The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD

[Castel]

Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

By Plains of Mengedda I assume he's talking about the the glossary entry on the decapitants. Or, is that what you was referring to?

I just think it leaves room for Bakker to do what he will with Kellhus and it can be believable.

Oh, looked it up,that makes sense. I was thinking about them passing through it in Prince of Nothing at some point. 

[Happy Ent]

I’m trying to understand the Decapitants. (In particular, I’d like to know which is which when, and to whom.)

No conclusions below, just data collection—some descriptions, from various observers. It seems to me that the heads look very different to different observers, and possibly at different times. I’m not sure how much insight we can eventually mine this for.

Kelmo

Quote

 

The fire made shining hooks of the creases about his shoulders and elbows. One of the Decapitants lay akimbo across the other, so that its black-paper scrutiny repeated the implacable regard of his father, who stared directly at him, knowing full well the boy only pretended to sleep.

 

I think “black-paper” head is the Malowebi-head.

Proyas (or is it Sorweel? the rest of the passage is clearly a Proy-POV, but there may be shoddy editing at work):

Quote

 

As one they saw Him step down from the highest of the nearly vacant tiers, near enough for Sorweel to lean out and touch. It seemed the sun itself descended upon its own ray, a beam bearing the twin ink stains of the Decapitants.

 

To Proyas, the heads bear “twin ink stains” (see Malo later).
Malowebi:

Quote

 

The greater horror of this lay in the finality it betokened. If a demon possessed his body, then repossession remained a possibility ... He had been stolen, yes, but he had not been destroyed. No matter how pathetic, he could still plot escape, he could still take aim. But realizing his very own head swung from the Anasûrimbor’s hip transformed what had been a prison into a trophy, a probing soul into a mummified gaze.

 

No conclusion here as to how the heads look, only the clearest hint towards the theory that Kellhus’s soul is alive and well, dangling from a salt statue in the Golden Room.

Sorweel:

Quote

 

Then Eskeles is stumbling into nonexistence, and the moment-once-called-Sorweel is kneeling directly before the Ciphrang, breathing deep the sweet scent of myrrh. The infernal Decapitants hang askew, each angled against the other, the Zeumi so low that its stump twirls upon the carpets.

 

Notable because Sorweel clearly identifies the Zeümi head.

Achamian:

Quote

The legendary Decapitants swayed gangrenous from his hip, bound to his nimil-scaled girdle by their hair. Eyelids twitched in deep sockets, revealing glimpses of glass, oiled and black. Ingrown lips masticated about teeth like black nails, as if murmuring.

Notable because to Akka, the Decapitants are textbook demon heads. They don’t look human.

Objective epic battle POV (this is the omniscient 3rd person Homerian perspective):

Quote

The Decapitants swayed from his hip, as always, smudges of black and thistle.

Malowebi, when Kellhus and Aurang battle

Quote

Falling, utterly helpless as the head that was his vessel floated and lolled. He glimpsed the other Decapitant, saw scaled cheeks and a line of iron horns jutting from black hair, orange eyes that could have been as dead or alive as his own.

 

and later in the Golden Room:

Quote

 

For the first time, Malowebi found his gaze hooked on the other diabolical head hanging with him against the Aspect-Emperor’s thigh—the other Decapitant. For the first time, he noticed the same obscuring distortion that marred the Anasûrimbor—like globules of ink hanging in quicksilver—marring it.

 

This, of course, has already been observed upthread. At this time, we can assume that dread Ajokli inhabits Kellhus. It stands to reason that the soul of Kellhus has taken refuge in the other head.
 

Earlier, in Great Ordeal, Malo had this to say. (This is before his own head has been replaced.)

Quote

from his war-girdle hung the famed Decapitants, miens like floating nightmares swinging about his left thigh.

 

[PapushiSun]

8 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That's my take on it, yes. Or at least that was the deal that Kellhus gave to Ajokli. Whether or not it was the actual deal, I don't know. But yeah - Ajokli wanted access to the granary. He wanted to be able to basically change the entire population to be souls that he would devour - souls filled with horror, anguish and hate. 

Why the hell does Kellhus think turning the world over to Ajokli is a price worth paying for defeating the Consult?

[Valandil]

6 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

Why the hell does Kellhus think turning the world over to Ajokli is a price worth paying for defeating the Consult?

Defeating consult is not necessarily the aim, salvation for himself and in my opinion mankind from damnation are likely to be his goals. If this involves defeating consult, great, if it involves assuming control of them also great. The Consult are irrelevant other than as a tool or obstacle. 

Interesting stuff on the Decapitants.

[PapushiSun]

9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

This also puts the Yatwerian opposition of Kellhus in a very interesting light - not only is Yatwer against Ajokli in general, she's specifically against him because he is going to ruin the entire granary. That also makes sense why other gods might oppose him. And they're not going to war and starting things - they're seeing Kellhus manifest as Ajokli and basically proclaiming that they have to do something now in order to stop Ajokli. 

Excellent point. One of the Mutilated specifically says Ajokli's siblings are hunting him and that Ajokli thinks he can hide at Golgotterath.

[polishgenius]

I haven't got the depths of insight that some of y'all have on this yet (gonna need a bit of a reread to catch everything) but some thoughts on finishing:


I mirror most people's thoughts on the dragon. It was silly. The actual battle was great (as was the moment before with the chap who got himself eaten), but for your final boss, dread guardian of the gate, you go for a mysoginistic milipede? Really?

Most of the actual assault on Golgoterath was awesome though. Goes straight up there as a classic battle of fantasy.

Couple of other people mentioned this, but what was the point of the demon?  It seems like its escape is meant to be significant but nothing seems to come of it and as a result, after its very effective buildup, vile angel disappears in an anticlimax. The only thing if real significance is its description of Golgoterath-as-Topos, which may be supposed to be a hint to Kellhus' games later on but is something we knew already (unless the possible implication that it's the place itself, as much as the suffering inflicted here, that's burning through reality that's supposed to be significant, but that still never comes to anything).

Kelmomas-as-No-God is a great twist that a few people did catch coming (and having seen it said, it was very obvious early on that that was where it was going to go). Kellhus-as-Ajokii is a great twist that I don't think anyone saw coming? But it makes so much sense. And I'm in the camp that I can't see him being out of the game, although I'm also not sure he's going to have specifically planned what's happened here, so much as he was prepared for the possibility.

I hope Wert's theory, about the dual realities and the Judging Eye collapsing them, is something at least close to the truth. Otherwise, there's a whole lot of wasted buildup.

The description of Ark totally made it feel like an evil Culture Mind.

About the baby- obviously there's a strong idea that it's going to be some kind of Jesus figure- but the setting's already had its Jesus, so is the baby Inri Sejenus reborn, or something entirely different? Also, in what way might he be affected by the Qirri, because it seems like that was supposed to be significant? Are we going to get a Nonman Jesus?

[WalterX]

I kind of love the fact that the GOLDEN ROOM, literally the main place of evil in the books...is originally like a hallway junction.  It is turned on its side, and lit by the Inverse Fire...which is a monitoring device.  It's like the Center Of Darkness being in corridor 2b, because that's where the primitives who took over built their ridiculous throne.

[Happy Ent]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

1. Couple of other people mentioned this, but what was the point of the demon?

2. The description of Ark totally made it feel like an evil Culture Mind.

1. Partly it’s just an epic fantasy battle. Kellhus’s side shows up with the Daimos, easily defeating the first level of the Golgotterath game. The disappearance shows us how easily the Demon can slip back into the Outside. Ark is a Topos, so this is where you can jump between worlds. That is significant for understanding the mechanics of Ajokli’s appearance (who can appear in the Golden Room, and on the Plains of Mengedda, but not many other places in Eärwa.)

2. Exactly. Bakker’s world is the dystopian view of the Singularity, of transhumanism. Banks’ is the utopian view. We need both.

[Happy Ent]

2 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

Excellent point. One of the Mutilated specifically says Ajokli's siblings are hunting him and that Ajokli thinks he can hide at Golgotterath.

Question: Can we argue that Ajokli in general gets almost no souls to munch on in the Outside? 

If so, then here’s the deal he strikes with Kellhus: Ajokli gets to inhabit the World, languishing in the Golden Room and having sinful humans herded to him. He can start by feasting on the Great Ordeal, tens of thousands of souls steeped in Sin. Something must be eaten. In exchange, Kellhus gets to destroy Hell. Good deal for both.

This deal means that Kellhus needs to get to Golgotterath (which would be easy enough on his own – he could have done that twenty years ago), destroy the Consult (which is not easy but doable), and with sufficiently many, sufficiently tasty souls in tow. This is what happened. 

Had things worked out, Ajokli would have been content in his golden castle. Once the supply of Ordealmen ran out, God-Emperor Kellhus would use Golgotterath as a penal colony: Eärwan rapists and tax-evaders get sent to Golgotterath and eaten by Ajokli. Once the Sin is licked off, they slip into the Outside proper, which is where all the other dead souls also go. By this time, Kellhus has destroyed all the demons, and the Outside is the Nonman Utopia: Oblivion. Souls just float around until another child is born, at which point they get reincarnated. Everybody is happier than before.

I’d take that deal as Ajokli, and I’d take that deal as benevolent-Kellhus.

[Kalbear]

16 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

Had things worked out, Ajokli would have been content in his golden castle. Once the supply of Ordealmen ran out, God-Emperor Kellhus would use Golgotterath as a penal colony: Eärwan rapists and tax-evaders get sent to Golgotterath and eaten by Ajokli. Once the Sin is licked off, they slip into the Outside proper, which is where all the other dead souls also go. By this time, Kellhus has destroyed all the demons, and the Outside is the Nonman Utopia: Oblivion. Souls just float around until another child is born, at which point they get reincarnated. Everybody is happier than before.

Textually this isn't what the deal was. Ajokli wants to feast on the entire world, and use Golgotterath as its throne on earth. It wants to send the DunSult out to be his harbingers of terror and anguish, to make them go and kill and torture all sorts of people all over. Itdoesn't want people to be shipped to Golgotterath; he wants to basically make every soul a beacon to Ajokli and have Ajokli 'redeem' those souls. 

And Kellhus doesn't care, because he rules the pit and is no one is suffering at the hands of Ciphrang. Instead, they're all in the welcoming arms of Ajokli, which is apparently the only form of redemption that exists. 

The sin is never licked clean; the soul is marred by the damnation of a certain flavor and alignment, and that puts them in play for Ajokli. Other entities can jump in and he won't get them all, but he can get so very many more, and once they're there they're ruled by Kellhus/Ajokli. 

Everyone is a little bit happier because at least they aren't randomly suffering; they only suffer whatever Ajokli chooses, and in theory that's a better deal than random vagaries of Ciphrang. At least Kellhus governs it a bit.

16 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

I’d take that deal as Ajokli, and I’d take that deal as benevolent-Kellhus.

I think it's also illustrative of what Kellhus knows, and being a Dunyain he's still unable to go past what inputs he gets. He gets the gnosis and understands power of self, and then gets the Daimos and understand the power of the gods and the outside. He never grasps anything other than power over, so all his framing is based entirely on that. It isn't very benevolent, but it at least solves the issue of his own personal damnation, it solves the issue of the Consult destroying the world, and it makes things a smidgen better for the souls of Earwa. He simply doesn't see any other way because he cannot frame things like Koringhus can; he does not understand that he is in a fatalistic world, and he still believes that he can rewrite it.

Also, good to have you talking in the topic! Just need Sci to come back in. 

[jurble]

Wandered into listening to a version of Palästinalied on YouTube and realized:  with the birth of Mimara's child Golgotterath is the Holy Land.

 

Wtb someone familiar with medieval German to write a Golgötterathlied.

[unJon]

2 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

1. Partly it’s just an epic fantasy battle. Kellhus’s side shows up with the Daimos, easily defeating the first level of the Golgotterath game. The disappearance shows us how easily the Demon can slip back into the Outside. Ark is a Topos, so this is where you can jump between worlds. That is significant for understanding the mechanics of Ajokli’s appearance (who can appear in the Golden Room, and on the Plains of Mengedda, but not many other places in Eärwa.)

2. Exactly. Bakker’s world is the dystopian view of the Singularity, of transhumanism. Banks’ is the utopian view. We need both.

1) It's also a nice reflection on TTT where the demon has POV during the battle and Iyokus sends him to hunt Akka. In TUC, it gets inverted and the demon frees itself and hunts/kills Iyokus. 

[Werthead]

On 13/07/2017 at 8:10 PM, Faint said:

I am pretty fascinated with the story going forward as it applies to Achamian and Mimara, and even more so -- in a first for me -- to Esmenet.  I found her explicit survival the most shocking thing in the book.  I cannot even begin to divine her role in the series to come. 

Where does the story go from here? I suppose Achamian's credibility among those who know about him has experienced the greatest of surges but to what end?   There is so little left now. 

My guess is that Akka, Mimara and Esmi flee south, possibly to Ishterebinth but if not there, maybe Zeum. Zeum is the largest extant nation in Earwa which has been untroubled by any previous military shenanigans and my guess is that it will be the primary force fighting the Second Apocalypse. It is very large and we know from the 1E that the No-God isn't exactly in a hurry, so there may be some time for Zeum to prepare, especially if No-God 2.0 decides to head into the (presumably) chaos-gripped Three Seas and mop up there first. Bakker has also said that Zeum will play a major role and it didn't even appear in TGO and TUC, so either it's in the final two (?) books or doesn't play any role at all.

Kayutas may show up or not. If he's survived, he is presumably the next Aspect-Emperor (if anyone gives a shit) and that may be important in trying to rally the New Empire. Crabicus definitely will. I think there will also be a thread following Moenghus as leader of the Scylvendi. The only real purpose I can see in his arc is that it leads to the Heron Spear (the Scylvendi almost certainly stole it from the Sack of Cenei and, lacking a lot of the detailed history and legends of the 1E, have it knocking around somewhere as a trophy).

[unJon]

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

I hope Wert's theory, about the dual realities and the Judging Eye collapsing them, is something at least close to the truth. Otherwise, there's a whole lot of wasted buildup.

My working theory upthread also saves the wasted buildup. 

[jurble]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The only real purpose I can see in his arc is that it leads to the Heron Spear (the Scylvendi almost certainly stole it from the Sack of Cenei and, lacking a lot of the detailed history and legends of the 1E, have it knocking around somewhere as a trophy).

The Heron Spear probably ended up in Horiotha's barrow, which is near to Cnaiur's father's barrow since Horiotha is his ancestor and Cnaiur tells us way, way back that his ancestors have their barrows next to his father's.

Problem with that is the Dunyain can easily follow the same train of thought (and likely have already had it).   They've probably already secured the Heron Spear.

[Gaston de Foix]

2 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Question: Can we argue that Ajokli in general gets almost no souls to munch on in the Outside? 

If so, then here’s the deal he strikes with Kellhus: Ajokli gets to inhabit the World, languishing in the Golden Room and having sinful humans herded to him. He can start by feasting on the Great Ordeal, tens of thousands of souls steeped in Sin. Something must be eaten. In exchange, Kellhus gets to destroy Hell. Good deal for both.

This deal means that Kellhus needs to get to Golgotterath (which would be easy enough on his own – he could have done that twenty years ago), destroy the Consult (which is not easy but doable), and with sufficiently many, sufficiently tasty souls in tow. This is what happened. 

Had things worked out, Ajokli would have been content in his golden castle. Once the supply of Ordealmen ran out, God-Emperor Kellhus would use Golgotterath as a penal colony: Eärwan rapists and tax-evaders get sent to Golgotterath and eaten by Ajokli. Once the Sin is licked off, they slip into the Outside proper, which is where all the other dead souls also go. By this time, Kellhus has destroyed all the demons, and the Outside is the Nonman Utopia: Oblivion. Souls just float around until another child is born, at which point they get reincarnated. Everybody is happier than before.

I’d take that deal as Ajokli, and I’d take that deal as benevolent-Kellhus.

I think Ajokli gets some few souls courtesy of the Narindari (similar to the beetle sacrificed to him by Kelmomas).

 I agree with the first part of your deal: Ajokli gets to inhabit the World, but I don't think Kellhus is trying to destroy Hell.  I haven't seen any textual evidence to that effect.  There is very little evidence that Kellhus actually gets anything meaningful in return from Ajokli except the power to overcome the DunSult. 

[Gaston de Foix]

7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

My guess is that Akka, Mimara and Esmi flee south, possibly to Ishterebinth but if not there, maybe Zeum. Zeum is the largest extant nation in Earwa which has been untroubled by any previous military shenanigans and my guess is that it will be the primary force fighting the Second Apocalypse. It is very large and we know from the 1E that the No-God isn't exactly in a hurry, so there may be some time for Zeum to prepare, especially if No-God 2.0 decides to head into the (presumably) chaos-gripped Three Seas and mop up there first. Bakker has also said that Zeum will play a major role and it didn't even appear in TGO and TUC, so either it's in the final two (?) books or doesn't play any role at all.

Kayutas may show up or not. If he's survived, he is presumably the next Aspect-Emperor (if anyone gives a shit) and that may be important in trying to rally the New Empire. Crabicus definitely will. I think there will also be a thread following Moenghus as leader of the Scylvendi. The only real purpose I can see in his arc is that it leads to the Heron Spear (the Scylvendi almost certainly stole it from the Sack of Cenei and, lacking a lot of the detailed history and legends of the 1E, have it knocking around somewhere as a trophy).

Wouldn't the No-God also effect the people in Eanna? I had assumed the tribe would will play a big role in the Second Apocalypse. 

[jurble]

It presumably affected the Eannans in the first Apocalypse too, but there's nothing mentioned of any Xiuhanni entering Earwa to figure out what was going on.  The Jekk were Xiuhanni that immigrated to Earwa after the First Apocalypse, so the Eannans survived what must have been 20 confusing years.  The Jekki are also the source of chanv, which is presumably Qirri pulled out of Siol's ruins.... except Siol is way north of Jekkia on the map on the wiki.   Was that location confirmed by Bakker?

[Werthead]

7 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

It presumably affected the Eannans in the first Apocalypse too, but there's nothing mentioned of any Xiuhanni entering Earwa to figure out what was going on.  The Jekk were Xiuhanni that immigrated to Earwa after the First Apocalypse, so the Eannans survived what must have been 20 confusing years.  The Jekki are also the source of chanv, which is presumably Qirri pulled out of Siol's ruins.... except Siol is way north of Jekkia on the map on the wiki.   Was that location confirmed by Bakker?

Yes. It's confirmed again in TUC appendix.

[jurble]

Curunq is near enough to Jekhia to be the source, I guess?  Either that or Jekhia has trading relations with some Eannan nation that breeds Nonman slaves and then burns them for chanv.