B + A = J, R + L = J, R + L = D, N + A = J

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Hey guys, long time no see! What's changed since I've been gone?

@Ser Loras The GayI see the board is still full of condescending jerks eager to bully anybody who diverges from Board Orthodoxy.

If you want to provoke an exchange, you need to be tad more subtle than that, love.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Dany's core childhood memory is about a pact that never mattered?

You need to work on your reading comprehension, hun.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Really? Dany's core childhood memory is about a pact that never mattered? Did Oberyn somehow inject memories of a Dornish childhood into her brain?

Well--Oberyn's called the Viper. Perhaps he has brain-injecting fangs? 

In all seriousness--Martin took a fair amount of time starting from Dany's first POV to show that Dany's backstory has holes, inconsistencies, and clashes with other facts.

Which could all be dismissed as character development--except that he took the time on it. Martin could just as easily have had Dany grow up with JonCon, or with Darry--someone who knew the facts and taught her well. Or some other option.

He didn't--he has Dany's backstory be a mess with gaps.

Not too unlike Jon's backstory has big gaps with multiple people guessing in the text at filling those gaps in.

And so far Martin hasn't shown why he did that for Dany. Seems like we shouldn't dismiss it just yet.

[TMIFairy]

2 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Don't worry, @Ser Loras The Gay, @Northern_Star, @TMIFairy, @Maester Crypt, @Thesilea Greyjoy et al, the Board Orthodoxy Police and their lack of manners can be annoying, but you can also find many smart, perceptive, and open-minded people on the boards who are interested in having constructive conversations about the books.

Thanks, mate.

I'm thick skinned and used to "rough" boards so I should survive unscathed.

There is no discussion with those who "Have The Truth". I do not dismiss RLJ - I simply see it as one of several possibilities.

Yes, I've noticed people with "the louder I shout the more true it becomes" mindset. I am slowly building up my "ignore user" portfolio.

As to babies - my son was 4,150kg/nine pounds at birth. When looking at other several month old babies - those which started at 3kg/6-7 pounds - I and other dads/mums often erred by a month or two when judging ages. So I simply dismiss "not possible to fudge baby age" claims as examples of - to pull a quote from WH40K - "Be strong in your ignorance".

[Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Hey guys, long time no see! What's changed since I've been gone?

I see the board is still full of condescending jerks eager to bully anybody who diverges from Board Orthodoxy.

Yes, we are smarter than you. And we do actually follow the textual evidence through to logical conclusions unlike people who like to cherry-pick and pat themselves on the back thinking they are so "open-minded".

[TMIFairy]

9 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Yes, we are smarter than you. And we do actually follow the textual evidence through to logical conclusions unlike people who like to cherry-pick and pat themselves on the back thinking they are so "open-minded".

I am not worthy to read thy posts, oh Smart One!

[Consigliere]

44 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I am not worthy to read thy posts, oh Smart One!

So why did you quote me then, oh trying to be Smart One!

[Luddagain]

TM fairy

You hit the nail on the head- you can fundge a baby by a nmonth or two - not more

 

Something like this

Newborn cannot be confused with a baby of 2 weeks

2 weeks maybe up to 4 weeks - no more

4 week baby possibly one of 8  weeks  but NOT much more 

8 weeks(2 month) max would be three and a half months at

4 months - max 6 months

6 months - 9 months max three months - this is the walking/crawling age and growth and milestones are VERY obvious - more than a baby lying in a crib.max 9 months 

9 months max 12 months -as above

from 1 year on you can start to get more room for fudging ages but rarely more than 3 months.

The other time that is hard to fudge is around 6/7 when the milk teeth disappear - you have  maximum i year window for fudging ages.

The next big time is puberty - especially for girls. A girl who is supposedly only 10 but is really 13 will be very obviously not who she says she is or a boy of 11 who suddenly starts to grow facial hair!!!.  Realistically I think you can fudge an absolute maximum of 1 year.   Of course after puberty you can fudge a great deal and many a kid of 17 can be mistaken for 27 or vice versa.

 

 

[Northern_Star]

11 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Yes, we are smarter than you. And we do actually follow the textual evidence through to logical conclusions unlike people who like to cherry-pick and pat themselves on the back thinking they are so "open-minded".

The OP clearly ask for Opinion not for textual evidence, while he also dropped the word canon. I just don't understand why people get so personally when they talk about a fictional universe. There is a lot of evidence that points to R+L = J, however its still not canon because it has not been 100% confirmed.

[TMIFairy]

3 hours ago, Luddagain said:

TM fairy

You hit the nail on the head- you can fundge a baby by a nmonth or two - not more

4 months - max 6 months

And IMO this is the moment that is of interest to us. There is IMO a "window of opportunity" for Jon's conception by Brandon some a 6-8 weeks before Robb's. And a "fudge" of about 2 months is what Ned needs for his lie to work. 

Catelyn sees Jon for the first time in Winterfell. At that point neither Robb nor Jon were infants - Jon was not weaned yet, so probably neither was Robb. But they were a "good several" months old at that point. Robb is said to had been born when Ned was "fighting in the South", however we understand it.

Trident? Post Trident?

Post Sack?

Post lifting siege of Storms End?

Having fun around the Tower of Joy?

With Ned taking his bloody time to come back the boys could had been close to a year by that time ... two month's fudge no prob

As to Jon being nine months older than Daenerys. This learned analysis

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NXo8QweryVwgaS7I5M9Sw8s1pUM4RAO-QJtA2LiMekk/edit

has her conception a week AFTER the Battle of the Trident. Which - if correct - and depending on how we understand "fighting in the South" i.e. that date of Robb's birth - still makes Jon's conception by Brandon possible.  

Not to mention that human gestation is AROUND 38 weeks. 

However, my experience in this area is that I beget my son on January 1st and held him in my arms on September 18th - due term to the day!

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Northern_Star said:

The OP clearly ask for Opinion not for textual evidence, while he also dropped the word canon. I just don't understand why people get so personally when they talk about a fictional universe. There is a lot of evidence that points to R+L = J, however its still not canon because it has not been 100% confirmed.

I fully understand both what the OP asked for as well as the definition of canon. I gave my opinion on page 1 and then bowed out of the thread until a certain poster quoted me and a few others and proceeded to insult us. I simply responded in kind as this poster has a history of doing this kind of thing. He doesn't have any good arguments to make so resorts to insults.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 14/07/2017 at 8:38 AM, Northern_Star said:

 

Where did you see that claim in my previous post? Anyway good luck with blaming people on the internet for your apparent terrible life.  

My apologies for having briefly confused your own stupid idea with someone else's. You'll note in my defence that this thread is full of them. 

So, where exactly is your evidence that Dany is the daughter of Ashara Dayne and Aerys Targaryen? 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I see the board is still full of condescending jerks eager to bully anybody who diverges from Board Orthodoxy.

Yeah, I see the board is still being in-fluxed with people who lack reading comprehension and like to insult people who take their fandom for these books seriously.  Don't worry when you've got bored with these boards and run out of silly unfounded ideas/have had them all proven wrong by the books being finished. We will all still be here discussing the actual story and the various themes it explores.  In an intelligent and meaningful manner. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You need to work on your reading comprehension, hun.

good one. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

20 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

16 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I see the board is still full of condescending jerks eager to bully anybody who diverges from Board Orthodoxy.

Yeah, I see the board is still being in-fluxed with people who lack reading comprehension and like to insult people who take their fandom for these books seriously.  Don't worry when you've got bored with these boards and run out of silly unfounded ideas/have had them all proven wrong by the books being finished. We will all still be here discussing the actual story and the various themes it explores.  In an intelligent and meaningful manner.

 

Hey!

I didn't write that line, VC did! Don't misquote.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Hey!

I didn't write that line, VC did! Don't misquote.

Oh, I am sorry I Copied the quote from your post as I couldn't be arsed with going back to the page they had posted it on originally (Slow internet is slow so loading takes an age and often crashes.)  I hadn't noticed that it had tagged you as the poster. I was intending it to come up in just a plain quote box. 

My reply was very much entirely aimed at @Victarion Chainbreaker

[Luddagain]

I just do NOT see Jon as Brandon's son - makes no sense in the story line - unless Catelyn hates him because she loved brandon.

 

Much, much more likely that Jon is ned plus ashara and Real Aegon was brandon plus Elia.   In any case I do not think it was ANY stark who dinhonoured Ashara - I think it was Aerys.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

46 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

I just do NOT see Jon as Brandon's son - makes no sense in the story line - unless Catelyn hates him because she loved brandon.

 

Much, much more likely that Jon is ned plus ashara and Real Aegon was brandon plus Elia.   In any case I do not think it was ANY stark who dinhonoured Ashara - I think it was Aerys.

OK, but what evidence is there for that? Any of it? I mean FFS! you can't just pull theories out of your bum and expect people to buy them, especially when there are far more plausible and well-evidenced theories already out there. 

 

[TMIFairy]

2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I just do NOT see Jon as Brandon's son - makes no sense in the story line - unless Catelyn hates him because she loved brandon.

 

Catelyn "hates" Jon because

a/ Ned claims that Jon is his

and

b/ had been conceived AFTER they married

and

c/ because Ned shoves Jon into Catelyn's face every day.

Now, why does Ned "The Perfect Parenting Wolf" Stark do all of the above is a totally different matter

Maybe Ned decided that Catelyn was so much in love with his more attractive brother that it would pain her less if he claimed Brandon's bastard as his own? Remember - Ned was 18 or 19 at that time - and it "seemed a good idea at that time"

 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

It's nice to know I've been missed. I accused you of relying on logical fallacies, and you responded with a straw man:

20 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If you want to provoke an exchange...

and several ad-hominems:

20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You need to work on your reading comprehension, hun.

17 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Yes, we are smarter than you. And we do actually follow the textual evidence through to logical conclusions unlike people who like to cherry-pick and pat themselves on the back thinking they are so "open-minded".

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

My apologies for having briefly confused your own stupid idea with someone else's. You'll note in my defence that this thread is full of them. 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yeah, I see the board is still being in-fluxed with people who lack reading comprehension and like to insult people who take their fandom for these books seriously.

and wait, did you actually high five each other over an ad-hominem attack?

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

good one. 

You did! It's nice to know that my victory in the matter of a certain lemon tree still hurts.

But wait, you may be tempted to say, I attacked you with ad hominem attacks first:

4 hours ago, Consigliere said:

...until a certain poster quoted me and a few others and proceeded to insult us. I simply responded in kind as this poster has a history of doing this kind of thing. He doesn't have any good arguments to make so resorts to insults.

That's the thing, I provided quotes of each one of you being jerks in the first place. If you hadn't been insulting the newer board members, then you wouldn't have been in my post. Yes, I insulted you, but I have a clear "history" of standing up to bullies on this board. And then there's the small fact that I refuted points you made, whereas you just talked shit about me personally. 

 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Don't worry when you've got bored with these boards and run out of silly unfounded ideas/have had them all proven wrong by the books being finished. We will all still be here discussing the actual story and the various themes it explores.  In an intelligent and meaningful manner. 

You mean, when you make the board such a hostile place for unconventional ideas that all the innovative thinkers migrate to reddit?

 

Look, I know it sucks. You spent years railing against and attacking lemongate, only to have George confirm that it's a thing and declare that its leading proponent was "very perceptive." That's gotta hurt. A lot. But perhaps the best response is not to double-down on your hatred for the person who proved you wrong. How about learning how to disagree with someone without being a dick?

Anyway, on to the points! It's a shame the haters made so few of them, instead relying on personal attacks on me.

6 hours ago, Luddagain said:

TM fairy

You hit the nail on the head- you can fundge a baby by a nmonth or two - not more

That's the thing, we're not asking for a huge gap in age, just enough to justify Maester Luwin's comment about bastards growing up faster. The real question is why? Why would Jon's purported age be different from his developmental age?

 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So, where exactly is your evidence that Dany is the daughter of Ashara Dayne and Aerys Targaryen? 

 

Quote

Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

-ADWD, The Kingbreaker

That's certainly evidence that Dany is Ashara's daughter. Her Targaryen traits indicate that she has a Targaryen father, which according to the timeline would have to be either Aerys or Rhaegar.