B + A = J, R + L = J, R + L = D, N + A = J

[WalkinDude]

I don't know.  I still believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But the idea that Arthur Dayne is Jon's father to create Azor Ahai is a pretty badass story.  Imagine if it wasn't consensual and what that knowledge would do to Jon's psyche.  Could the bed of blood be the NIssa Nissa portion of Lightbringer with Dawn?

 

The problem with this theory is who are the 3 heads?  if Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara, who are the other 2 Targaryens?  Daemon Blackfyre was more Targaryen than any of Rhaegar's children, so (f)Aegon could be one.  But if Jon isn't a Targaryen, who's the 3rd head?  Sure, there can be a million hidden Targaryens that have never been mentioned, but there needs to be at least some text based reason to support a theory. Saying "wouldn't it be cool" isn't a theory.

 

At least we know Arthur Dayne was at the TOJ, but was he there for 9 months?  That's the problem with these theories, once you try to make them work, you realize they fall apart.  And saying "Rhaegar took Lyanna to the Red Keep, convinced or forced her to sleep with Dayne, then escorted her to the ToJ for some reason" requires a lot more evidence than Dayne was at the ToJ when Ned showed up.

[TMIFairy]

3 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Ashara has brown hair. Prostitues with valyrian features are only EASILY find at Essos. And the deception would be very hard considering everyone knew that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, or was simply assumed he did.

E verdade. Por isso eu escrevi que uma coisa desas e "possivel", nao que e "certo".

True all that. That is why I used the word "could", not that it's a sure thing.

Not "easy", yet all IMO "possible".

Hence IMO Ned could make a valiant attempt and die trying

PS: Sorry for the stuttering Portuguese, it has been a while since I've last used it

[Ygrain]

If Lyanna's child had prominent Targ features, it still makes zero sense for Ned to send the child elsewhere and not think about him/her for a single instant in his PoVs. Raising a Targ-looking baby at Winterfell might cause some whispering, so why the heck not ask Howland, who is in on the secret anyway, to take care of the said child at Greywater Watch where no-one ever comes, and Ned coming to visit his pal every now and then wouldn't be suspicious, either.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

If Lyanna's child had prominent Targ features, it still makes zero sense for Ned to send the child elsewhere and not think about him/her for a single instant in his PoVs. Raising a Targ-looking baby at Winterfell might cause some whispering, so why the heck not ask Howland, who is in on the secret anyway, to take care of the said child at Greywater Watch where no-one ever comes, and Ned coming to visit his pal every now and then wouldn't be suspicious, either.

I don't remember but, on the fever dream Ned has it explicits states Jon as the person he's failing to protect? Because he starts having those dreams after Robert threats to kill Dany.

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I don't remember but, on the fever dream Ned has it explicits states Jon as the person he's failing to protect? Because he starts having those dreams after Robert threats to kill Dany.

You're indeed misremembering. He never thinks or dreams about failing to protect anyone. He thinks about keeping his promises on the way from the brothel, which is after  he resigns as Hand because of the assassination plans. 

He starts thinking about broken promises only after he is imprisoned, which is after Robert calls off the assassination. It is unclear which promises are meant (he had made a couple to Robert which he is unable to keep at that point) but he wishes to talk to Jon very much and his spirit then visits Bran and Rickon to tell something about Jon. It's all about Jon who needs to be told something, never Dany or anyone else.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I can not believe people are STILL denying R+L=J. and persisting on some convoluted impossible parentage for Dany. 

[TMIFairy]

1 - RLJ has not been confirmed in the books. Such a parentage is possible, but so are several other possibilities.

2 - Daenerys not being A+R does seem convulted, IMO

[Weirwood Ghost]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

1 - RLJ has not been confirmed in the books. Such a parentage is possible, but so are several other possibilities.

2 - Daenerys not being A+R does seem convulted, IMO

I view it oppositely.

I've read the books so many times to lose count, and each time I still reach the conclusion of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. I've read about real life royal secret marriages in medieval ages observing it happened more often than not, that marriage was an act that was made verbally between two people of which being royal, without any other party present and most often in privacy, and that the marriage was made valid upon consummation of the marriage (having sexual intercourse). There was never any binding certificates because they didn't exist. They were often made even if the King or Queen was already married. It would get addressed after the fact via disposal of the first spouse/annulment of first marriage/some other means (accusing the first spouse of treason).

Daenerys has the curious issue of repeated memories of a place that no one else ever mentions: the home with the red door and the lemon tree outside, but never of her brother Viserys being part of those memories. Illyrio makes comments that "she even looks like a Targaryen princess yes"...as if there were some doubt.  I find her memories through her "brother's" accounts, but not via her own memories hold suspicion...especially where Illyrio is concerned. Tyrion ask so many questions to himself while in the company of the "cheese monger" that made me wonder about Daenerys role in Illyrio's intentions.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're indeed misremembering. He never thinks or dreams about failing to protect anyone. He thinks about keeping his promises on the way from the brothel, which is after  he resigns as Hand because of the assassination plans. 

He starts thinking about broken promises only after he is imprisoned, which is after Robert calls off the assassination. It is unclear which promises are meant (he had made a couple to Robert which he is unable to keep at that point) but he wishes to talk to Jon very much and his spirit then visits Bran and Rickon to tell something about Jon. It's all about Jon who needs to be told something, never Dany or anyone else.

I see, I believe in RLJ but it's fun to see other theories that aren't completely ludicrous. That are some things in every theory that doesn't fit. And some information about the TOJ is indeed missing. I hope in TWoW we have a confirmation about jon's parantage.

[Rickon Stark The Aulë]

On 7/4/2017 at 4:02 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

what is your opinion about the identity of some of the most famous children of the books.

I hope it's never confirmed in the books. I think I would seriously lose all interest in the series if Lord Reed just declares Jon is the rightful king of the 7 kingdoms and will save all of mankind with his flaming magical sword with the entirety of the world behind him.  

If it is true then I would hope that it would just be a nod for the reader and not just a whole "Hey I'm king! So follow me to your deaths!" sorta deal. 

I just see Jon doing what he thinks is the right thing because of the way Ned raised him and his own character and not because he was some savior of the world and the son of some idiot who got himself and thousands of other people killed because he wanted to cheat on his wife. 

I personally think this whole need for Jon to be something more is just a side effect of the constantly over-used fantasy trope of the secret  prince who saves the world. Jon doesn't need to be the son of Lyanna or Rhaegar to be a good person, it is just as plausible that a Teen Ned got into something way in over his head and broke his wedding vows on one night. You have to keep in mind that Ned is leading 20,000+ men in a rebellion to overthrow a king, can you seriously tell me if you know any Teens that could handle that type of responsibility and pressure? 

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 5/7/2017 at 11:43 AM, TMIFairy said:

Brandon's by "random woman" is the most likely scenario.

Time travel seed for the win!

On 5/7/2017 at 11:43 AM, TMIFairy said:

With Ashara being the most probable mother.

Time travel fetus for the win!

[Ser Loras The Gay]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Time travel seed for the win!

Time travel fetus for the win!

Brandon stark Eddard's brother. Or you're just being sarcastic?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Brandon stark Eddard's brother. Or you're just being sarcastic?

I know. Brandon died in 282 and Jon in 283. Not only that but there was enough time between Brandon's death and Jon's birth for Robb to be born and still managed to look older than Jon. So between Brandon’s death and Jon’s birth there were more than 9 months.

Hence the timeline is: Brandon's death-Ned's and Cat's wedding-Robb's birth-Jon's birth.

As for Ashara being Jon’s mother, Jon was born two years after the single meeting between Ashara and Brandon (281) when btw most likely nothing happened.

[TMIFairy]

 

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Hence the timeline is: Brandon's death-Ned's and Cat's wedding-Robb's birth-Jon's birth.

As for Ashara being Jon’s mother, Jon was born two years after the single meeting between Ashara and Brandon (281) when btw most likely nothing happened.

Not necessarily.

Both Brandon and Ashara could have met many times between the Harrenhal Tournament and his death. We do not have a day by day breakdown for their movements in those two years, besides knowledge that Brandon was in the South for part of that time. And definitely he was there when he learned of Lyanna's elopment/kidnapping.

B+A=J or B+random woman=J is possible up to Brandon's arrest - or even the eve of his death. This allows for 3-4 months between Jon's and Robb's births.

A week for a raven with the news of arrest to get to Winterfell, three weeks for Rickard to come to KL, up to a month between Rickard and Brandon's murder and Eddard getting to WF, another month to call the banners and travel to Riverrun with the North's van. That is three months, four at maximum.

If we allow for Brandon having sex while in the Black Cells - shave a month off that.

No need for any time travel ...

With babies coming in all sorts of sizes - and growing at different rates - and gestation being around 38 weeks - it is IMO possible to pass Jon as being Robb's peer/minimally younger when both are several months old.

As noted by Rickard Stark the Aule - a stressed out nineteen year old Eddard "OMG I'm going to die tomorrow!" Stark might had been unfaithful to Catelyn. Or sired Jon on the ubiquitous fisherman's daughter - making him 4-6 weeks older than Robb.

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

A week for a raven with the news of arrest to get to Winterfell, three weeks for Rickard to come to KL, up to a month between Rickard and Brandon's murder and Eddard getting to WF, another month to call the banners and travel to Riverrun with the North's van. That is three months, four at maximum.

Rickard was already on the way to Riverrun when the shit hit the fan.

 

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

If we allow for Brandon having sex while in the Black Cells - shave a month off that.

No need for any time travel ...

The important part here is that the Rebellion, which started after Brandon's death, lasted about a year. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, Jon about 8-9 months before Dany, i.e. at around the Sack or a bit later, which makes his conception several months after Brandon's death.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

With babies coming in all sorts of sizes - and growing at different rates - and gestation being around 38 weeks - it is IMO possible to pass Jon as being Robb's peer/minimally younger when both are several months old.

The younger the baby, the bigger difference a couple of months makes in the mental and physical development

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

As noted by Rickard Stark the Aule - a stressed out nineteen year old Eddard "OMG I'm going to die tomorrow!" Stark might had been unfaithful to Catelyn.

Yeah, and filling some commonborn wench's belly with his seed is such a terrible secret that he can't tell his wife or his son who she was. 

Not to mention that he states about himself in his inner monologue that he 1) is not one to seek the carnal pleasures, and 2) keeps his vows.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Or sired Jon on the ubiquitous fisherman's daughter - making him 4-6 weeks older than Robb.

Except that at the time of meeting FMD, he was not married to Catelyn yet, while he claims that the dishonour took place after his wedding.

And again: if it was FMD, what was so damned secret about it? 

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

1 - Rickard was already on the way to Riverrun when the shit hit the fan.

 

2 - The important part here is that the Rebellion, which started after Brandon's death, lasted about a year. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, Jon about 8-9 months before Dany, i.e. at around the Sack or a bit later, which makes his conception several months after Brandon's death.

3 - The younger the baby, the bigger difference a couple of months makes in the mental and physical development

4 - Not to mention that he states about himself in his inner monologue that he 1) is not one to seek the carnal pleasures, and 2) keeps his vows.

5 - Except that at the time of meeting FMD, he was not married to Catelyn yet, while he claims that the dishonour took place after his wedding.

6 - And again: if it was FMD, what was so damned secret about it? 

1 - thanks for that factoid. Makes the timing B+somebody=J easier.

2 - something feels off about the timing you give there ...

3 - We do not know the exact ages in months. When asked "isn't he too big/too small to be X months?" - It is very easy to answer - "No. He was born small/large."

4 - and women the world over will say - "oh, yes, a man's word on that is to be believed IMMEDIATELY".

5 - if Jon is his it is better to pass the bastard as younger than Robb. Avoids the bastard getting notions of "I'm elder, Winterfell should be mine" somewhere down the line. Jon could get such ideas by himself or have somebody put them into his head.

6 - if Jon is Brandon's then he could be used to usurp Robb. In either 5 or 6 - who cares for bastardy if he has enough swords behind him? With Vale-raised Ned bumbling along and trampling Northern sensibilities he  had no chance to learn about (of which Ned might be aware) such a revolt could be popular. "Burn the Sept at Winterfell! Braise the Trout! For Lord Jon - the TR00 STARK" is a nice rallying cry

In sum - IMO there are such gaps in what we, readers, know, and what we know is what character X or Y (who have their own agendas/gaps in knowledge) told us, that Jon could be Ned's, Brandon's or Rheagars. Or possibly even Rickard's or Aerys' or - for that matter - the random KG's who had a go at Lyanna after Rheagar was finished.

If GRRM finishes the next book then maybe we will learn "why the Big Secret".

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Both Brandon and Ashara could have met many times between the Harrenhal Tournament and his death. We do not have a day by day breakdown for their movements in those two years, besides knowledge that Brandon was in the South for part of that time. And definitely he was there when he learned of Lyanna's elopment/kidnapping.

Brandon was at the Riverlands and Ashara, being Elia's handmaiden, at Dragonstone. 

4 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

B+A=J or B+random woman=J is possible up to Brandon's arrest - or even the eve of his death. This allows for 3-4 months between Jon's and Robb's births.

Jon was younger than Robb. There is no possibility of Jon being born before Robb's birth and Brandon's death.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

2 - something feels off about the timing you give there ...

GRRM told us when Jon was born.

4 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

If we allow for Brandon having sex while in the Black Cells - shave a month off that.

You are right. There would had been no guards guarding a traitor and Ashara would had flew all the way from Dragonstone.

4 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

With babies coming in all sorts of sizes - and growing at different rates - and gestation being around 38 weeks - it is IMO possible to pass Jon as being Robb's peer/minimally younger when both are several months old.

You think that Cat a mother of five, a midwife or a maester hadn't noticed that Jon was several months older than Robb.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

6 - if Jon is Brandon's then he could be used to usurp Robb. In either 5 or 6 - who cares for bastardy if he has enough swords behind him? With Vale-raised Ned bumbling along and trampling Northern sensibilities he  had no chance to learn about (of which Ned might be aware) such a revolt could be popular. "Burn the Sept at Winterfell! Braise the Trout! For Lord Jon - the TR00 STARK" is a nice rallying cry

This is just bs. The laws are clear, if Jon was Brandon's bastard he would had come after Ned's children. No one would had supported him against Robb.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

1 - thanks for that factoid. Makes the timing B+somebody=J easier.

2 - something feels off about the timing you give there ...

Because it doesn't fit your theory?

The length of the Rebellion being about a year comes from two sources withing books and is further supported by GRRM's statement about Aegon being about a year or so old when murdered. The 8-9 months between Dany and Jon's birth comes from GRRM when responding to someone trying to figure out the timelines. The person estimated that Jon was older by a year, GRRM narrowed it down. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

3 - We do not know the exact ages in months. When asked "isn't he too big/too small to be X months?" - It is very easy to answer - "No. He was born small/large."

Sigh. Size. Is. Not. The. Point. A three months baby is able to hold its head, and that's it. A six months old is able to sit and perform a variety of moves and is teething. There is no mistaking one for the other.

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

4 - and women the world over will say - "oh, yes, a man's word on that is to be believed IMMEDIATELY".

INNER monologue. He isn't telling anyone, he is making those assessments for himself.

 

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

5 - if Jon is his it is better to pass the bastard as younger than Robb. Avoids the bastard getting notions of "I'm elder, Winterfell should be mine" somewhere down the line. Jon could get such ideas by himself or have somebody put them into his head.

Please, show a single instance in the books where this line of reasoning is valid and where a bastard would get support against a trueborn son of an age.

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

6 - if Jon is Brandon's then he could be used to usurp Robb. In either 5 or 6 - who cares for bastardy if he has enough swords behind him? With Vale-raised Ned bumbling along and trampling Northern sensibilities he  had no chance to learn about (of which Ned might be aware) such a revolt could be popular. "Burn the Sept at Winterfell! Braise the Trout! For Lord Jon - the TR00 STARK" is a nice rallying cry

Bullshit. Or fanfiction, if you'd prefer. Zero textual support for such claims.

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

In sum - IMO there are such gaps in what we, readers, know, and what we know is what character X or Y (who have their own agendas/gaps in knowledge) told us, that Jon could be Ned's, Brandon's or Rheagars. Or possibly even Rickard's or Aerys' or - for that matter - the random KG's who had a go at Lyanna after Rheagar was finished.

If GRRM finishes the next book then maybe we will learn "why the Big Secret".

This is pure alibism. We have had five books, consistently showing that for every reveal, there is a careful buildup. There is absolutely zero buildup for the big "secret" of Jon being the son of some totally insignificant common girl. You are not investigating a real-world case of doubtful paternity but literary work. If you want to stuff your fingers and go "lalala" to what the author is showing, be my guest, but claiming at this point of the story that anything goes is nonsense.

[TMIFairy]

LALALALA!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

6 - if Jon is Brandon's then he could be used to usurp Robb.

If Jon is Ned's - or believed to be Ned's - same thing (Cat even said as much). So, fail again.