B + A = J, R + L = J, R + L = D, N + A = J

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Didn't he mean Aerys + Rhaella?

The problem with Ashara + Rhaegar as Dany's parents unfortunately make very little sense in why Stannis and everyone else believe Dany was born on Dragonstone 9 months after the Sack (and after Rhaegar's death)

See above.

Simple, baby swap. It's really not that hard. 

Otherwise whats the purpose of house Dayne? If i have to answer that then you all obviously havnt been paying attention. 

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany

Check out the list of evidence for why Dany is not who she thinks she is, then get back at me.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Not to mention Danaerys' birth killing Rhealla. If not the "bed of blood", then what - or who - killed the Dowager Queen?

 

Child birth, not that hard. 

Her child just didn't survive. That's the "still born" birth that Dany was swapped out for. 

Its clearlyyyyyy states in TWOIAF that Rhaella had like 12 kids or something up to Viserys. The first Rhaegar, and the last Viserys survive. Viserys nearly killing her. Thats alotttt of failed births for one woman. You guy's really think that's a hard jump to assume?

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany

Look at the evidence.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

What scheme?  Varys was 8 years old.  I doubt he was scheming at all.  Anyway, going to the trouble to find and transport a replacement and saddling yourself with an infant you have to take care of seems a lot of immediate trouble for a highly speculative gain many years down the road.  

Sorry, but I have yet to see any good case for Daenerys's parents to be anyone but Aerys and Rhaelle.

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany

 

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Viserys (I think you mean Viserys) could have been 9, or 10, or 11.   His sickly little sister who died need not have died immediately.

Sorry, I got Varys and Viserys mixed up.  Of course, I don't think Varys had in mind a marriage to a Dothraki warlord 15 years or so in advance either.  Nor any reason for Viserys or Darry to go along with a switch, either.

[SerBronnsMullet]

On 7/5/2017 at 2:48 PM, WalkinDude said:

Except it wouldn't, since as others have pointed out, if Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she is a bastard.  And two, men always come before women in succession.  This isn't Dorne.  The bastard daughter of a male heir doesn't take precedence  over the 2nd son.

 

There's this continued desire to be a naysayer among some readers.  I get it, Dany's history is murky and something is up.  Lemon Trees don't grow in Bravos.  Quaithe telling her to "remember who you are."  But why would Ned Stark, who made a promise to Lyanna, let his niece disappear with a Targaryen loyalist and with her 8 year old uncle?  How the hell does that provide more protection for her than if Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Ned sacrificed everything he believed in to keep his nephew safe?  

 

If Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara, why lie?  Why not tell Catelyn that Jon is the bastard of his brother?  Catelyn is married to Ned.  She loves Ned.  How does lying about fathering a bastard save Catelyn's feelings compared to saying "Yea, my brother, the guy you were supposed to marry, but ran off to the Red Keep and threatened the crown prince and was killed, he fathered a bastard with Ashara Dayne."

 

This isn't the TV show.  Martin's writing and story direction make sense.  TWOW isn't out yet, so no one can say definitively one way or the other.  But you can't interject theories that make no sense and completely violate the story Martin has so carefully crafted.  Maybe Jon and Dany are twins (unlikely due to when we know each as born) but there's no reasonable explanation based on what we've read and know about Ned Stark about how he'd make a promise to his dying sister and then hand off her child to a complete stranger before heading to Starfall, picking up Brandon's bastard child, then hiding the truth about Jon from Catelyn while letting Dany be drug around Essos completely unprotected.  That claim isn't the way GRRM writes, and to support it, you need a hell of a lot more than an unfounded interpretation from one of Quaithe's comments. 

Quaithe's "remember who you are" is the easiest thing to interpret and you are truly a moron if you don't grasp it. Quaithe is telling Dany that she has to remember she's a Targaryen and the blood of the dragon. She should not be worried about making peace with the slavers or worry about the dragons causing damage because that is the nature of dragons and the dragons are part of her. How obvious can this be?

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Simple, baby swap. It's really not that hard. 

Otherwise whats the purpose of house Dayne? If i have to answer that then you all obviously havnt been paying attention. 

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany

Check out the list of evidence for why Dany is not who she thinks she is, then get back at me.

Ah, I see. Attitude + source = nope nope nope. Have a nice day.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, SerBronnsMullet said:

Quaithe's "remember who you are" is the easiest thing to interpret and you are truly a moron if you don't grasp it. Quaithe is telling Dany that she has to remember she's a Targaryen and the blood of the dragon. She should not be worried about making peace with the slavers or worry about the dragons causing damage because that is the nature of dragons and the dragons are part of her. How obvious can this be?

Just morbidly curious, how does the lemon tree and red door (Lemon-gate Theory) fit in? Seems to me that Quaithe is helping to reaffirm to her, like her memories, that she does not indeed know the truth about who she is. Also, who do you think Quaithe is, if any one of significance? I kinda like the Ashara Dayne theory but not totally convinced. I just havn't heard any other good theories yet. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 7/6/2017 at 2:01 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I don't remember but, on the fever dream Ned has it explicits states Jon as the person he's failing to protect? Because he starts having those dreams after Robert threats to kill Dany.

No and yes. He thinks of the promise me bit right after the Assassination plot is mentioned in council. Later in the cells, he thinks of broken promises (as theory goes) due to fact that yes, Robert did call it off on his death bed. But Eddard couldn't call it off in time before he him self was taken and thrown in Jail. I believe Varys being ubable to call them off is show only. Book wise i believe he's simply thrown into the cells before he can. The idea being that Jon is already safe in the North and has been for years. Ned dreams of the promise me, a dream not dreamed in a long time he says, only around Dany. I posted a link above that's worth checking out. The person who's post it is goes on to list evidence for Dany and all the weird things about her that dont add up. There are just way to many things to ignore but the post does a great job of collecting alot of them together. Such as Dany being able to speak Valyrian while her brother, uses the common tongue to speak in secret from the Dothraki, rather than Valyrian. Also Dany recalls Viserys telling her of a mid night flight from K.L. to Dragonstone, yet Jamie recalls them leaving in the early morning.  Just because a character says something in the books, everyone takes it for immediate fact. Martin even warns of faulty narrators and we should be mindful of where information is coming from. This is something Martin plays with to misdirect.

I support any questioning of Dany as the biggest mystery of all about her, is how Dany was able to hatch dragons, where so many Targaryens had failed before her. These are all the clues that i think lead up to that final question

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No and yes. He thinks of the promise me bit right after the Assassination plot is mentioned in council.

He does no such thing. Not during the council not afterwards; he is occupied with concerns for his and his daughters' safety and happy to leave KL, while upset for not solving Jon Arryn's murder or the attempt on Bran.

The bit about promises comes only later, on the way back from the brothel when he reminiscences about his promise to Barra, and Lyanna, and the promises to Lyanna are referred to as kept, plus a price he paid to keep them.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Later in the cells, he thinks of broken promises (as theory goes) due to fact that yes, Robert did call it off on his death bed. But Eddard couldn't call it off in time before he him self was taken and thrown in Jail. I believe Varys being ubable to call them off is show only. Book wise i believe he's simply thrown into the cells before he can.

“You mention children. Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenerys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once.”
“Alas,” said Varys. “At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown. But I shall do what I can, my lord. With your leave.” He bowed and vanished down the steps, his soft-soled slippers whispering against the stone as he made his descent.

 

So, yes Ned did call the assassination off. And in between his injury and Robert's return from the hunt, he never paid a single thought to Daenerys.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The idea being that Jon is already safe in the North and has been for years. Ned dreams of the promise me, a dream not dreamed in a long time he says, only around Dany.

The dream is two chapters later, and in between he thinks about Lyanna, Jon, and Rhaegar, which, curiously, is closely related to the subject of the dream (not to mention the circumstances of the promise to Barra echoing the promise to Lyanna, Jory's death etc), whereas Dany is related about as much as Faceless Men or everything else that happens in between. In fact, he spends more time remembering the mutilated corpses of Rhaegar's children and fearing for Cersei's children than worrying about Dany.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

how Dany was able to hatch dragons, where so many Targaryens had failed before her

How many Targaryens followed the family recipe of "fire and blood" to the letter? How many sacrificed a person with magical powers? How many were still raw from childbirth (if that played a role)? And how many did that with the red comet ahead? 

[mormont]

[mod] Folks: stay polite, and if you want to exchange personal messages that's what the personal messaging system is for. If you no longer want to interact with someone, then don't. [/mod]

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lew Theobald said:

Then there is the often overlooked fact that the rumor mill in Winterfell is that Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal tourney.  Which means that the washerwomen and cooks, and horse masters took one look at baby Jon and assumed that he was a good bit older than his half brother Robb.  

I have no recollection of this at all... Do you remember where you read it? 

[Frey family reunion]

44 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have no recollection of this at all... Do you remember where you read it? 

You have to piece it together from the rumors that were going around Winterfell:

First from Catelyn's POV

Quote

That cut deep.  Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers.  They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys' Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat.  And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea.  The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.  

So it is evident that the rumor around Winterfell is that Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne.  And while this quote seems to imply that the rumors of their  affair centers on it occurring after the tower of joy, Harwin seems to imply that the rumor mill had their affair happening much earlier.

Quote

"Aye, he told me.  Lady Ashara Dayne.  It's an old tale, that one.  I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now."  He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around.  "I doubt there's any truth to it.  But if there is, what of it?  When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor.  There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say?  Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that?  Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly.  "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea."  

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager.  She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning."  He shook his head.  "Let it lie, my lady.  They're dead, all of them.  Let it lie... and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

So here we have two rumors.  One that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother, and a second that Ned's affair with Ashara only occurred before he was betrothed to Cat.  So you add this up, and it appears that the rumors swirling around Winterfell is that Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal tourney.  

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lew Theobald said:

Not exactly, though of course I do recall the rumors that Ned & Ashara might have gotten hot and heavy at the Harrenhall tourney.  But I also must point out that I never said the words you ascribe to me.  I think you have confused me with another, and misascribed your quote.

Sorry. And I didn't really confuse you and @Frey family reunion, the quoter went wonky.

 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

You have to piece it together from the rumors that were going around Winterfell:

First from Catelyn's POV

So it is evident that the rumor around Winterfell is that Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne.  And while this quote seems to imply that the rumors of their  affair centers on it occurring after the tower of joy, Harwin seems to imply that the rumor mill had their affair happening much earlier.

So here we have two rumors.  One that Ashara Dayne was Jon's father, and a second that Ned's affair with Ashara only occurred before he was betrothed to Cat.  So you add this up, and it appears that the rumors swirling around Winterfell is that Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal tourney.  

Thank you! Yeah, I didn't remember Harwin/Arya convo.