B + A = J, R + L = J, R + L = D, N + A = J

[TMIFairy]

22 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

That's the thing, we're not asking for a huge gap in age, just enough to justify Maester Luwin's comment about bastards growing up faster. The real question is why? Why would Jon's purported age be different from his developmental age?

Great point about the Westerosi "urban legend" of "bastards growing up faster" in Jon's case actually being inspired by the fact that he is 2? 3? months older than claimed. And the later Ned comes to WF after the war the margin of "fudging" grows.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Great point about the Westerosi "urban legend" of "bastards growing up faster"

Sigh. How does a line that simple and straightforward get so frequently misunderstood? "Grow up" meant "mature". And "bastard" is just one of many ways of saying "facing adversity". Nobody ever said that Jon Snow was taller thanks to being a bastard.

[TMIFairy]

12 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sigh. How does a line that simple and straightforward get so frequently misunderstood? "Grow up" meant "mature". And "bastard" is just one of many ways of saying "facing adversity". Nobody ever said that Jon Snow was taller thanks to being a bastard.

Ok, maybe I misunderstood.

But I could argue that at times there is a fine line between "physical development" and "development milestones". Sometimes there also is a corelation between "mature" and "calendar age"

I've met serious 14 year olds and childish 60 year olds, BTW - all Trueborn

 

[Ygrain]

54 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

I provided quotes of each one of you being jerks in the first place.

If that's an opposite of your definition of "open-minded", I'm most happy to be a jerk. Seems I'm there in a good company.

[TMIFairy]

What a sandbox ...

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sigh. How does a line that simple and straightforward get so frequently misunderstood? "Grow up" meant "mature". And "bastard" is just one of many ways of saying "facing adversity". Nobody ever said that Jon Snow was taller thanks to being a bastard.

Taking one possible interpretation and declaring it's the only valid interpretation doesn't make it so. Maester Luwin could very well have been referring to physical growth.

[Luddagain]

OK I am going to post a really, really really out of the box idea.

 

What if all three probable dragon riders are the progeny of Ned and Ashara

Aegon - who was the "stillborn" daughter- he would be about 15 months older than Jon

Jon - conceived during Ned's flight

Dany - conceived at Starfell and again who is about 15 months younger than Jon.

 

The problem of course is that why are two of them so "targ" in appearance if neither parent is a targ.  I have a ay our wacky theory (actually not a theory just an idea) on this but will post it separately at some time.

[Luddagain]

Just to add to this idea from a different angle what if all three are Rhaegar's kids

Aegon  via Elia - water

Jon via Lyanna -beast (in ths case a direwolf not a Lion)

Dany via Ashara - whom he may also have loved. This Ashara is Nissa Nissa

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

28 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

OK I am going to post a really, really really out of the box idea.

 

What if all three probable dragon riders are the progeny of Ned and Ashara

Aegon - who was the "stillborn" daughter- he would be about 15 months older than Jon

Jon - conceived during Ned's flight

Dany - conceived at Starfell and again who is about 15 months younger than Jon.

 

The problem of course is that why are two of them so "targ" in appearance if neither parent is a targ.  I have a ay our wacky theory (actually not a theory just an idea) on this but will post it separately at some time.

We know from this SSM that Jon is 8 or 9 months older than Dany. And how would you account for Lyanna? And why would these children's identities need to be kept secret?

Edit: you ninja'd me! Yes, the 3 kids being Rhaegar's with all different mothers would be leave a lot fewer holes.

Just for clarification, are you talking about Aegon as the baby who was killed or Aegon on the poleboat?

[Luddagain]

Victarian

 

Thanks - i had not caught upon that one -or at least that it was martin himself saying Jon was 9 months older than Dany. This narrows down option for parents, given that 

1. If Dany were Lyanna's child Jon would need to have been born just shortly after the war started (it lasted a year and  if ToJ was at the very end than Jon would need to have been born  about 3-4 months in and at least 4-6 months before Robb.  This is too big a gap. I always though this unlikely now it seems certain.

2. The ages mentions are consistent with the story line and what we a told. We meet Jon when he is 14, about 4 moths before his 15th birthday (it takes about that time for Robert to arrive (travelling slowly) have a several weeks stay, delay leaving because of Bran's accident, then for Jon to travel to the wall and wait bout 3 weeks for his birthday. We meet Dany when she is still 13  and putting together the timelines we can place her at about 13 years 10 months when she marries. Robert gets word of the marriage ()say it takes about 1 month to get the message to him), Jon would still not yet be 15 while Dany is on the cusp of turning 14

3, It makes some things logical partners. If Dany was really born at Dragonstone then Jon was born at the end of the war (ruling out Brandon as Daddy) and of course making Lyanna as mother more likely.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

19 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

You did! It's nice to know that my victory in the matter of a certain lemon tree still hurts.

You mean, when you make the board such a hostile place for unconventional ideas that all the innovative thinkers migrate to reddit?

Look, I know it sucks. You spent years railing against and attacking lemongate, only to have George confirm that it's a thing and declare that its leading proponent was "very perceptive." That's gotta hurt. A lot. But perhaps the best response is not to double-down on your hatred for the person who proved you wrong. How about learning how to disagree with someone without being a dick?

 

-ADWD, The Kingbreaker

That's certainly evidence that Dany is Ashara's daughter. Her Targaryen traits indicate that she has a Targaryen father, which according to the timeline would have to be either Aerys or Rhaegar.

 

 

2

What victory? It seems you have your own version of reality which relies as much on fantasy as the novels themselves. You have made no victories here my friend. 

Good Reddit is where these "theories" belong I only wish they'd stay there, Reddit, lol, the cess pit of the internet. maybe if that is where you are most comfortable stick to hawking your ideas there, where the collective IQ is approximately -10. My 8-year-old has better reading comprehension than the average Reddit user. 

When exactly did GRRM confirm Lemongate is a thing? He just said that it was perceptive to notice that Braavos does not have a great climate for citrus fruits. And alluded to it possibly being indicative of something. 

However, we also know that originally Dany's childhood was spent in Tyrosh, and that he later switched it to Braavos. Which very easily explains the discrepancy. And this can easily be explained by the Lemon Tree having been in the Sealords Palace, where he would have the resources to grow an exotic tree. I live in North Yorkshire right on the exposed cliffs next to the sea and the castle here has a garden full of peach tree's, lemon tree's, and grape vines. Because the Marquis is very wealthy and he can employ excellent gardeners and provide shelter and glass houses etc.  

Even if the lemon tree is significant that in itself in no way proves dany is not who she thinks she is. It only shows part of her might have been spent childhood somewhere other than Braavos. You are extrapolating far too much from that tiny SSM. 

Sigh, yes that quote could be taken to cast doubt about Dany's maternity. However, it does not indicate Aerys as her father. And the actual text we have in TWOIAF tells us that Aerys had by this point completely ceased sexual relations with women other than Rhaella.  And whilst that one quote could be stretched to question Ashara as a possible mother for Dany, the rest of the books do not at all indicate it. We know the night Dany was conceived, a POV character was the witness. We also know that Rhaella was on Dragonstone for the time following this conception up to the birth, and we know that she and Viserys were not alone, you have to ask yourself why would a woman fake a pregnancy in order to pass another woman's child off as her own. The night of Danaerys's birth is well documented she was born amidst a great storm. And at this point in time Ashara Dayne has been reportedly dead for 9 months.  

The thing about theories is that one needs more than a stray line of text to build them on. Things need to make narrative sense. There needs to be logic to it. One of the main things which gives weight to the idea Varys is talking shit when he claims fAegon is Rhaegar & Elia's son is the fact that he has no logical reason to swap the babies.  This clues the reader into being suspicious about his claim, and then there is a weight of other hints and clues which tell us to be wary of believing this tale.  So in order to believe Dany might be Ashara's daughter by Aerys there needs to be #1 reason to believe the two had relations #2 reason to believe Rhaella would fake a pregnancy in order to pass Ashara's daughter off as her own. #3 a narrative driven reason for this to be the case. #4 clues about her true destiny pertaining to this alternative parentage. 

Take Aerys being the father of Tyrion as another clear example of the text holding clues which the reader can collate in order to guess at a hidden parentage. Tyrion has one green Lannister eye and one black eye, the Targaryens eyes have been described as so dark a purple as to appear black and he has both Golden blonde hair and white blonde hair, The Targaryens are frequently described as having bi-coloured hair. And white blonde can be the same as Silver blonde with the latter being a more regal seeming description for the former. 

Tyrion has dragon themed dreams, as do many Targaryen's. And he was pretty obsessed with dragons as a child. 

Tyrion has a twisted misshaped body and was rumoured to have been born with a tail, the Targaryens have birthed multiple deformed babies with dragon like features. 

His mother died in childbirth as did Jon Snows and Danaerys Targaryens. GRRM loves his rule of three 

Aerys did desire Joanna Lannister and was said to have taken liberties during her bedding. we also know he did pursue her when they were younger and that Rhaella despaired of him making whores of her ladies, Joanna was one of her ladies. 

The world book confirms that Joanna was at court at a time when she could feasibly have got pregnant with Tyrion and it would work for his birth timeline. 

This also works with Aerys swearing off extra marital relations as it occurred before he made that decision. 

Narratively it makes sense for him to be Aerys's son, as he has a strong Dragon theme running through his arc and is one of the main POV characters in a story which has dragons at its centre. 

See, wow that is a huge amount of evidence for Tyrion Targaryen. Danaerys dayne yeah, not a lot of evidence for that. Err barristan thinks she has Ashara's eyes and she might be slightly confused about where parts of her childhood took place, but equally, it could just be a writing inconsistency caused by the author's decision to change the location of her childhood. 

I would also like to point out that I am actually very good at accepting when I am wrong about a theory, only yesterday I was proven wrong about an idea and straight away acknowledged this and dropped to theory.  So if you turn out to have been correct I will totally come back and say, wow, sorry I was wrong. Will you do the same? 

[Ser_Jon_General]

If Dany isn't who we're told she is - daughter of Aerys and Rhaella - then what does it add to the story? 

As far as anyone is aware, the only person left at the beginning of the story with any knowledge of her birth is Viserys, now deceased.  There is no one left who might be able to cast doubt on her legitimacy, so the obvious conclusion is that Dany is exactly what we've been told she is and it wouldn't matter if she wasn't because without a worthy source of information to claim otherwise everyone will believe that she is exactly who she, and everyone else, believes she is.

Plus, when Viserys was at the height (depths?) of his lunacy, does anyone really believe that he wouldn't have casually blurted out that she was just a bastard?

For Jon, if he's Brandon's child with Ashara, or Ned's child with a wetnurse or other random woman, how does it carry the story forward (other than making Robert's entry to the world's worst joke even more bizarre - Kings are a rare sight in the north. Robert snorted. More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!)?  He would remain a bastard of no importance beyond Winterfell and The Wall.

All the theories other than R+L=J & A+R=D require so many vague links and complex conspiracies that, if they were to be true, they'd probably damage the story overall, shoehorning twists for the sake of shock value rather than storytelling.  GRRM is not M. Night Shyamalan, all of the big shock so far events in ASOIAF have been heavily foreshadowed and undoing all the the R+L=J evidence in the books thus far for the sake of adding an unseen twist would make the story a joke.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Ser_Jon_General  

Basically what you just said.  The main problem besides the fact they have scanty evidence which doesn't add up to anything truly compelling is that they don't make narrative sense. This is a story, it has to work as a story. Dany being Ashara's daughter doesn't add a single thing to the story. Jon being the son of a random low born unnamed fisherman's daughter or a wet nurse from Dorne adds nothing to the story.  Jon being Brandon's son adds nothing to the story, and Jon being Ashara's son adds nothing to the story. 

[kissdbyfire]

@Ser_Jon_General, very well said, I agree wholeheartedly. Apart from all the timeline issues that these theories have, the main problem is that none would make any narrative sense whatsoever. Other than being "oh so shocking, I never saw that coming". And as you say, w/ the amount of hints and foreshadowing throughout the books, it would be a massive asspull, and that's simply not Martin's style. 

[Ygrain]

No narrative sense + no textual support = nope nope nope. No hint at Brandon or Benjen indulging in Starkcest, no hint at Rhaegar pursuing Ashara, no hint at Aerys pursuing Lyanna or Ashara. One lemon tree of uncertain meaning versus tons of corroborating information on Dany being exactly who she is supposed to be.

Except RLJ, the only other theory of mysterious parentage is the one about Ashara's child, who is most probably Brandon's and NOT Jon Snow; if it was indeed stillborn, or was substituted for Elia's baby, or if it's Allyria, remains to be seen. There is simply not enough information yet. If Arianne comes to Starfall and meets a girl of approximately 17, with Valyrian features and a long, solemn face, we will be wiser. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

50 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 the one about Ashara's child, who is most probably Brandon's and NOT Jon Snow; if it was indeed stillborn, or was substituted for Elia's baby, or if it's Allyria, remains to be seen. There is simply not enough information yet. If Arianne comes to Starfall and meets a girl of approximately 17, with Valyrian features and a long, solemn face, we will be wiser. 

 

absolutely! 

[TMIFairy]

LOL!

I find this whole thread amusing - foreshadowing, evidence, plot-logic.

Everything is a guess taken as truth.

As foreshadowing goes - does the Song of Dany Flint foreshadow Daenerys dying under Jon?

Danny almost the same as Danerys, and her nickname is Dany - so it MUST be about her.

Danny was gangraped to death, but that CANNOT happen to Daenerys. So it must be consensual sex at the Wall, then. And who better than her nephew (he is her nephew, right?). But Dany FLint dies, so Danaerys must die too. But Jon is a nice guy so he won't kill her. So she must die from multiple orgasm overload.

No!

Wait!

As Jon IS - this has been proven! - the Azor Ahai, who made his sword by plunging it in the chest of his beloved wife. So even more foreshadowing - Jon will plunge his metaphoric sword into Daenerys' hmmm "heart". So it has been foreshadowed twice.

I HAVE SEEN THE TRUTH!!!!!!111

Jon is the Azor Ahai who will pleasure Danerys to death - this forging his sword - and then he will sodomise the Great Other and win the war for the dawn!!!!!11

So wrote GRRM! This is what all the hints in the books tell us! It has been foretold, I tell you!

ROTFLMAO!

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

40 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

LOL!

I find this whole thread amusing - foreshadowing, evidence, plot-logic.

Everything is a guess taken as truth.

As foreshadowing goes - does the Song of Dany Flint foreshadow Daenerys dying under Jon?

Danny almost the same as Danerys, and her nickname is Dany - so it MUST be about her.

Danny was gangraped to death, but that CANNOT happen to Daenerys. So it must be consensual sex at the Wall, then. And who better than her nephew (he is her nephew, right?). But Dany FLint dies, so Danaerys must die too. But Jon is a nice guy so he won't kill her. So she must die from multiple orgasm overload.

No!

Wait!

As Jon IS - this has been proven! - the Azor Ahai, who made his sword by plunging it in the chest of his beloved wife. So even more foreshadowing - Jon will plunge his metaphoric sword into Daenerys' hmmm "heart". So it has been foreshadowed twice.

I HAVE SEEN THE TRUTH!!!!!!111

Jon is the Azor Ahai who will pleasure Danerys to death - this forging his sword - and then he will sodomise the Great Other and win the war for the dawn!!!!!11

So wrote GRRM! This is what all the hints in the books tell us! It has been foretold, I tell you!

ROTFLMAO!

 

 

All you are doing here is showing how little literary comprehension you have.  And how oblivious you are to writing technique, narrative themes and the art of the story.  I know I sound like an elitist snob, but hey if I'm going to be painted as one I may as well just tell it like it is. 

 

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

All you are doing here is showing how little literary comprehension you have.  And how oblivious you are to writing technique, narrative themes and the art of the story.  I know I sound like an elitist snob, but hey if I'm going to be painted as one I may as well just tell it like it is. 

Okay, to add some more:  it's as if someone claimed that the theory of gravity is equally probable as tiny dwarves pulling objects to the ground. Or that illnesses are caused either by tiny organisms, or bad air, or a curse, and insisting on germs is elitism. Or that it cannot be determined if a track belongs to bear, goat or duck unless you see the animal. - Or is there any other area of expertize that you would prefer, TMIFairy? The fact that you don't see something doesn't mean it ain't there. If it was a mechanic repairing your car and telling you that it absolutely matters what kind of fuel you use, it would never occur to you to argue. But, since everyone "can" read, it gives a false impression that everyone's reading skills are the same. They ain't. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

superfluous post