ajokli feed on it.

So Kellhus' plan was: to get Ajokli to Golgotterath so that the God would destroy it and the Consult, and in return for that Ajokli would get free reign on Earwa. Is that right?

[Spring Bass]

9 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

So Kellhus' plan was: to get Ajokli to Golgotterath so that the God would destroy it and the Consult, and in return for that Ajokli would get free reign on Earwa. Is that right?

Yep. 

Welp, another round of failed predictions and hopes on books by me. I was really hoping Mimara would pay off more, that we might get the "disenchantment" that would fit with Bakker's occasional obsession with the semantic apocalypse. But nope. 

Hmm. If Kellhus cut a deal with Ajokli, then I wonder if other sorcerers have cut deals with members of the Hundred for "redemption". Would that even be possible, or are their souls so tasty because sorcery = damnation that the ciphrang get them first? No god specializing in grabbing sorcerers, unless Seswatha accidentally created a lesser god/entity in the Outside by binding part of his soul and memories to all of the Mandate Schoolmen. 

[Castel]

1 hour ago, Summer Bass said:

Yep. 

Welp, another round of failed predictions and hopes on books by me. I was really hoping Mimara would pay off more, that we might get the "disenchantment" that would fit with Bakker's occasional obsession with the semantic apocalypse. But nope. 

Hmm. If Kellhus cut a deal with Ajokli, then I wonder if other sorcerers have cut deals with members of the Hundred for "redemption". Would that even be possible, or are their souls so tasty because sorcery = damnation that the ciphrang get them first? No god specializing in grabbing sorcerers, unless Seswatha accidentally created a lesser god/entity in the Outside by binding part of his soul and memories to all of the Mandate Schoolmen. 

I doubt many of them have as much to offer as Kellhus. 

[jurble]

Moreover it would be limited to Daimotic sorcerers, which is more or less just the Scarlet Spires.  Kellhus combined the Daimos and the Metagnosis to teleport into the Outside.  I doubt Iyokus is capable of a similar feat. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

13 hours ago, WalterX said:

Kelmomas: "Will you kill me?"
Kellhus: "I'm not sure there is anyone to kill."

That there Sir, might be the best piece of evidence put forth so far (first time I've seen it anyway), that Kellhus knew Kel was the No-God and really did trick Ajokli. Going back to get Esme and Kel, knowing Esme would release Kel, "Stay away from his chains!". Is a very good piece of evidence that Kellhus is indeed not finished, duped Ajokli and is waging war on the 100 in the Outside.

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, Castel said:

Honestly, this is why you only have one Steve per book. 

HOLY CRAP SO MUCH THIS.

4 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

So Kellhus' plan was: to get Ajokli to Golgotterath so that the God would destroy it and the Consult, and in return for that Ajokli would get free reign on Earwa. Is that right?

That's my take on it, yes. Or at least that was the deal that Kellhus gave to Ajokli. Whether or not it was the actual deal, I don't know. But yeah - Ajokli wanted access to the granary. He wanted to be able to basically change the entire population to be souls that he would devour - souls filled with horror, anguish and hate. 

2 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Moreover it would be limited to Daimotic sorcerers, which is more or less just the Scarlet Spires.  Kellhus combined the Daimos and the Metagnosis to teleport into the Outside.  I doubt Iyokus is capable of a similar feat. 

Per Akka, the Gnostic ones knew of ways into the Outside, but skipped them because they were too dangerous to do. They could, however, do them in various ways. That said, I think there aren't many gods that would make a deal simply because none of the other gods recognized the potential danger - nor did they see the potential gain. 

This also puts the Yatwerian opposition of Kellhus in a very interesting light - not only is Yatwer against Ajokli in general, she's specifically against him because he is going to ruin the entire granary. That also makes sense why other gods might oppose him. And they're not going to war and starting things - they're seeing Kellhus manifest as Ajokli and basically proclaiming that they have to do something now in order to stop Ajokli. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Oh, @Kalbear I seen in a thread before I read the book where you said we find out who Kellhus talk to in his dreams? I didn't see any definitive answer, though I could of easily missed it. Could you elaborate, please?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Oh, @Kalbear I seen in a thread before I read the book where you said we find out who Kellhus talk to in his dreams? I didn't see any definitive answer, though I could of easily missed it. Could you elaborate, please?

Ajokli, I thought that was pretty clear. My interpretation is that Kellhus has been talking with Ajokli since the circumfix. The haloed hands were Ajokli's. His trick with the heart was chicanery through Ajokli. 

His 'going mad' was him being Ajokli's version of Psatma. 

Which makes a crazy amount of sense from the pantheon, given that Ajokli is known to be the god of deception, and Kellhus is doing a deception that has never been matched. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Ajokli, I thought that was pretty clear. My interpretation is that Kellhus has been talking with Ajokli since the circumfix. The haloed hands were Ajokli's. His trick with the heart was chicanery through Ajokli. 

His 'going mad' was him being Ajokli's version of Psatma. 

Which makes a crazy amount of sense from the pantheon, given that Ajokli is known to be the god of deception, and Kellhus is doing a deception that has never been matched. 

Gotcha, thanks for responding. That makes sense, but I don't know if I buy it. We see (IMHO) Ajokli as the most crocodillian Son in the "Head on the Pole" scenes in TGO. And, I don't know where but when I have time ill try and get a quote to provide proof to my thinking. But, Kellhus mentions that once he mastered the Daimos is when gained this enormous power and feels like to me that is when he struck the deal with Ajokli. It even makes more sense now the line in TGO about how the Son (Ajokli) says that Kellhus said that the last time he was there, that he'd never been there before, the Outside. And, also the most crocodillian (again, I'm my mind, Ajokli) offers Kellhus to drink from the babe and all that. Looking back to show Kellhus the power he would receive. 

That's why even though Kellhus failed in destroying the Consult and stopping the No-God, I feel that if it is his self that he saw in the dreams, maybe he tricked Ajokli indeed. And, could be warring against the Gods as a way to stop damnation. Its also hopeful thinking, I admit. But, its plausible, I would say.

[Kalbear]

Oh, I think that the plain on Mengedda is when he struck the deal and the bargain, but he knew to talk with Ajokli because he had been talking with Ajokli from the getgo. That was when he actually visited in the flesh Ajokli, instead of simply talking with him at various random points of his life when he was under massive anguish. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Oh, I think that the plain on Mengedda is when he struck the deal and the bargain, but he knew to talk with Ajokli because he had been talking with Ajokli from the getgo. That was when he actually visited in the flesh Ajokli, instead of simply talking with him at various random points of his life when he was under massive anguish. 

So as the Trickster, Deciever, etc, Ajokli came to Kellhus in his dreams as Kellhus sans haloes? Hmm.

I find it very reasonable, and tbh, I think we're likely done with Kellhus if and when we get TSTSNBN. The more I think on it.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

So as the Trickster, Deciever, etc, Ajokli came to Kellhus in his dreams as Kellhus sans haloes? Hmm.

Guess it depends on which dreams you're talking about, but if Kellhus and Ajokli are switching heads it makes a weird kind of sense to have him be talking with himself in one form or another.

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I find it very reasonable, and tbh, I think we're likely done with Kellhus if and when we get TSTSNBN.

Again, the actual ambiguity is exceptionally problematic. A denouement of having Kellhus in hell or making it much clearer that he is not would have helped; it's not going to ruin things for people to know that there IS something that's going to happen in a certain direction. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Just now, Kalbear said:

Again, the actual ambiguity is exceptionally problematic. A denouement of having Kellhus in hell or making it much clearer that he is not would have helped; it's not going to ruin things for people to know that there IS something that's going to happen in a certain direction. 

I agree, alas, classic Bakker and this whole series, tbh. Except for the fact that Women are lesser than Men. I honestly believe that to be a nod to me and your consistent arguing, lol.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, the actual ambiguity is exceptionally problematic. A denouement of having Kellhus in hell or making it much clearer that he is not would have helped; it's not going to ruin things for people to know that there IS something that's going to happen in a certain direction. 

I agree, alas, classic Bakker and this whole series, tbh. Except for the fact that Women are lesser than Men. I honestly believe that to be a nod to me and your consistent arguing, lol.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I agree, alas, classic Bakker and this whole series, tbh. Except for the fact that Women are lesser than Men. I honestly believe that to be a nod to me and your consistent arguing, lol.

I still think it would be really funny for Akka to have to do a quest like Seswatha did and go into Golgotterath - and not acquire the Heron Spear, but to acquire Malowebi and Kellhus' other head.

Maybe that demon that went off to go fuck things up in Zeum comes back and says 'oh shit guys, we need more of my heads'. 

[jurble]

Looking through the glossary again, I notice the Schools entry hasn't been updated to remove the "Circle of Nibel" school that doesn't exist.

[Castel]

Plains of Megedda was in TWP right? I think as late as TTT Kellhus seemed unsure who was talking to him and thought it was the No-God. I assumed he made the deal later, whenever he figured out the Daimos  and realized it wasn't the No-God talking to him but Ajokli.

But...I honestly wonder if this was Bakker's intent all along or if he switched at some point and turned Kellhus/No-God into a red herring.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, Castel said:

Plains of Megedda was in TWP right? I think as late as TTT Kellhus seemed unsure who was talking to him and thought it was the No-God. I assumed he made the deal later, whenever he figured out the Daimos  and realized it wasn't the No-God talking to him but Ajokli.

But...I honestly wonder if this was Bakker's intent all along or if he switched at some point and turned Kellhus/No-God into a red herring.

By Plains of Mengedda I assume he's talking about the the glossary entry on the decapitants. Or, is that what you was referring to?

I just think it leaves room for Bakker to do what he will with Kellhus and it can be believable.