Was Eddard a hostage in the vale?

[Burning down the House]

Theon is a hostage because his father was a rebel. What had Rickard done that the iron throne would want a hostage?  Taking hostages for no reason is sure to piss of one of your most powerful vassals.  I think Ned was just a ward.

[St Daga]

On 7/4/2017 at 7:22 AM, Consigliere said:

Also, and this in only my opinion, Martin is not nearly as vague and tricky as some like to think and I strongly suspect that if this series is ever finished, it will be alot more straightforward than some expect.

It is entirely possible that GRRM isn't as much a tricksy bird as I think he is. But if things are as straightforward as you claim, then such theories as RLJ might not be true because Martin gives us the information straightforward in the text that Ned told the north Jon was his son, because Jon is Ned's son. The only mystery with Jon that GRRM gives us is the identity of Jon's mother, the father is never an issue. The rest are theories and speculation from the readers! Just like my theory on Ned as a hostage is.

[St Daga]

On 7/4/2017 at 9:12 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The gist was someone was saying Jon Arryn should have did what Aerys commanded and killed Eddard and Robert instead of calling his banners. I argued that killing Eddard and Robert would be a violation of Guest Right.

Well, is there any proof that Jon Arryn offered guest right to Eddard and Robert each time they came to the vale? Honest question here, do you think that Eddard offered Theon Greyjoy guest right at anytime he was at Winterfell, or did he not have to because Theon was a hostage of the crown? How does that work exactly. You live in my home, you are clothed by me, fed by me, trained by me, but I never offered you guest right protection? Maybe.

On 7/4/2017 at 9:12 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Joffrey was fully within his rights to have Ned executed after Ned's confession of guilt. Rickard Karstark admitted he murdered the Lannister kids as well, Robb was within his rights to have him executed. Rickard Stark asked for a trail that Eddard and Karstark never asked for and Aerys made a sick joke out of it. 

I am not saying that Joff and Robb and Aerys, for that matter, didn't have the right to do what they did and execute traitors, but it would have been smarter to keep them as hostages.

On 7/4/2017 at 9:12 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Aerys was Mad the whole realm including his son knew it.  Until there is evidence to the contrary I'll stand by that opinion.

Aerys maybe was mad as a hatter. But I have started looking at the text and questioning what is commonly accepted or hinted at in the text, such as Aerys "madness". What if that was something that the winning side of the rebellion perpetuated to help build their own monarchy? I am certain that Aerys was cruel and arrogant, but was he bat shit crazy?

 

[Consigliere]

10 minutes ago, St Daga said:

It is entirely possible that GRRM isn't as much a tricksy bird as I think he is. But if things are as straightforward as you claim, then such theories as RLJ might not be true because Martin gives us the information straightforward in the text that Ned told the north Jon was his son, because Jon is Ned's son. The only mystery with Jon that GRRM gives us is the identity of Jon's mother, the father is never an issue. The rest are theories and speculation from the readers! Just like my theory on Ned as a hostage is.

Nowhere did I claim that everything should be taken at face value particularly those clearly presented in the text as mysteries. However that doesn't mean anything and everything is possible. What you are proposing is utterly convoluted with no textual support whatsoever. If Ned was a hostage in the Vale, Martin would have planted clues pointing towards this over the course of 5 books, just like he did with RLJ, but he didn't. You are seeing a mystery where none exists. The author's own words makes it crystal clear that once Ned turned sixteen he was free to come and go as he pleased and even returned to Winterfell on occasion before that.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

21 minutes ago, St Daga said:

It is entirely possible that GRRM isn't as much a tricksy bird as I think he is. But if things are as straightforward as you claim, then such theories as RLJ might not be true because Martin gives us the information straightforward in the text that Ned told the north Jon was his son, because Jon is Ned's son.

No, not really. To quote Jon Stewart, "that's comparing apples and dragons".

If you visit any single R+L=J thread, you'll see some serious weight of evidence indicating that we're supposed to question Jon Snow's parentage. Conversely, there's no traces left in the text compelling us to question the mundane fact of Ned and Bob being raised in the Vale as is usual among the nobility. Nothing in the text proper, nothing in numerous SSM's, either.

And, for bonus negative points, it affects the further plot none. There's no point in secrecy. If Bob and Ned were kept hostages, WTF wouldn't Martin have spelled it out in the first book? You put a lot of work in a theory which, even if one day proves true, will bring nothing but a collective shrug. As, I don't know, learning one day that Robett Glover's parents initially entertained the thought of naming their son Addam.

[St Daga]

On 7/4/2017 at 10:10 AM, devilish said:

The battle of ninepenny kings brought most of Westerosi nobility together however one main family was missing ie the Starks of Winterfell. That must have hurt Rickard who was one of the very few Stark Lords to actually bother looking past his icy region. Maybe Rickard thought that by sending Ned to the Vale he would be able to build a bond between House Arryn, House Baratheon and House Stark. Maybe Rickard wanted to make sure that this oaf he's marrying his daughter to wasn't an idiot after all. Benjen was too young for the task and Brandon was too short tempered for it. 

Do we know that RIckard Stark had any ambition outside of the north except for what Barbrey Dustin tells us? Her intent is very questionable, and it is not clear what game she is playing, with Theon, or with Roose. The only think I am certain of with her, is that she hates Ramsay.

So, to speculate that Rickard Stark was "hurt" because of his lack of inclusion in plotting of southron houses is flat speculation. Not any different that what I am doing with my theory, honestly.

On 7/4/2017 at 10:10 AM, devilish said:

Maybe Rickard thought that by sending Ned to the Vale he would be able to build a bond between House Arryn, House Baratheon and House Stark.

This is pretty much the same idea that many of the "southron ambitions" theories are built on, but they are just theories at this point, just like RLJ or that Joffrey sent the catspaw to kill Bran. Theories not proved in the text!

On 7/4/2017 at 10:10 AM, devilish said:

Maybe Rickard wanted to make sure that this oaf he's marrying his daughter to wasn't an idiot after all.

Well, timeline wise, Ned was in the vale long before Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, so that seems like something that might have happened much later. I doubt very much that is why Ned was sent to the vale.

On 7/4/2017 at 10:10 AM, devilish said:

Benjen was too young for the task and Brandon was too short tempered for it. 

Brandon seems like a grey eyed version of Robert Baratheon. I think they would have gotten along famously! However, Rickard didn't sent his  heir to the vale, he sent his second son. Still, I think the intent behind the move is vague, and you are guessing as much as anybody. The fact is, there is nothing in the text either way, so it's easy to speculate.

[St Daga]

On 7/4/2017 at 11:44 AM, thranta flyer said:

Going back to the term "ward" itself, in the world of ASoIaF, I think that anyone who hears "x is a ward of y" can know several things:

1)  Y is responsible for the financial aspects of raising X.

2)  Y is also responsible for the education of X in terms of learning politics/fighting/religion/etc... as these are all things anyone in any great house may need.

I think that there are also some immediate questions that will also be asked:

Why is this person a ward? 

Is this a ward on friendly terms, has there been an "exchange" of children/goods/promises/etc...? 

Is this child a hostage?

Does the child need fostering away from home because home is not safe?

Is there an adequate teacher at home?  (Do they have a parent, a maester, etc...)

There are so many reasons that a ward could be fostered out.  I think that the best way to approach the term "ward" is to think of what a person would glean from "ward" immediately.  One most important things the person meeting the ward would understand is that no matter what the reasons for the ward being a ward, the lord responsible for the ward has adopted them legally in terms of raising that ward as their own child.  The lord may choose how to treat the ward, but that ward must still be treated as a noble son/daughter of a noble house with all the protections of that house.  A kid in Theon's situation is no less protected (unless his father acts up) than one in Eddard or Myrcella's positions.  All three of them are there for very important reasons, and any jeopardy to their safety is call for war.  That's why taking wards works because the nature of a ward can change with the circumstances.

A thoughtful look at the intent behind wardship's. There are many variables as you point out. What I think is interesting is that you group Myrcella and Eddard together. We know that Myrcella is sent to Dorne by Tryion to keep her safe and to allow Dorne some power/control of the Iron Throne, but she is called a ward. She is however, very easily a hostage of the Martell's, and a pawn against her own house, as we see with Arienne's plot to crown her. Maybe Ned was all of those things, too? Complicated.

On 7/4/2017 at 11:44 AM, thranta flyer said:

I have a feeling that if Balon had started acting up while Theon was a ward, even though Robert would have been within his rights to call for Theon's head, I think that Jon Arryn and Eddard would have at least attempted to prevail upon Robert for a second solution.  I can see them going after Balon, Euron, and Victarion, then sticking Theon on the throne with a less threatening Uncle Harlaw as his regent.

Yes, Theon was also a pawn in the game and could easily be set up as a loyal vassal of Roberts if his father and uncles were removed. That would have been the smartest thing to do, but it depends on being able to defeat the iron born first.

On 7/4/2017 at 0:04 PM, thranta flyer said:

I wonder if Elbert was not summoned to KL with Brandon.  It may just have been that he happened to be visiting Brandon/Winterfell; the boys were close in age and would have known each other because their houses were close.  He may have gone with Brandon because he was going to be heading back to the Vale from Winterfell anyways, so why not go along.  As a young man that knew he was heir, he may also have decided to go along to show that the Vale would stand behind their friends at Winterfell, effectively making a political statement and declaring the Vale will side with Winterfell.

There is lot's of speculation of why Elbert Arryn was with Brandon Stark and what there connection might have been. We do know that Brandon was a ward of house Dustin at Barrowton, so he was not at Winterfell. If Jon Arryn sent his heir to be a ward of the north, one would think that heir would be a ward at Winterfell, and not Barrowton. But maybe Elbert was fostered at Winterfell. Until we are told, everything we come up with is speculation.

On 7/4/2017 at 0:04 PM, thranta flyer said:

Aerys may have had one possible reason to call directly for Ned's head and not Benjen's.  Benjen would have only been 14/15 when his brother and father were murdered; he wasn't yet of age AND Aerys really had no way to forcibly pull Benjen out of Winterfell and take his head because the North would immediately fortify the Neck.

For some reason, unbeknownst to us, Aerys II thought that Jon Arryn might actually yield up the heads of Ned who was of age and suddenly the head of House Stark and Robert.  It makes sense for Aerys to call for Ned's head as a test of Jon Arryn's loyalty to the crown.

I'm not sure what possible reason Aerys could have for Robert's head aside from Aerys has some notion that Storm's End was part of the plot against him, either from paranoia or proof--at that point it didn't really matter because Aerys seemed to believe what he wanted to believe.

There is something we are missing from this story. I suppose GRRM is withholding it, or he has very subtly hinted at it and we have missed it. Either Aerys has good reason to expect that Jon Arryn would execute his wards (who were to hold to still be wards, so why does the text refer to them that way), or Aerys didn't demand Ned's head or Robert's, or only one or the other, but not both. I think Jon Arryn could have been playing a big manipulation game and I am not all that sure that Aerys made that demand. But if he did, why was in "Defiance" for Jon Arryn to refuse?

On 7/4/2017 at 0:04 PM, thranta flyer said:

If we go back to Elbert being present in KL with Brandon and Rickard and Aerys perceived that as a threat from the Vale, Aerys may have thought that Robert was tainted against him because of Robert's allegiance with Winterfell and the Vale.

Hopefully some day, GRRM will give us another book or two and some of these questions may be answered.

[St Daga]

On 7/4/2017 at 0:01 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

he may have disagreed with the decision depending on the situation but he certainly would have beheaded Theon

I don't think this is certain at all! But we are all entitled to our opinions.

[St Daga]

On 7/5/2017 at 9:52 AM, cpg2016 said:

Ned is explicitly a voluntary ward and not a hostage,  This is the whole point of the Southron Ambitions theory.  Foster kids are considered kin; this is a way to bring the Arryns into the fold, as now Ned and Robert have ties of family back to the Vale.

Southron ambitions is a theory still and not at all proven (Just like RLJ). And even if it is the case, of all the families supposedly involved, Ned is the only child that is sent anywhere as a ward, that we know of. Plus, the Starks already have connections to the vale, because the Stark's have married into the Arryn family a couple times.

On 7/5/2017 at 9:52 AM, cpg2016 said:

No, those kids are explicitly hostages.  Dany just comes to like them (because they are innocent) and doesn't want to kill them.

This could be the case with Theon and Ned.There are to many parallel's in this story, from one generation to the next, not to suspect everything we see is repeated in a slightly different manner from years before.

[St Daga]

On 7/5/2017 at 9:40 PM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Thanks for adding a quote to my general idea 

Sure! 

[St Daga]

On 7/6/2017 at 0:44 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

I was always under the impression that Quentyn Martell was sent to Yronwood because of the duel between Oberyn and the previous Lord Yronwood.

Yes, that is the story we are given, but in Dorne, House Martell and House Yronwood have a history like House Stark and Bolton. Enemies and very grudging allies after defeat. No matter the case, I find it doubtful that Houe Stark would send a Stark to the Bolton's as a ward, and I doubt that House Martell sent a Martell to the Yronwood's without great motivation.  I think that motivation was Jon Arryn, but I understand that is tinfoil!

On 7/6/2017 at 0:44 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

Hardly anybody South of the Neck gave a damn about what happened in the North.

Well, that is not true. We know that King Jaehaerys I and Queen Alysanne cared very much what was happening in the north, so much so that they traveled to Winterfell with six dragons (a bold threat if ever) and forcecd the Stark's into giving away thousands of acres of land to the watch, an act that hurt both the Stark s and the Night's Watch. I think the Targaryen's have worried about the Stark's for a long, long time.

On 7/6/2017 at 0:44 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

My own guess would be that Rickard thought it would be a good idea to foster his second son with the Lord of the Vale.  Even if we discount Rickard's "Southern Ambitions", it wouldn't hurt Ned's potential prospects.  

I also wonder if there was something else going on between the Vale and the North at that time as Domeric Bolton was fostered with the Redforts.  I highly doubt that Roose would have sent his son and heir anywhere as a hostage.

If we find out at some point that Elbert Arryn was fostered at Winterfell, then I will believe this type of plan was in place between the north and the vale. You bring up Domeric Bolton, and that is another north/vale connection, but I would not consider the Bolton's and Stark's to be particularly warm and fuzzy, so I don't think the. y were planning this together. Were the Bolton's trying to outplay the Stark's?

There are some interesting connections between the north and the vale. The Stark's have married into the Arryn line twice that I can think of off the top of my head, but only one of those marriages bore children. But they are area's that still have a lot of first man's blood, and that might be the connection needed to form some bonds. I think Jon Arryn was a crafty man, much like GRRM.

On 7/6/2017 at 0:44 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

My own guess would be that Rickard thought it would be a good idea to foster his second son with the Lord of the Vale.  Even if we discount Rickard's "Southern Ambitions", it wouldn't hurt Ned's potential prospects.  

What if Ned caught the eye of some Lord who didn't have a son?   Suddenly, he goes from a second son holding a keep for his brother to, for all intents and purposes, a Lord in his own right in the Vale.

Alternatively, he could have found another match in the Vale and brought his wife and a fat Dowry back home.

Well, lot's of things could have been going on. But I still find it odd that at 19, Ned isn't holding land in either the north for Rickard or in the Vale for Jon Arryn. Why hasn't a marriage at least been contracted for Eddard at this point?

Although, you bring up an interesting point. The Stark's and  the vale do have some blood connection, I think. Rickard Stark's aunt married into house Royce and she had three daughters, who all married into other vale houses (House Waynwood, House Corbray, and House ?) Maybe the mystery house is House Arryn? So, if something happened to Jon Arryn's heir, his nephew Elbert, then does that make Ned a likely person that Jon would consider leaving the vale too? It seems a big jump, but maybe ... work considering!

 

[St Daga]

On 7/6/2017 at 3:58 PM, Luddagain said:

I suspect that Rickard (and perhaps his father too) had rebellion in the back of their minds and this was probably one reason for sending young Ned to the Eyrie - what safer place- and probably Steffon Baratheon thought the same. Where to place your possibly favourite (or most valuable) sons, safe from devious plans of the mad king and/or Tywin Lannister.

While I do agree that the vale, especially the Gates of the Moon and the Eyrie, were incredibly safe places, I am not sure that Ned or Robert were sent their for safe keeping. If that was the case, why didn't Rickard send his heir Brandon, as Steffon sent his heir Robert, and not his second son Stannis. Something just doesn't add up for me but I admit I could be looking at it too hard!

[St Daga]

On 7/6/2017 at 7:13 PM, SFDanny said:

I would only add a few things. Elbert's inclusion in Brandon's party may well show a foster father relationship as well as the one we know of with Ned and Jon Arryn. Stefan Stasse over at the Tower of the Hand, I believe, is the first to suggest this and I think there is a good case that can be made for this being true. Elbert is fostered, the theory goes, in the North with Brandon as his foster brother much as Ned and Robert are with Jon Arryn. This is likely a trading of Ned for Elbert between the Vale and the North. No hostages involved.

It would be fitting if Elbert Arryn was fostered in the north, but shouldn't he be fostered at Winterfell? But if the theory goes that the boys need to be fostered together, then Elbert could not have been a Stark ward at Winterfell. We know that Brandon was fostered at Barrowton, so if Elbert was with him, doesn't that give the Dustin's more power than the Stark's in this situation?

I will have to check out the theory that you mention to see if that might answer some of my questions.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Well, is there any proof that Jon Arryn offered guest right to Eddard and Robert each time they came to the vale? Honest question here, do you think that Eddard offered Theon Greyjoy guest right at anytime he was at Winterfell, or did he not have to because Theon was a hostage of the crown? How does that work exactly. You live in my home, you are clothed by me, fed by me, trained by me, but I never offered you guest right protection? Maybe.

If Jon Arryn welcomed Robert and Eddard into the Vale/Eyrie and fed them then they are technically protected by Guest Right. Bread and Salt seems more like a symbolic gesture done when the guest and/or host are on uneasy terms with each other. For instance when King Robert and his family visit Winterfell there is no offer of bread and salt that I can remember because no one felt it was needed.

Theon was sent to the North and Winterfell as a hostage. He wasn't welcomed as a guest like foster children and wards are. It just so happens the Stark's are kind people and treated him more like a ward then a hostage. 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Aerys maybe was mad as a hatter. But I have started looking at the text and questioning what is commonly accepted or hinted at in the text, such as Aerys "madness". What if that was something that the winning side of the rebellion perpetuated to help build their own monarchy? I am certain that Aerys was cruel and arrogant, but was he bat shit crazy?

 

Well he was going to burn all of King's Landing down with himself in it. He burned men alive to get aroused so he could brutally rape his sister wife. 

Then you have Aerys Kingsgaurd Ser. Barristan who told Dany this.

 I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

So we know Targaryen madness is not propaganda. Barristan believes it himself and was told this by a Targaryen way before a rebellion was ever fought. 

[St Daga]

On 7/7/2017 at 4:21 PM, Burning down the House said:

Theon is a hostage because his father was a rebel. What had Rickard done that the iron throne would want a hostage?  Taking hostages for no reason is sure to piss of one of your most powerful vassals.  I think Ned was just a ward.

You might be right. But I can't help by think that Aerys, like many Targaryen's, was keeping a close watch on the Stark's in the north. We don't know what Rickard might have been up to. He could have been plotting against the throne from the day he become Lord of Winterfell, or he might have been loyal to the crown, and sent his son as a good will ward of the crown, to a place of the crown's choosing! 

I look at the situation at Duskendale with the Darklyn's as another option. It is theorized that Tywin orchestrated that insurrection against the king, and then, when it failed, he and Aerys destroyed House Darklyn in a pretty horrible way. Tywin is not above getting someone to step up to be the bad guy, and then abandoning them when failure is the outcome. So, what if Tywin, or someone else, orchestrated the same fall for Rickard Stark as they did for Lord Darklyn?

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

You are seeing a mystery where none exists.

Yes, maybe. I am simply questioning some of the wording that does not seem so straight forward in the text that GRRM has given us. I am not asking you to believe.

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

The author's own words makes it crystal clear that once Ned turned sixteen he was free to come and go as he pleased and even returned to Winterfell on occasion before that.

The author's own words, are "For now, though, nothing is canon until it appears in the books." from an SSM published Aug,2005. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/Heraldry/P435 

[SFDanny]

23 minutes ago, St Daga said:

It would be fitting if Elbert Arryn was fostered in the north, but shouldn't he be fostered at Winterfell? But if the theory goes that the boys need to be fostered together, then Elbert could not have been a Stark ward at Winterfell. We know that Brandon was fostered at Barrowton, so if Elbert was with him, doesn't that give the Dustin's more power than the Stark's in this situation?

I will have to check out the theory that you mention to see if that might answer some of my questions.

Brandon is fostered in Barrowton, and that is where I would think Elbert would go as well. There is a reference to a Great Uncle who was a hero of the War of the Ninepenny Kings from Lady Dustin and I would guess his presence figures prominently in the choice of where they are fostered.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If you visit any single R+L=J thread, you'll see some serious weight of evidence indicating that we're supposed to question Jon Snow's parentage. Conversely, there's no traces left in the text compelling us to question the mundane fact of Ned and Bob being raised in the Vale as is usual among the nobility. Nothing in the text proper, nothing in numerous SSM's, either.

My point here was not to bring doubt on RLJ, but as a response saying that it is not straightforward in the text, as an answer to someone who replied to be that that GRRM is more straightforward than we think. I don't think he is that straightforward at all. That is why theories like RLJ have such a huge following. It's not straightforward but hinted at in the text. Lot's of things are not at all straightforward and we might not have seen all of them, yet!

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And, for bonus negative points, it affects the further plot none. There's no point in secrecy. If Bob and Ned were kept hostages, WTF wouldn't Martin have spelled it out in the first book? You put a lot of work in a theory which, even if one day proves true, will bring nothing but a collective shrug. As, I don't know, learning one day that Robett Glover's parents initially entertained the thought of naming their son Addam.

As to this, thanks for keeping it classy!  It's one of the reason this board always feels so open and welcoming.

If we find out Robett Glover was supposed to be named Addam, I will be sure to give you all the credit you deserve, whether it affects the plot or not!

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Brandon is fostered in Barrowton, and that is where I would think Elbert would go as well. There is a reference to a Great Uncle who was a hero of the War of the Ninepenny Kings from Lady Dustin and I would guess his presence figures prominently in the choice of where they are fostered.

The War of the Ninepenny Kings does seem to be a pinpoint moment for idea of many houses gathering together. This uncle you mention does bring our attention to that war. GRRM rarely mentions something without intent, so the fact that he has Barbrey tell Theon that bit of information must be important. I plan to look into that theory that you mentioned. Thanks.

One thing I find interesting about the War of the Ninepenny Kings is that is seems almost an afterthought by GRRM, but I don't know if it's world building or something he only ever planned on introducing later in his story. (I am conflicted about Aegon/Young Griff in this way, too) The only mention of this war in the first three books is in the Kingsguard White Book when Jaime is reading about Ser Barristan. The other mentions come in Feast and Dance, the second act of his story.

[Consigliere]

56 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Yes, maybe. I am simply questioning some of the wording that does not seem so straight forward in the text that GRRM has given us. I am not asking you to believe.

The author's own words, are "For now, though, nothing is canon until it appears in the books." from an SSM published Aug,2005. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/Heraldry/P435 

How weird that you put stock in the author's words only when it suits you. For there to be a mystery, an author first needs to establish said mystery (i.e. Jon's parentage, TPtwP etc). Five books in and there is not a single shred of textual evidence that supports Ned being a hostage of Jon Arryn. The 'mystery' doesn't exist.