Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover

[golden_eyes]

We last saw these two in A Storm of Swords, going to find Howland Reed and Greywater Watch. It's highly hinted that it's a magicked place, possibly protected by the children of the forest, so this is not the easiest task, but it has been around two years and the area they are searching isn't that big. 

This leaves several possibilities

-they died in the marches... unlikely as this does not fit George's style, and killing off characters for no reasons

-They found Greywater Watch, but Howland Reed is not letting them leave ..... probable, possibly due to them uncovering R+L=J, though not sure how they would find that out

BUT in A Dance with Dragons Alysane says that Maege is with Lyra and Jory somewhere. 

-they joined their mother and Galbart at Greywater Watch... unlikely since the place is almost impossible to find

-Maege is somewhere else ... How did someone go to Greywater Watch and come back with no POV character hearing about it?

 

These characters can have major repercussions throughout the series, why are they hidden?

Also sorry if this is a repost.

[thranta flyer]

I would like to think that they made it to Howland.  However, what they do once they get there is another matter.  Did Howland and Ned decide long ago that one of them needed to be there incase something crazy went down?  Is there more to R+L=J than we suspect, and now they are embroiled in some bigger game that is larger than the GoT that we know about?

There are all sorts of possibilities, and even though we don't see those two directly, we may, unknowingly, be seeing the repercussions of what they are doing.  We only tend to see what's going on in the North through Jon's eyes, and he's on the wall where his sight is limited and the news they are given is selective.  The rest of what we see going on is through the eyes of Davos and Theon.  Even though Theon, arguably, has a great view of what's going on in Ramsey's rebellious world, all the events around him are filtered through the broken thing, Reek, that he's become, so he's not really as astute as he once was, if ever, and anything he sees is interrupted by how he's going to avoid the next torture set by Ramsey.  Davos is probably our most reliable point of view in terms of being sound of mind and body, but he doesn't know the houses of the north, so he's like a babe in the woods and is at a disadvantage and, to an extent, trust what others tell him.

We know that there is something going on in the North.  The Boltons have never been well loved.  They are ruling out of fear. The Manderlys might be part of a conspiracy, but who else?  We've got random murders happening at Winterfell and a grey-robed man/person walking about.  The Boltons have not personally covered a lot of ground north of their lands and Winterfell.  The mountain clans, especially the Flints, were connected to the Starks of Winterfell a couple generations back by marriage, and Eddard and Jon both strengthened and built on those ties.  Someone is hiding Rickon, we think.  The list goes on...  The big question is how does Howland Reed fit into any of this, and that's a huge question.  Ned was close with him, but the Crannogmen don't come out of their lands often.  If he did emerge, older and disguised, we, as readers, would never know because we've never had a physical description aside from he was small and slender in his youth.  He could be running around like Johnny Appleseed, planning and planting alliances, in Ned's name.  I've even heard theories that Ned is hiding with Howland...as tinfoil as that may seem.  In the bigger picture, to figure out what's going on in the North, with those two, and with Howland, we need to read between the lines.

The only "help" that Howland sent, and this is up for debate because we don't know for certain that he sent his kids to help Bran, but it's a strong suspicion.  I tend to think that Ned and Howland got dragged deeper into something, possibly the Targ mysticism than we know, and Howland knows a lot about how things need to play out, but he's can't just go running out and doing things all at once.  Mysticism and prophecies don't work that way, nor does GRRM, nor did Ned who was a planner.

[BalerionTheCat]

I believe they reach Greywater Watch. Since Robb is dead, they are now waiting for something. Howland may be a greenseer or has some prophetic capability. Or some children still live there. They know something and are waiting. Either Jon or the Others.

[Makk]

We know that the Crannogmen decided to try to take Moat Cailan from the Ironborn (and they were slowly succeeding) before Ramsay cleared it out with the help of Theon. To me this indicates that they are acting with a purpose so it was probable that someone Robb sent got close enough so the Crannogmen found them (although it is possible that this was because of Catelyn).

Another point is the interaction between the Mormonts and Stannis. First, after requesting their service, he receives this letter...

Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king."

Jon is baffled why Lyana is replying...

"As you command, Sire." Maege Mormont had ridden south with Robb, Jon knew. Her eldest daughter had joined the Young Wolf's host as well. Even if both of them had died, however, Lady Maege had other daughters, some with children of their own. Had they gone with Robb as well? Surely Lady Maege would have left at least one of the older girls behind as castellan. He did not understand why Lyanna should be writing Stannis, and could not help but wonder if the girl's answer might have been different if the letter had been sealed with a direwolf instead of a crowned stag, and signed by Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. It is too late for such misgivings. You made your choice.

Yet later Alysane joins up.

And then she talks to Asha about her mother and sisters

"Sisters," Alysane Mormont replied, gruff as ever. "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered."

Although she doesn't say exactly where they are, they are doing something deliberately. Assuming this is true, I think it is almost certain that they found Howland Reed and are continuing the fight with the knowledge of Robbs will.

[kissdbyfire]

I'll try to find the link to some old threads called "the great northern conspiracy", they are loaded w/ very interesting stuff.

[aryagonnakill#2]

22 minutes ago, Makk said:

We know that the Crannogmen decided to try to take Moat Cailan from the Ironborn (and they were slowly succeeding) before Ramsay cleared it out with the help of Theon. To me this indicates that they are acting with a purpose so it was probable that someone Robb sent got close enough so the Crannogmen found them (although it is possible that this was because of Catelyn).

Another point is the interaction between the Mormonts and Stannis. First, after requesting their service, he receives this letter...

Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king."

Jon is baffled why Lyana is replying...

"As you command, Sire." Maege Mormont had ridden south with Robb, Jon knew. Her eldest daughter had joined the Young Wolf's host as well. Even if both of them had died, however, Lady Maege had other daughters, some with children of their own. Had they gone with Robb as well? Surely Lady Maege would have left at least one of the older girls behind as castellan. He did not understand why Lyanna should be writing Stannis, and could not help but wonder if the girl's answer might have been different if the letter had been sealed with a direwolf instead of a crowned stag, and signed by Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. It is too late for such misgivings. You made your choice.

Yet later Alysane joins up.

And then she talks to Asha about her mother and sisters

"Sisters," Alysane Mormont replied, gruff as ever. "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered."

Although she doesn't say exactly where they are, they are doing something deliberately. Assuming this is true, I think it is almost certain that they found Howland Reed and are continuing the fight with the knowledge of Robbs will.

I feel like the Crannogmen would attack anyone other than northmen who attack Moat Cailin automatically, and would not need any orders to do so.  Not that I disagree that Maege and Glover made it.  I would be surprised if they did not make it to White Harbor after having made plans with Howland.  The only unknown imo is what additional info Howland chose to reveal/ can see magically etc. etc..

[kissdbyfire]

This is the second iteration. There's at least a 3rd and a 4th as well. Couldn't find the first one tough...

 

[Curled Finger]

Ah 1 of the great mysteries.   I remember discussions about ship captains headed in 1 direction and extra boats going in other directions and all sorts of places Glover & Mormont could have got to.   Truth is we don't know anything for certain.   Robb was already on the offense with Cat and told her he was shipping her off to some place she would be out of his way and watched. Any number of things could have been planned and executed.  Can we trust the author to give us a straight story about anything?   Why would Robb send Maege and Galbart to Howland Reed anyway?   The papers were allegedly going elsewhere as our intrepid emissaries were supposed to be traveling with false documents or instructions or something.    Could be a lot of misdirection in that conversation.   Howland Reed is no different than Glover & Mormont.   He's a loyal and dependable banner man.    There is no way Robb or Cat could understand the events or confidences Reed shared with Ned Stark.   However, if what we read about Lord Reed is true, he is the one person any one would go to in order to hide or hide something.  Maege and Galbart are brave, so hiding themselves is unlikely.    Chances are if they were sent to Reed, it was to hide something.  I think if we could pull apart the entire chapter we might get on the right track with something, but there is an awful lot of subterfuge there. 

For all it's worth, I believe the Blackfish or Edmure Tully was another character who signed Robb's will.   Most of the witnesses are dead.   Curious that it is witnesses who have survived, as far we know, thus far.  

I take it Lyra and Jory are daughters.  @Lost Melniboneanhosted a conversation about this very thing about a year ago.  Perhaps he can pop in with a link or thoughts?

[kissdbyfire]

It took me a while but I've finally found the first iteration of the GNC thread, my fave:

 

[sweetsunray]

19 hours ago, golden_eyes said:

We last saw these two in A Storm of Swords, going to find Howland Reed and Greywater Watch. It's highly hinted that it's a magicked place, possibly protected by the children of the forest, so this is not the easiest task, but it has been around two years and the area they are searching isn't that big. 

Actually it's little over half a year. The RW occurred towards the end of 299 AC, shortly before the turn of the year of 300 AC (the Purple Wedding). aFfC covers about 4-5 months after aSoS, so up until "june" 300 AC. aDwD takes off a little after where aFfC takes off, and a lot of aDwD covers the same time period as aFfC, except towards the end. It's at the most "July" or "August" of 300 AC.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah 1 of the great mysteries.   I remember discussions about ship captains headed in 1 direction and extra boats going in other directions and all sorts of places Glover & Mormont could have got to.   Truth is we don't know anything for certain.   Robb was already on the offense with Cat and told her he was shipping her off to some place she would be out of his way and watched. Any number of things could have been planned and executed.  Can we trust the author to give us a straight story about anything?   Why would Robb send Maege and Galbart to Howland Reed anyway?   The papers were allegedly going elsewhere as our intrepid emissaries were supposed to be traveling with false documents or instructions or something.    Could be a lot of misdirection in that conversation.   Howland Reed is no different than Glover & Mormont.   He's a loyal and dependable banner man.    There is no way Robb or Cat could understand the events or confidences Reed shared with Ned Stark.   However, if what we read about Lord Reed is true, he is the one person any one would go to in order to hide or hide something.  Maege and Galbart are brave, so hiding themselves is unlikely.    Chances are if they were sent to Reed, it was to hide something.  I think if we could pull apart the entire chapter we might get on the right track with something, but there is an awful lot of subterfuge there. 

For all it's worth, I believe the Blackfish or Edmure Tully was another character who signed Robb's will.   Most of the witnesses are dead.   Curious that it is witnesses who have survived, as far we know, thus far.  

I take it Lyra and Jory are daughters.  @Lost Melniboneanhosted a conversation about this very thing about a year ago.  Perhaps he can pop in with a link or thoughts?

I figure Maege and Galbart are east of Winterfell with Robett, Howland, Hallis, Davos, some unicorns, a young boy, and a big, black direwolf with green eyes. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145020-lyra-and-jory-are-with-our-mother-and-the-great-northern-conspiracy/

[The Bard of Banefort]

I think they probably have made it to Greywater Watch by now. The problem is, if Jon is the heir to the North, how do they get him to leave the Night's Watch, especially in a region where desertion is punishable by death? I suppose Howland could have had a vision of Jon being assassinated and then resurrected, but I'm not sure if Howland even has those kinds of powers. That's something I don't see people speculate on a lot: even if a part of the North wanted to crown Jon, how do they plan on releasing him from his vows? 

[Makk]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think they probably have made it to Greywater Watch by now. The problem is, if Jon is the heir to the North, how do they get him to leave the Night's Watch, especially in a region where desertion is punishable by death? I suppose Howland could have had a vision of Jon being assassinated and then resurrected, but I'm not sure if Howland even has those kinds of powers. That's something I don't see people speculate on a lot: even if a part of the North wanted to crown Jon, how do they plan on releasing him from his vows? 

The Night watch completely depends on the North to supply them with food. As Robb said, "If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows." I don't even think it would require that.

[The Bard of Banefort]

7 minutes ago, Makk said:

The Night watch completely depends on the North to supply them with food. As Robb said, "If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows." I don't even think it would require that.

Do they have a hundred men to send them right now though? With the Boltons technically in charge, I'm not sure how they could bribe the Night's Watch without getting caught. 

[Makk]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Do they have a hundred men to send them right now though? With the Boltons technically in charge, I'm not sure how they could bribe the Night's Watch without getting caught. 

Well they were going to remove the Boltons from power first. And they would soon have lot's of Dreadfort men to send to the wall.

Of course now that Jon was executed they won't even need to do that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Howland likely knows Bran and Rickon survived. Consider how that news would affect Maege and Gallbart's plans after the Red Wedding.

Frankly, it makes the ridiculous Wex plotline kind of redundant, especially with Robett Glover serving as a potential link between the conspirators at Greywater Watch and those in White Harbor. Clearly Lyanna Mormont knows the truth too, all the way up in Bear Island, and was perhaps a bit less subtle in declaring it outright.

[Adam Yozza]

Jon assumes that Maege wouldn't have brought all of her older daughters with her, but who knows? She might have done. Lyra and Jory were might have been in the South with Maege and went with her to Greywater. In fact, I'm sure that during Cat's last chapter (RW) she mentions how Dacey didn't join her mother and sisters in going to Greywater.

I think by now they've probably found it, and are plotting with the Manderly's and whoever else to put the Stark's back in Winterfell.

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah 1 of the great mysteries.   I remember discussions about ship captains headed in 1 direction and extra boats going in other directions and all sorts of places Glover & Mormont could have got to.   Truth is we don't know anything for certain.   Robb was already on the offense with Cat and told her he was shipping her off to some place she would be out of his way and watched. Any number of things could have been planned and executed.  Can we trust the author to give us a straight story about anything?   Why would Robb send Maege and Galbart to Howland Reed anyway?   The papers were allegedly going elsewhere as our intrepid emissaries were supposed to be traveling with false documents or instructions or something.    Could be a lot of misdirection in that conversation.   Howland Reed is no different than Glover & Mormont.   He's a loyal and dependable banner man.    There is no way Robb or Cat could understand the events or confidences Reed shared with Ned Stark.   However, if what we read about Lord Reed is true, he is the one person any one would go to in order to hide or hide something.  Maege and Galbart are brave, so hiding themselves is unlikely.    Chances are if they were sent to Reed, it was to hide something.  I think if we could pull apart the entire chapter we might get on the right track with something, but there is an awful lot of subterfuge there. 

For all it's worth, I believe the Blackfish or Edmure Tully was another character who signed Robb's will.   Most of the witnesses are dead.   Curious that it is witnesses who have survived, as far we know, thus far.  

I take it Lyra and Jory are daughters.  @Lost Melniboneanhosted a conversation about this very thing about a year ago.  Perhaps he can pop in with a link or thoughts?

Actually, the reason he sends them is pretty clear. He outright states it. He needs someone to go and find Howland, so that he'll send out guides to lead two thirds of Robb's force through the swamps to attack Moat Cailin from the east and north. He sends two people because Greywater is hard to find.

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Howland likely knows Bran and Rickon survived. Consider how that news would affect Maege and Gallbart's plans after the Red Wedding.

Frankly, it makes the ridiculous Wex plotline kind of redundant, especially with Robett Glover serving as a potential link between the conspirators at Greywater Watch and those in White Harbor. Clearly Lyanna Mormont knows the truth too, all the way up in Bear Island, and was perhaps a bit less subtle in declaring it outright.

He probably does. Immediately after Vic takes MC, Howland and his men begin waging a brutal guerrilla war and decimate the Ironborn with comparative ease. Once Theon takes Winterfell and holds Jojen and Meera hostage, he stops. By Feast/Dance though, we can see that he's started it up again. Meaning he either believes his children to be dead already, or alive and well and out of danger from the Ironborn. If it's the latter, as I think it is, it stands to reason that at least Bran is alive. He is their mission after all, and if he were dead why would they not have returned? So I think he probably knows his kids and at least Bran are alive, and if he's been in contact with Wyman he probably knows Rickon is.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

Jon assumes that Maege wouldn't have brought all of her older daughters with her, but who knows? She might have done. Lyra and Jory were might have been in the South with Maege and went with her to Greywater. In fact, I'm sure that during Cat's last chapter (RW) she mentions how Dacey didn't join her mother and sisters in going to Greywater.

I think by now they've probably found it, and are plotting with the Manderly's and whoever else to put the Stark's back in Winterfell.

Actually, the reason he sends them is pretty clear. He outright states it. He needs someone to go and find Howland, so that he'll send out guides to lead two thirds of Robb's force through the swamps to attack Moat Cailin from the east and north. He sends two people because Greywater is hard to find.

He probably does. Immediately after Vic takes MC, Howland and his men begin waging a brutal guerrilla war and decimate the Ironborn with comparative ease. Once Theon takes Winterfell and holds Jojen and Meera hostage, he stops. By Feast/Dance though, we can see that he's started it up again. Meaning he either believes his children to be dead already, or alive and well and out of danger from the Ironborn. If it's the latter, as I think it is, it stands to reason that at least Bran is alive. He is their mission after all, and if he were dead why would they not have returned? So I think he probably knows his kids and at least Bran are alive, and if he's been in contact with Wyman he probably knows Rickon is.

Jojen knew he was taking Bran North of the Wall from the start. One would assume that he shared his visions fully with his father. We know Howland is deeply interested in the mystical arts, given his trip to the Green Men narrated in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So he would no doubt not only believe his son, but have a good understanding of his gifts and would probably be the one who encouraged him to seek out Bran.

So, since he knows Jojen's visions ALWAYS come true, he would know that the children would escape Winterfell and travel to the Three Eyed Crow. And in fact, since we know the Crannogmen grew close to the Children during the Age of Heroes, who is to say that Jojen is the only greendreamer among them? Most likely Howland has more greendreamers serving as advisors to him, giving him insight into events he would otherwise not be aware of.

In any case, it is fairly certain that he knows Bran and probably Rickon too, are alive. Bran at the very least.

So armed with that knowledge, how would Maege and Gallbart act differently?

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Jojen knew he was taking Bran North of the Wall from the start. One would assume that he shared his visions fully with his father. We know Howland is deeply interested in the mystical arts, given his trip to the Green Men narrated in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So he would no doubt not only believe his son, but have a good understanding of his gifts and would probably be the one who encouraged him to seek out Bran.

So, since he knows Jojen's visions ALWAYS come true, he would know that the children would escape Winterfell and travel to the Three Eyed Crow. And in fact, since we know the Crannogmen grew close to the Children during the Age of Heroes, who is to say that Jojen is the only greendreamer among them? Most likely Howland has more greendreamers serving as advisors to him, giving him insight into events he would otherwise not be aware of.

In any case, it is fairly certain that he knows Bran and probably Rickon too, are alive. Bran at the very least.

So armed with that knowledge, how would Maege and Gallbart act differently?

Presumably they would help Manderly in installing Rickon as Lord of Winterfell, given that Bran is stuck beyond the Wall and a cripple besides.

[Free Northman Reborn]

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Presumably they would help Manderly in installing Rickon as Lord of Winterfell, given that Bran is stuck beyond the Wall and a cripple besides.

Yes. Which is what I believe will happen.

Spoiler

A role of Rickon's (Stark figurehead) which I think the Show had Sansa usurp in order to shortcut the whole Vale plotline while still keeping her and Littlefinger relevant.

I think Jon will support Rickon as figurehead to take back the North for the Starks. With the support of the loyal Northern lords like the Mormonts and Glovers amongst others.