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Three-eyed crow before Bloodraven


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8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

To be completely honest the biggest reason I don't think it's about Shaggydog is that I once followed another's advise and googled what a "shaggydog story" is... from the bottom of my heart I'm deeply sorry for any tears doing the same might cause anyone.

 

A Shaggydog story is a long one with a disappointing ending.  That is what I have accepted what Rickon will be.  I really want a badass tribal Stark as a throwback to 8,000 years ago, but Rickon seems to be set up to disappoint.  It's a shame.  

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On 7/7/2017 at 11:52 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

that could be the case if he hadn't specifically mentioned coming to Bran in a dream.  

Until the next trainee shows up, Yes. It makes perfect sense linguistically 

Evening shade trees are not mentioned (At least I don't remember them being) anywhere in the books outside of Qarth.  There is many a mention of weirwoods and how they are starting to return. Sam sees one at the wall. There is the brotherhood cave full of weirwood roots. there are weirwood saplings growing in the rainwood as Arianne and her crew head to storms end. The Black barked blue leaf trees symbolize death. The weirwoods symbolize life. 

How so? 

The Weirwood tree comes to Bran in his dreams.... we covered this already...

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It doesn't make sense linguistically... in no situation do you call someone "the last" when you are expecting a successor who hasn't ascended to the position yet.

It could mean "previous", though that would imply Bloodraven is no longer a Greenseer.

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I don't know what you mean by "the Weirwoods are returning", did they go somewhere?

and I don't know why you think Weirwoods represent life...

Nor does any of this explain why you would think the trees around the House of the Undying are dead.

So again, not sure what you are saying or where you are going with this...

 

 

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23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The Weirwood tree comes to Bran in his dreams.... we covered this already...

the crow came to him in a dream. He sees the tree, and he feels a presence, but it is the crow that comes to him.

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It doesn't make sense linguistically... in no situation do you call someone "the last" when you are expecting a successor who hasn't ascended to the position yet.

It does, even while waiting for a successor. As of the last book, bran is in training so bloodraven/the three eyed crow is still the last greenseer. 

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It could mean "previous", though that would imply Bloodraven is no longer a Greenseer

Or implying that he does not have much time left 

On 7/11/2017 at 10:28 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't know what you mean by "the Weirwoods are returning", did they go somewhere?

How many trees are standing in high heartt? There is nary a mention of weirwood saplings growing and now after dragons return, we see saplings growing south of the wall. 

On 7/11/2017 at 10:28 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

and I don't know why you think Weirwoods represent life...

In relation to the black bark trees at the house of the dead warlocks. The weirwoods connect a greenseer to the rest of the continent, to other people, to animals and plants. To the streams, brooks and lakes of the world. They are alive and interconnected. 

On 7/11/2017 at 10:28 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Nor does any of this explain why you would think the trees around the House of the Undying are dead.

I never said they were dead. They represent death. People who consume their byproduct tend to be evil and desire death and destruction. 

On 7/11/2017 at 10:28 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So again, not sure what you are saying or where you are going with this...

Just following tangents 
 

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I suppose some greenseers appears from time to time in the Neck. Else how would Jojen know what it is? Greenseers are still more likely to be found on the Isle of Faces. Who are the Green Men? And Bloodraven is not probably unique. But did some in-story characters joined the trees in the past? Maybe, but we have no clue of that.

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

the crow came to him in a dream. He sees the tree, and he feels a presence, but it is the crow that comes to him.

It does, even while waiting for a successor. As of the last book, bran is in training so bloodraven/the three eyed crow is still the last greenseer. 

Or implying that he does not have much time left 

How many trees are standing in high heartt? There is nary a mention of weirwood saplings growing and now after dragons return, we see saplings growing south of the wall. 

In relation to the black bark trees at the house of the dead warlocks. The weirwoods connect a greenseer to the rest of the continent, to other people, to animals and plants. To the streams, brooks and lakes of the world. They are alive and interconnected. 

I never said they were dead. They represent death. People who consume their byproduct tend to be evil and desire death and destruction. 

Just following tangents 
 

Ok I'm not arguing about the "last" thing anymore since we seem to have fundamentally different definitions of the word, look it up, it's pretty straight forward and what you are saying doesn't make sense. I do not think this word means what you think it means...

saying Queen Elizabeth is the "last" queen of England, while she is on the throne but her time is nearing an end, is ridiculous and just flat out incorrect. The same would be true of Blood Raven. 

...

The crow came to him in a dream and the weirwood face came to him in a dream. Both are true.

In fact, sometimes in the same dreams...

the point is Bloodraven uses a lot of verbs to describe this interaction and all are passive (none imply speech or direct interaction).

And this immediately follows his failure to understand Bran's question. He responds with a question... then proceeds to list how he came to Bran in dreams. 

None of this makes sense as a response to being asked if he's the three eyed crow!

Why would he need to explain he was in Bran's dream when he's being asked if he is the creature from Bran's dream? 

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

always "watched", "saw", "was part of" and never "spoke to you" or "pecked your face". 

Wrong number of eyes, of course.

And more importantly, it's nonsensical to answer a simple yes/no question about his identity with this rambling list, when a simple "yes I'm the creature from your nightmares" would imply most of that. 

This isn't even getting into the issue of how Bloodraven is talking about first steps, first words, and first dreams. Presumably Bran had steps, words, and dreams before he was thrown out of the old tower.

The only reason I can think of is misdirection on the part of the author.

Blood Raven appearing as the Weirwood fits perfectly however... brooding over its creepy ever-still icy pool even though the wind is blowing and Winterfell is built on hot springs.

Im Bran's Falling Dream:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood broodedover its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

...

Cat's 1st chapter:

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. "The heart tree," Ned called it. The weirwood's bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea. 
In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face.
 
So here in Cat's very first chapter we also get your explanation for the weirwood stumps in the south... this is no secret, only he First Men kept to the Old Gods. The Andals cut down the trees in the south.
 
As far as saplings go, you could blame dragons, or winter, or widespread bloodshead, or maybe they just grow like normal trees and why would we think else wise?
 
 
Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.
 
I think you need to reevaluate your association of Weirwoods with life... in fact I would argue they are heavily associated with death. Maybe even to the point of requiring blood sacrifice to grow. And they certainly provide a vessel (or prison) for the "souls" of the dead, aka ancestors going into the trees... that or they consume the souls/memories of the dead. It isn't totally clear, but the imagery and history we have been given are both pretty grisly and gruesome.
 
The trees around the House of the Undying are described far less, so it's hard to know. But I'm not sure I see much of a difference between them and weirwoods besides the color change and lack of carved into them.
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8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ok I'm not arguing about the "last" thing anymore since we seem to have fundamentally different definitions of the word, look it up, it's pretty straight forward and what you are saying doesn't make sense. I do not think this word means what you think it means...

saying Queen Elizabeth is the "last" queen of England, while she is on the throne but her time is nearing an end, is ridiculous and just flat out incorrect. The same would be true of Blood Raven. 

And even after you figured out a way to make it work beyond your rigid thinking on it. Oh well.

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The crow came to him in a dream and the weirwood face came to him in a dream. Both are true.

No, Only the crow came to him in the dream. He saw the weirwood, he felt a presence, but the tree did not speak to him, try to teach him, try to open his third eye or show him the entire world. That was the crow. The crow that Jojen and meera were sent 

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In fact, sometimes in the same dreams...

Yes, but only one was speaking to bran. That is the important part

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

the point is Bloodraven uses a lot of verbs to describe this interaction and all are passive (none imply speech or direct interaction).

Well, when speaking to bran in person, he hadn't moved in a very long time. He does do everything via weirnet and greensight, so even though he can see and speak far away, he is not literally speaking or literally flying. He is stuck, watching via tree and greensight.

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And this immediately follows his failure to understand Bran's question. He responds with a question... then proceeds to list how he came to Bran in dreams. 

LOL you expect a 125 year old guy who can control flocks of birds and is sustained by a networked root ball to be concise and to the point. I do see how this could lead you down the road to your supposition. 

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

None of this makes sense as a response to being asked if he's the three eyed crow!

It does if you remember to take into account my description of him 

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Why would he need to explain he was in Bran's dream when he's being asked if he is the creature from Bran's dream? 

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

always "watched", "saw", "was part of" and never "spoke to you" or "pecked your face". 

What would you rather read, the above quote, or "Yeah, It was me, I Pecked at your forehead, scared the dream crap out of you. Me, the tree root guy"

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wrong number of eyes, of course.

Totes. I mean, Bloodraven only has one, so where did those extra thousand go? If only it was somehow metaphorical, a representation of something else.....:dunno:  

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And more importantly, it's nonsensical to answer a simple yes/no question about his identity with this rambling list, when a simple "yes I'm the creature from your nightmares" would imply most of that. 

Dude is well over a century old and he spend most of his day looking out over the whole planet, looking backward in time and watching important parts of his life, from bastard, to warrior, to legit targ, to hand of the king, to reviled traitor and guest right violator, to a sworn brother of the e watch, to the lord commander of the watch, to being a greenseer living older than any human should in a root ball in the depths of a magic cave tended by not-elves. Not to mention fighting and killing numerous members of his family all the while wanting to have sex with his sister. Give him a break on the less than concise stuff. 

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This isn't even getting into the issue of how Bloodraven is talking about first steps, first words, and first dreams. Presumably Bran had steps, words, and dreams before he was thrown out of the old tower.

The only reason I can think of is misdirection on the part of the author.

GRRM is a big fan of the unreliable narrator.  

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Blood Raven appearing as the Weirwood fits perfectly however... brooding over its creepy ever-still icy pool even though the wind is blowing and Winterfell is built on hot springs.

Im Bran's Falling Dream:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood broodedover its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

It fits very well, since he is literally living in a weirwood root ball, but it does not preclude him from being the three eyed crow. 

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cat's 1st chapter:At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. "The heart tree," Ned called it. The weirwood's bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea. 

In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face.
So here in Cat's very first chapter we also get your explanation for the weirwood stumps in the south... this is no secret, only he First Men kept to the Old Gods. The Andals cut down the trees in the south.
As far as saplings go, you could blame dragons, or winter, or widespread bloodshead, or maybe they just grow like normal trees and why would we think else wise?

Well, since modern castles like the red keep do not have them, and there is no  mention of weirwood saplings in the first novel, one beyond the wall in the second novel, one south of the wall in the third novel and now saplings in the rainwood in winds, it looks to me like they are growing again all over westeros. As Qaith told Dany, Magic is returning to the world. The weirwoods are magical, so they are returning. 

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.
 
I think you need to reevaluate your association of Weirwoods with life... in fact I would argue they are heavily associated with death. Maybe even to the point of requiring blood sacrifice to grow. And they certainly provide a vessel (or prison) for the "souls" of the dead, aka ancestors going into the trees... that or they consume the souls/memories of the dead. It isn't totally clear, but the imagery and history we have been given are both pretty grisly and gruesome.

 True, but they are a communication conduit, way back machine, life sustainer and overall magical reservoir to be used to fight the ice demons bent on destroying all life and warmth. So I think association is apt

8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The trees around the House of the Undying are described far less, so it's hard to know. But I'm not sure I see much of a difference between them and weirwoods besides the color change and lack of carved into them.

All the people what use the shade more than once are all incredibly evil. 

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10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And even after you figured out a way to make it work beyond your rigid thinking on it. Oh well.

No, Only the crow came to him in the dream. He saw the weirwood, he felt a presence, but the tree did not speak to him, try to teach him, try to open his third eye or show him the entire world. That was the crow. The crow that Jojen and meera were sent 

Yes, but only one was speaking to bran. That is the important part

Meera never sees the crow, to my knowledge. And the Weirwood dreams Bran mentions, repeatedly, are frequent and scary.

It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

So clearly the tree did try to reach him and speak to him...

And another discrepancy exists between the way Blood Raven's voice is described and that of the three eyed crow.

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

Blood Raven even explains to Bran how he can't speak to those he sees through the Weirwood's eyes.

This is why, in conjunction with his list of passive verbs I mentioned above, I'm not sure Blood Raven is even capable of speaking through dreams like the three eyed crow.

However, the presence of the Weirwood in Bran's dreams fits with the description we now get of what Blood Raven shows Bran.

 

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Well, when speaking to bran in person, he hadn't moved in a very long time. He does do everything via weirnet and greensight, so even though he can see and speak far away, he is not literally speaking or literally flying. He is stuck, watching via tree and greensight.

Can he speak far away? Is there any other example of this?

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LOL you expect a 125 year old guy who can control flocks of birds and is sustained by a networked root ball to be concise and to the point. I do see how this could lead you down the road to your supposition. 

I don't need him to be concise or to the point, but I would expect the wise old sorcerer to have a basic understanding of what a child (he's supposedly teaching) is asking him.

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It does if you remember to take into account my description of him 

What would you rather read, the above quote, or "Yeah, It was me, I Pecked at your forehead, scared the dream crap out of you. Me, the tree root guy"

The above quote clearly... especially since my point is that its a clue to the fact BR isn't the 3ec.

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Totes. I mean, Bloodraven only has one, so where did those extra thousand go? If only it was somehow metaphorical, a representation of something else.....:dunno:  

Hey I love metaphors... but this one has problems, and I didn't just make them up, this is a question literally asked by Bran. Not just one time either.

Also, when Jon sees Bran in a dream he has three eyes...

The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

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Dude is well over a century old and he spend most of his day looking out over the whole planet, looking backward in time and watching important parts of his life, from bastard, to warrior, to legit targ, to hand of the king, to reviled traitor and guest right violator, to a sworn brother of the e watch, to the lord commander of the watch, to being a greenseer living older than any human should in a root ball in the depths of a magic cave tended by not-elves. Not to mention fighting and killing numerous members of his family all the while wanting to have sex with his sister. Give him a break on the less than concise stuff. 

I don't really follow what this has to do with understanding a pretty straight forward question... but I do think it's relevant that he broke his vow to the nights watch and just about every rule respected by the Old Gods. 

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GRRM is a big fan of the unreliable narrator.  

Exactly.

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It fits very well, since he is literally living in a weirwood root ball, but it does not preclude him from being the three eyed crow. 

However I don't know of any reason BR would appear as two different distinct images to Bran in the same dream at the same time. Nor do I know of any other examples of that happening in the series.

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Well, since modern castles like the red keep do not have them, and there is no  mention of weirwood saplings in the first novel, one beyond the wall in the second novel, one south of the wall in the third novel and now saplings in the rainwood in winds, it looks to me like they are growing again all over westeros. As Qaith told Dany, Magic is returning to the world. The weirwoods are magical, so they are returning. 

I'm not opposed to the idea that new weirwood saplings growing is a change from what Westeros is used to, but I'm not sure about what conclusion to draw. Winter is coming

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 True, but they are a communication conduit, way back machine, life sustainer and overall magical reservoir to be used to fight the ice demons bent on destroying all life and warmth. So I think association is apt

All the people what use the shade more than once are all incredibly evil. 

I think you're making huge assumptions about the purpose of the trees and that they are necessarily opposed to the Others. I'm not sure why you think this?

The wights themselves appear to be "powered" by their bones... they only stop moving when the bones are broken.

Of course bones are found in abundance in BR's lair (the bones of a thousand dreamers from Brans falling vision of the Heart of Winter I suspect) and frequently associated with the white weirwood trees.

Of course evil tends to be a subjective label, but Eureon seems pretty evil, I'll give you that. But then again I'd lump the Undying and Blood Raven into the same boat, so I can't really argue with you there.

I just think that the Weirwood paste and shade of the evening are equivalent.

I also entertain the idea that neither is inherently evil, just addictive and granting easily abused power/knowledge.

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21 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ok I'm not arguing about the "last" thing anymore since we seem to have fundamentally different definitions of the word, look it up, it's pretty straight forward and what you are saying doesn't make sense. I do not think this word means what you think it means...

saying Queen Elizabeth is the "last" queen of England, while she is on the throne but her time is nearing an end, is ridiculous and just flat out incorrect. The same would be true of Blood Raven. 

This is so stupid.  All sobriquets are "wrong".  Jaime is "the Kingslayer" but he isn't the only person to ever kill a king and he won't be the last.  Mag is "the Mighty" but he isn't the only mighty giant.

Bloodraven was the "Last Greenseer" because when he was given the nickname, he was the last greenseer.  That they expected another one is almost immaterial, the same as Selwyn Tarth being "the Evenstar" doesn't mean that another Lord Tarth won't be the Evenstar after him.

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

This is so stupid.  All sobriquets are "wrong".  Jaime is "the Kingslayer" but he isn't the only person to ever kill a king and he won't be the last.  Mag is "the Mighty" but he isn't the only mighty giant.

Bloodraven was the "Last Greenseer" because when he was given the nickname, he was the last greenseer.  That they expected another one is almost immaterial, the same as Selwyn Tarth being "the Evenstar" doesn't mean that another Lord Tarth won't be the Evenstar after him.

This is not logical...

of course being "the kingslayer" doesn't mean nobody else has ever killed a king! How did you come up with that?

but being "the kingslayer" probably means you killed a king right?

being "the last" has a meaning, you ought not just pretend it's a meaningless name...

if he was just "the greenseer" what you say would make sense, however words matter, and while being "the last" might be interpreted as either "the final" or "the previous" both have issues in this case.

"the previous" implies there is a new one, and that one no longer carries the title.

As in: King George was the last monarch of England (before Elizabeth, the current Queen).

But you can't say "Elizabeth is the last monarch of England." It doesn't make sense. Unless you mean there will not be any more...

"the final" implies that none will follow.

As in: Pu Yi was the last Emperor of China, there have been none since.

If Bran is expected to succeed Blood Raven as Greenseer then neither definition makes sense.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but the title "the last greenseer" is meaningful, repeatedly used referring to Blood Raven by those speaking to Bran, and probably should raise red flags.

Aurthur Dayne was the last sword of the morning... Used in this case to mean "the previous", this doesn't mean there will never be another sword of the morning, but it does mean he is not currently sword of the morning.

Rhaegar was "the last dragon". This isn't the same as calling him "the dragon" (Aegon the Conquerer). However, regardless of what  Jorah meant by it (likely he literally intended "the final") it still makes sense as "the previous". But if Rhaegar was still alive it would make sense either way.

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6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not sure Blood Raven is even capable of speaking through dreams like the three eyed crow.

Firstly, we should draw a distinction between 'coming' to someone and 'speaking' to someone in a dream.  Bloodraven only confirmed he contacted Bran in dreams, but not that this 'contact' proceeded verbally necessarily. For example, the brooding, knowing weirwood made eye contact with Bran in the 'coma dream' without saying anything, unlike the crow. That said, however, the other example we have of a greenseer besides Bloodraven, namely Bran, is able to speak telepathically to Jon in the 'three-eyed weirwood sapling' dream, despite finding it difficult on another occasion to make himself understood to his father.  Based on the 'silent shout' phenomenon, it appears a greenseer might have different modes of communication at his disposal, in which he could still appear as a tree to the recipient of the message without being straightjacketed by the normal linguistic limitations of the tree (is this what is meant by 'going beyond the trees'?).  Notice that in the original text version the three-eyed crow's communications to Bran in the 'coma dream' are italicized without quote marks, which would seem to indicate this 'silent shout' telepathic communication, which is characterized by an internal rather than external voice (check on googlebooks rather than the search engine which erases italics).  In contrast, when Bran speaks to Theon in the 'heart-tree communion' scene, Bran's voice as perceived by Theon is inserted in quotation marks without being italicized, implying that the voice is audible and registered as coming from a source external to Theon's mind (Theon's internal thoughts to himself in the same scene are italicized without quotes).

 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Can he speak far away? Is there any other example of this?

I don't understand how Bloodraven is able to contact Bran at Winterfell anyway, given the magical ward represented by the Wall which is supposed to block telepathic communications.  Perhaps it only blocks the wolves and/or wargs from sensing one another, but somehow the weirwoods since they are connected with each other underground are not impeded, perhaps bypassing the Wall's interference?  @40 Thousand Skeletons, @Dorian Martell's son @Macgregor of the North -- any ideas on this question?  It seems important, especially since I believe the author has mentioned he's highlighted the wolves/brothers not being able to sense each other when they're located on opposite sides of the Wall for a specific reason (which he of course coyly left unspecified in the interview)!

 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

this is a question literally asked by Bran. Not just one time either.

Did you notice that Bran also asked the three-eyed crow in the dream if he was really a crow, which the 'crow' failed to confirm?  Perhaps the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven, after all; they're certainly both very evasive when asked a straightforward question (or maybe that's just GRRM messing with us, as per usual ;))!  Still, I can't reconcile the cheeky voice of the crow with Bloodraven's tone.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

The crow landed on his hand and began to eat.

"Are you really a crow?" Bran asked.

Are you really falling? the crow asked back.

 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

However I don't know of any reason BR would appear as two different distinct images to Bran in the same dream at the same time

Bloodraven's a Blackwood; and like the Raventree, he's part corvid, part tree.  

 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Rhaegar was "the last dragon". This isn't the same as calling him "the dragon"

Your instinct gravitating towards citing the example of 'the last dragon' might be quite revealing, since we're probably supposed to take them as a pair -- 'the last dragon' vs. 'the last greenseer' as the opposed representatives of 'teams' fire and ice respectively.  'The last' has the connotation of 'the last of the line', implying if that person dies without an heir the line will be in danger of going extinct.  Perhaps Bran has been recruited to the cave in order to provide Bloodraven with an heir, just as Dany has taken up Rhaegar's mantle.  

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

After the bone-grinding cold of the lands beyond the Wall, the caves were blessedly warm, and when the chill crept out of the rock the singers would light fires to drive it off again. Down here there was no wind, no snow, no ice, no dead things reaching out to grab you, only dreams and rushlight and the kisses of the ravens. And the whisperer in darkness.

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."

One last question:  If Bloodraven is indeed the three-eyed crow, how come Bran is still having dreams of a three-eyed crow while he's in the cave?  Now that Bran is safely ensconced in the cave, and Bloodraven can talk to Bran in person any time he chooses, why should there still be a need to 'come to him in dreams'?

 

16 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Well, since modern castles like the red keep do not have them, and there is no  mention of weirwood saplings in the first novel, one beyond the wall in the second novel, one south of the wall in the third novel and now saplings in the rainwood in winds, it looks to me like they are growing again all over westeros. As Qaith told Dany, Magic is returning to the world. The weirwoods are magical, so they are returning. 

Nice.  What do you think is the relationship of the trees to the dragons which you mentioned?  Perhaps as the natural enemy of the trees, the renewed dragon presence acts like an antigen stimulating the tree immune system, as it were, to produce more weirwoods (and more Others) to counteract them, akin to mounting an immune response, in the spirit of @Voice's miasma theory ('every song needs its balance').  The same dragons threatening to burn them to the ground in future, also act as magical fertilizer for the trees, stimulating their proliferation -- Who said 'dragons plant no trees'...!   ( @hiemal...you might enjoy this thought, given you're so captivated with 'pounding the planet'...:P)

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3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Rhaegar was "the last dragon". This isn't the same as calling him "the dragon" (Aegon the Conquerer). However, regardless of what  Jorah meant by it (likely he literally intended "the final") it still makes sense as "the previous". But if Rhaegar was still alive it would make sense either way.

But Rhaegar wasn't the last dragon, so this kind of disproves your whole point.  He is neither the final dragon (since Viserys and Dany still live) nor is he the "previous" dragon, since he dies well before his kids or Aerys or Rhaelle.

I am sure Bloodraven was named "the Last Greenseer" because when he was given that name, he was the last.  And it stuck, even though a new one came along.  There was no guarantee he would; apparently he's reached out to tons of potential greenseers, all of whom have died before learning to open their third eye.

For a real world parallel, take the title "Last of the Romans".  People from Cassius Longinus (who died in 42 BC) all the way through the last de jure Byzantine Emperor 1548 years later, have been given that title, despite it not being literally true.  Longinus lived when the Republic still technically existed!  Obviously there were other Romans; even considering the whole anti-tyranny angle, Brutus himself was still alive.

Sometimes, you have to just roll wiht the fact that sobriquets aren't always meant to be taken literally.  Bloodraven might have been the only remaining Greenseer after thousands of years in which there were always more than one.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

of course being "the kingslayer" doesn't mean nobody else has ever killed a king! How did you come up with that?

but being "the kingslayer" probably means you killed a king right?

If you want to take it literally (as you do want to, it seems) then no.  If you are "a kingslayer" then other people can, have, or will kill other kings.  If you are "the Kingslayer" then the article involved tells us that you are the single person who has done this.

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10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Firstly, we should draw a distinction between 'coming' to someone and 'speaking' to someone in a dream.  Bloodraven only confirmed he contacted Bran in dreams, but not that this 'contact' proceeded verbally necessarily. For example, the brooding, knowing weirwood made eye contact with Bran in the 'coma dream' without saying anything, unlike the crow. That said, however, the other example we have of a greenseer besides Bloodraven, namely Bran, is able to speak telepathically to Jon in the 'three-eyed weirwood sapling' dream, despite finding it difficult on another occasion to make himself understood to his father.  Based on the 'silent shout' phenomenon, it appears a greenseer might have different modes of communication at his disposal, in which he could still appear as a tree to the recipient of the message without being straightjacketed by the normal linguistic limitations of the tree (is this what is meant by 'going beyond the trees'?).  Notice that in the original text version the three-eyed crow's communications to Bran in the 'coma dream' are italicized without quote marks, which would seem to indicate this 'silent shout' telepathic communication, which is characterized by an internal rather than external voice (check on googlebooks rather than the search engine which erases italics).  In contrast, when Bran speaks to Theon in the 'heart-tree communion' scene, Bran's voice as perceived by Theon is inserted in quotation marks without being italicized, implying that the voice is audible and registered as coming from a source external to Theon's mind (Theon's internal thoughts to himself in the same scene are italicized without quotes).

:D

 

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't understand how Bloodraven is able to contact Bran at Winterfell anyway, given the magical ward represented by the Wall which is supposed to block telepathic communications.  Perhaps it only blocks the wolves and/or wargs from sensing one another, but somehow the weirwoods since they are connected with each other underground are not impeded, perhaps bypassing the Wall's interference?  @40 Thousand Skeletons, @Dorian Martell's son @Macgregor of the North -- any ideas on this question?  It seems important, especially since I believe the author has mentioned he's highlighted the wolves/brothers not being able to sense each other when they're located on opposite sides of the Wall for a specific reason (which he of course coyly left unspecified in the interview)!

I'm of the opinion that the Night Gate, a Weirwood face portal under the Wall at the Nightfort shaped like a mouth, shows the Weirwoods are able to get beneath the wall.

 

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Did you notice that Bran also asked the three-eyed crow in the dream if he was really a crow, which the 'crow' failed to confirm?  Perhaps the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven, after all; they're certainly both very evasive when asked a straightforward question (or maybe that's just GRRM messing with us, as per usual ;))!  Still, I can't reconcile the cheeky voice of the crow with Bloodraven's tone.

I do think the three eyed crow is someone, be it Bran himself, or Howland Reed or otherwhos.

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Bloodraven's a Blackwood; and like the Raventree, he's part corvid, part tree.  

True that

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Your instinct gravitating towards citing the example of 'the last dragon' might be quite revealing, since we're probably supposed to take them as a pair -- 'the last dragon' vs. 'the last greenseer' as the opposed representatives of 'teams' fire and ice respectively.  'The last' has the connotation of 'the last of the line', implying if that person dies without an heir the line will be in danger of going extinct.  Perhaps Bran has been recruited to the cave in order to provide Bloodraven with an heir, just as Dany is Rhaegar's heir.  

I like the parallel, although I would suggest that while Fire burns (and Dany dreams of herself in Rhaegar's armor), Ice preserves (and perhaps, like the Undying seemed to be trying to eat Dany, Blood Raven is trying to consume Bran in order to preserve himself).

 

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

One last question:  If Bloodraven is indeed the three-eyed crow, how come Bran is still having dreams of a three-eyed crow while he's in the cave?  Now that Bran is safely ensconced in the cave, and Bloodraven can talk to Bran in person any time he chooses, why should there still be a need to 'come to him in dreams'?

and why would Blood Raven use the passed tense when talking about it? Because Bran isn't having Tree dreams any more.

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2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't understand how Bloodraven is able to contact Bran at Winterfell anyway, given the magical ward represented by the Wall which is supposed to block telepathic communications.  Perhaps it only blocks the wolves and/or wargs from sensing one another, but somehow the weirwoods since they are connected with each other underground are not impeded, perhaps bypassing the Wall's interference?  @40 Thousand Skeletons, @Dorian Martell's son @Macgregor of the North -- any ideas on this question?  It seems important, especially since I believe the author has mentioned he's highlighted the wolves/brothers not being able to sense each other when they're located on opposite sides of the Wall for a specific reason (which he of course coyly left unspecified in the interview)!

While it is possible that the weirwoods are connected underground, I find it hard to believe that could be literally physically true, except for when they are in close proximity like the weirwood circles north of the Wall. In fact, I think the reason we see weirwood circles is because those are physically connected, as in literally a bunch of tree-people sharing one big blood supply with all their hearts probably beating in sync and their minds connected on an ultra-powerful level. This is what existed at High Heart and probably still exists at the HOTU.

I think that it is more likely they use the moon as a satellite to stay connected, which would provide an easy method of bypassing the Wall. And therefore, I think the purpose of weirwood leaves is to receive moonlight (for telepathic communication), not sunlight, because we all know that tree-people don't utilize photosynthesis to survive. ;) 

I am 99% sure that Bloodraven personally (possibly the entire weirnet, but at least BR) skinchanged the boar that killed Robert, and this would also involve bypassing the Wall somehow.

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8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't understand how Bloodraven is able to contact Bran at Winterfell anyway, given the magical ward represented by the Wall which is supposed to block telepathic communications.  Perhaps it only blocks the wolves and/or wargs from sensing one another, but somehow the weirwoods since they are connected with each other underground are not impeded, perhaps bypassing the Wall's interference?  @40 Thousand Skeletons, @Dorian Martell's son @Macgregor of the North -- any ideas on this question?  It seems important, especially since I believe the author has mentioned he's highlighted the wolves/brothers not being able to sense each other when they're located on opposite sides of the Wall for a specific reason (which he of course coyly left unspecified in the interview)!

The simplest view is that weirnet works like a hardline like an ethernet/cat5 connection and general greensight and skinchanging are lie wifi/cellular. We see the brother hood cave in the riverlands that even there are no weirwoods left in the whole territory, the cave is filled with weirwood roots that are not rotting or decaying.  
This is a highly simplified modern parallel an I don't always agree with it, but it does work.
My personal idea is that the legend of the wall building is true, and the wall was warded by the CTOF magic, mush like Storms End and that is why the whitewalkers/wights appear to have trouble with the wall and the children move past it with no issue and so does their magic. There also could be a user level issue, where someone very powerful, like Bloodraven or Bran can cross the wall with magic, but someone like Jon cannot.  

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Did you notice that Bran also asked the three-eyed crow in the dream if he was really a crow, which the 'crow' failed to confirm?  Perhaps the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven, after all; they're certainly both very evasive when asked a straightforward question (or maybe that's just GRRM messing with us, as per usual ;))!  Still, I can't reconcile the cheeky voice of the crow with Bloodraven's tone.

This is a supreme catch. The crow does not in fact say it is a crow. nice

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Nice.  What do you think is the relationship of the trees to the dragons which you mentioned?  Perhaps as the natural enemy of the trees, the renewed dragon presence acts like an antigen stimulating the tree immune system, as it were, to produce more weirwoods (and more Others) to counteract them, akin to mounting an immune response, in the spirit of @Voice's miasma theory ('every song needs its balance').  The same dragons threatening to burn them to the ground in future, also act as magical fertilizer for the trees, stimulating their proliferation -- Who said 'dragons plant no trees'...!   ( @hiemal...you might enjoy this thought, given you're so captivated with 'pounding the planet'...:P)

while I do not see the relationship quite as you do :D I think the connection is that they are all magical.  As magic waned in the world, weirwoods were cut down, Valyria fell, direwolves and western lions are extinct below the wall and eventually dragons died.  Spells became almost ineffective and even chemicals like wildfire did not work as well as it used to. So now, as the white walkers stir, dragons have returned, magic is effective again as witnessed by Qaith and Dany and the pyromancers of kings landing and we are seeing weirwood saplings in the south of westeros again 

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Seems that the CotF were previous Greenseers.  In terms of their lifespans,  they might go through one in the time span of 10-20 generations of Humans.  So if they are dying out as a race and their remaining #s aren't producing successor Greenseers, then looking to humans with the gift seems only logical, if not desparate.

While yes it's debateable depending on how you interpret certain passages... but what do we know?  Children are dying out or presenting that notion to humans.  Humans can become Greenseers.  

If BR isn't visiting Bran as 3EC, who specifically is, or is that entity supposed to be a surprise reveal for those of us who interpret things differently?  While I can see being a Greenseer as being a duty to CotF with the gift, surely it must be a hard sell to a young child who in the height of his youth has his physical ability stolen from him.  I don't have a problem with BR being referred to as the Last Greenseer.  Until Bran fulfills BR's shoes he technically is.  It also may simply be a literary device used to help the reader understand that the religion of the Old Gods as a whole is on the decline, and thusly, the devices that are apart of that religion.  If the religion doesn't get a revitalization of sorts, it may pass out of use entirely, and we don't know how that might impact the world.  Contrast the Old Gods with say R'hllorism at this point in the story... Lord of Light is thriving... 

Not sure if we'll see any manifestation of the Seven's magic if any, but I try to see the whole story with these sub-plots and contexts.

It feels like we're a little far along for this sort of long con that would be playing out if BR is not the 3EC.  I also wonder, does that imply that BR can exercise so much control of their 'familiar's' dreams that they're in affect watching the movie he's playing for them, or is it perhaps that he can influence them but can't  control them entirely, which would then make it possible that Bran is interpreting what his dreams are depicting as being what his mind imagined?

What I mean is, is it possible that the way Bran's brain interpreted the vision is the cause of the apparent confusion BR has when asked by Bran if he is the 3EC?

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On 7/13/2017 at 6:15 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I like the parallel, although I would suggest that while Fire burns (and Dany dreams of herself in Rhaegar's armor), Ice preserves (and perhaps, like the Undying seemed to be trying to eat Dany, Blood Raven is trying to consume Bran in order to preserve himself).

When a dragon (or someone with the 'blood of the dragon') dies, it's referred to as his 'fire going out' (recall Sam's eulogy for Aemon Targaryen, concluding with 'now his fire has gone out...now his watch is ended').  Similarly, in Varamyr's Prologue, which arguably more than any other passage provides us information regarding 'the last greenseer's' potential fate, Varamyr refers to his fire almost going out:

Quote

Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. He died his first death when he was only six, as his father's axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle's eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he'd gone mad. Even the memory was enough to make him shudder.

That was when he noticed that his fire had gone out.

Only a grey-and-black tangle of charred wood remained, with a few embers glowing in the ashes. There's still smoke, it just needs wood. Gritting his teeth against the pain, Varamyr crept to the pile of broken branches Thistle had gathered before she went off hunting, and tossed a few sticks onto the ashes. "Catch," he croaked. "Burn." He blew upon the embers and said a wordless prayer to the nameless gods of wood and hill and field.

The gods gave no answer. After a while, the smoke ceased to rise as well. Already the little hut was growing colder. Varamyr had no flint, no tinder, no dry kindling. He would never get the fire burning again, not by himself. "Thistle," he called out, his voice hoarse and edged with pain. "Thistle!"

Her chin was pointed and her nose flat, and she had a mole on one cheek with four dark hairs growing from it. An ugly face, and hard, yet he would have given much to glimpse it in the door of the hut. I should have taken her before she left. How long had she been gone? Two days? Three? Varamyr was uncertain. It was dark inside the hut, and he had been drifting in and out of sleep, never quite sure if it was day or night outside. "Wait," she'd said. "I will be back with food." So like a fool he'd waited, dreaming of Haggon and Bump and all the wrongs he had done in his long life, but days and nights had passed and Thistle had not returned. She won't be coming back. Varamyr wondered if he had given himself away. Could she tell what he was thinking just from looking at him, or had he muttered in his fever dream?

According to a literal interpretation, he realizes that he will not be able to rekindle his fire alone without Thistle's help.   Figurative translation:  he will suffer the true death, unless he can snatch Thistle's fresh, young body and transfer what remains of his fire into her body.  In the process of his attempted self-preservation -- which is configured as a rape ('he forced himself inside her') -- his fire ignites and consumes her.  Applied to Bloodraven and Bran, Bloodraven is 'the last coal' and Bran is the kissed-by-fire wooden boy the sorcerer needs to sustain his next life-- so we can do the math...  

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The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire... (ADWD - Bran III)

To reiterate, I don't think he has three eyes; he has one blood-red eye like Euron -- and it's malignant.

The HOTU is foreshadowing of a greenseer escaping the clutches of the weirnet, with the invaluable help of the greenseer's sidekick.  Drogon is the one who rescues Dany from being eaten alive, alerting her to the danger and guiding her to taking the right door, in order to exit the trap safely.  In Bran's case, the parallel saviour figure to Drogon is Hodor, both being giants, mounts, spirit vessels, and doorkeepers to the underworld.  Symbolically, Drogon perches on the mantle of the weirwood-and-ebony door like Edgar Allan Poe's enigmatic raven in the poem of the same name 'The Raven,' who like Hodor, as @Unchained has noted, famously utters only one word, 'Nevermore' (it even rhymes with...

Spoiler

'hold the door'!)  

  

21 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

While it is possible that the weirwoods are connected underground, I find it hard to believe that could be literally physically true, except for when they are in close proximity like the weirwood circles north of the Wall. In fact, I think the reason we see weirwood circles is because those are physically connected, as in literally a bunch of tree-people sharing one big blood supply with all their hearts probably beating in sync and their minds connected on an ultra-powerful level. This is what existed at High Heart and probably still exists at the HOTU.

That's interesting.  What would be the function of such circles, from a telepathic communication standpoint?  

GRRM gives us the image of '1000 hearts beating as one' here in one of Jon's dreams, in association with the onomatopoiec 'boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM' of the drums, mimicking the systole-diastole of the heart sounds.  Later, in the Bran-Theon 'heart tree communion' scene, the same portentous sound is heard reverberating in the godswood, in association with Theon kneeling at the weirwood, just before Bran establishes communication with him:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat

 

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A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

 

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I think that it is more likely they use the moon as a satellite to stay connected, which would provide an easy method of bypassing the Wall. And therefore, I think the purpose of weirwood leaves is to receive moonlight (for telepathic communication), not sunlight, because we all know that tree-people don't utilize photosynthesis to survive. ;) 

I love this idea.  What's the evidence for it though?

In your opinion, who is the presence in the moon "cackling 'Snow'" at Ghost/Jon as he attempts to flee its intrusive eye?

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

"Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

 

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The simplest view is that weirnet works like a hardline like an ethernet/cat5 connection and general greensight and skinchanging are lie wifi/cellular. We see the brother hood cave in the riverlands that even there are no weirwoods left in the whole territory, the cave is filled with weirwood roots that are not rotting or decaying.  
This is a highly simplified modern parallel an I don't always agree with it, but it does work.

I like the analogy.  However, if skinchanging is like wifi, by which I take it you were implying that a remote connection could be established without having to be 'plugged in' directly to the 'cable,' then why can't the wolves sense each other when they're on opposite sides of the Wall?  

What's the significance of the cave of weirwood roots without any trees above ground?

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My personal idea is that the legend of the wall building is true, and the wall was warded by the CTOF magic, mush like Storms End and that is why the whitewalkers/wights appear to have trouble with the wall and the children move past it with no issue and so does their magic.

So it's also warded against the direwolves?

Quote

There also could be a user level issue, where someone very powerful, like Bloodraven or Bran can cross the wall with magic, but someone like Jon cannot.  

I think you may be right.  It seems to be Jon/Ghost struggling to pick up his siblings' signals rather than Bran/Summer.  I need to look over those particular passages more carefully -- maybe I'll make a topic sometime.

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This is a supreme catch. The crow does not in fact say it is a crow. nice

Thank you for the superlatives!  What might be the significance of the crow being cagey about being a crow?

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while I do not see the relationship quite as you do :D 

Sometimes you have a sweet way of saying you disagree with me completely (or in other words that I'm speaking ****).  I have trained you well... ;)

 

12 hours ago, Khal Varys said:

does that imply that BR can exercise so much control of their 'familiar's' dreams that they're in affect watching the movie he's playing for them, or is it perhaps that he can influence them but can't  control them entirely, which would then make it possible that Bran is interpreting what his dreams are depicting as being what his mind imagined?

What I mean is, is it possible that the way Bran's brain interpreted the vision is the cause of the apparent confusion BR has when asked by Bran if he is the 3EC?

Yes, this idea came up before on the 'Heresy' threads.  Given that Jon's dream in which Bran appears to him via the 'three-eyed weirwood sapling' avatar has a resemblance to the 'three-eyed crow's' visitation of Bran, one might ask if Bran realises he's appearing to Jon as a tree, not a wolf?  If you believe the telepathic connection between the brothers is being made while Bran is in the Winterfell crypt and Jon is in the Skirling Pass (despite being on opposite sides of the Wall...how does that work?), then it's clear Bran is unaware he appeared as a tree.  In reporting his experiences to Osha and the Reeds, he only talks about reaching for Summer and thereby connecting to Jon and touching Ghost without mentioning a sapling. 

Perhaps the agent in Bran's dream is treacherous rather than benevolent, so Bran's brain, sensing the underlying truth of this subliminally, translates the dream image as the embodiment of a crow, because 'all crows are liars,' as Old Nan impressed upon him!  

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The 3EC is Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers. Yes, it is that simple. To quote my favourite author, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". 

How can BR have thee eyes? Well, it's rather simple... he was a well-known sorcerer even in his youth. He only lost the one eye he lost when he was... what, 21/22? So, before he lost the eye, and after he opened his third eye, he "had" three eyes. 

And everything else being argued here, like...

why does his reply to Bran's question, "are you the 3EC?" seems reluctant? Because he's half a tree. He's not "quick" anymore, what with roots growing out of eye sockets and all that. 

“A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

I would imagine Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, aka the 3EC, hasn't  been chatting with a whole bunch of humans lately. He's half a freaking tree, after all. And that's why his response to Bran is  slow and maybe even tentative. He hasn't had that many convos w/ humans lately. 

I honestly don't see what's/where's the big mystery here. :dunno:

 

 

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58 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That's interesting.  What would be the function of such circles, from a telepathic communication standpoint?  

GRRM gives us the image of '1000 hearts beating as one' here in one of Jon's dreams, in association with the onomatopoiec 'boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM' of the drums, mimicking the systole-diastole of the heart sounds.  Later, in the Bran-Theon 'heart tree communion' scene, the same portentous sound is heard reverberating in the godswood, in association with Theon kneeling at the weirwood, just before Bran establishes communication with him:

I love this idea.  What's the evidence for it though?

The function of such circles would be to maximize telepathic capabilities. The weirnet is probably hive-minded, and it is implied that one's "soul" is tied to blood in some vague fashion. And according to my own grand theory (as you know :D), every weirwood is a tree-person like BR. I assume that directly connecting the root systems (the blood network) of their weirwoods and sharing a single blood supply would maximize their hive-minded connection and therefore maximize their power. And I think that each weirwood circle probably represents a group of greenseers who were sacrificed simultaneously to create a new and powerful addition to the weirnet. So, for instance, the ancient circle of weirwoods at High Heart contained 31 weirwoods. It may be that 31 greenseers were "sacrificed" all at the same time to create High Heart. In the HOTU, Dany sees a vision of the Undying sitting at a table (not breathing) surrounding a corrupt, floating, beating heart, and Dany's heart beats in unison to the corrupt floating heart. While I think this was just a vision and not what actually happened, I think it is a clue to the reality of the HOTU. The Undying Ones are all tree-people like BR, and they share one blood supply (which is also the sole ingredient of shade of the evening), and their hearts beat in unison, but they don't breathe because they have giant tree-lungs on the outside of their bodies constantly exposed to fresh oxygen.

Oh man, evidence for the moon... that could be a whole thread. But for now, a couple major clues: the key clue is the passage you referenced with the moon talking to Ghost. The location of the city of Braavos was prophesied by the Moonsingers. And really the moon is just all over the place in asoiaf. There is the moon and falcon of the Arryns and their moon door. There is the moon face carved into the door of the House of Black and White. The Lion of Night was probably the moon (I think the Lion of Night is actually a direct reference to the second moon exploding and causing the Long Night).

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

In your opinion, who is the presence in the moon "cackling 'Snow'" at Ghost/Jon as he attempts to flee its intrusive eye?

I think the answer to that question lies in the text right after the part you quoted:

Quote

“Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!” His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face.

“I hear you.” The room was dim, his pallet hard. Grey light leaked through the shutters, promising another bleak cold day. “Is this how you woke Mormont? Get your feathers out of my face.”

While the moon was saying "Snow" in Jon's dream, Mormont's raven was saying "Snow" in real life. So I think it is the Old Gods/BR, and he is using the moon to skinchange the raven. And a minute later, we get this quote, which directly supports my own grand theory:

Quote

He filled his basin from the flagon of water beside his bed, washed his face and hands, donned a clean set of black woolens, laced up a black leather jerkin, and pulled on a pair of well-worn boots. Mormont’s raven watched with shrewd black eyes, then fluttered to the window. “Do you take me for your thrall?” When Jon folded back the window with its thick diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass, the chill of the morning hit him in the face. He took a breath to clear away the cobwebs of the night as the raven flapped away. That bird is too clever by half. It had been the Old Bear’s companion for long years, but that had not stopped it from eating Mormont’s face once he died.

 

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