Accomplices of Brandon

[Jaak]

What were they individually guilty of?

Kyle Royce

Jeffory Mallister

Elbert Arryn.

And the fathers. Unnamed except for Rickard... and except Elbert´s father, who was long dead. Leaving the Royce and Mallister fathers unnamed.

And Ethan was not killed.

What precisely was Ethan innocent of?

[Denam_Pavel]

Conspiracy to slay a royal. Ethan was just a squire that fell in with a bad lot. 

[Frey Kings]

Jojen Reed

Meera Reed

Hodor

Osha

Summer

ShaggyDog

3eyedraven

all guilty for not being the knee to the one true king of westeros

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Brandon did nothing wrong. Rhaegar kidnapped his sister and then as a true coward was hiding. Brandon had no other choice than go and look for his sister.

[Adam Yozza]

In Aerys mind? They were guilty of plotting to overthrow him and his family. In reality? Nothing. The guys who went to KL with Brandon were just his friends accompanying him when he went to try and save his sister from what he'd been led to believe was a kidnapping. They, and their father's died because of Aerys' paranoia and madness. And also because someone gave Brandon bad info.

Ethan might have survived either because he was just a squire and therefore obligated to follow Brandon, or because he was tortured until he confessed to something that wasn't true and Aerys spared him for it or maybe just because Aerys threw him in the cells and forgot about him.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

16 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Brandon did nothing wrong. Rhaegar kidnapped his sister and then as a true coward was hiding. Brandon had no other choice than go and look for his sister.

Agree, though I know this misses the point of the OP.  Still I love any and all reminders that Rhaegar isn't perfect, some people forget that on this site.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

In Aerys mind? They were guilty of plotting to overthrow him and his family. In reality? Nothing. The guys who went to KL with Brandon were just his friends accompanying him when he went to try and save his sister from what he'd been led to believe was a kidnapping. They, and their father's died because of Aerys' paranoia and madness. And also because someone gave Brandon bad info.

This. So very much!

Agree, though I know this misses the point of the OP.  Still I love any and all reminders that Rhaegar isn't perfect, some people forget that on this site.

Oh yes! The love the fandom has for Rhaegar is scary, his fans always find excuses for him.

He abandons Elia and his children and his fans clain that it was ok since he never loved her and he loved Lyanna.

He was hiding away when a war that he helped creating was raging in Westeros but that is ok since he appeared at the end and participated in one battle.

But my favorite part is that if/when Jon saves the world he will take the credit since he was the father. Which is absolute bs. Saying that Rhaegar was the one that is that *created* Jon is like saying that a sperm donor is the one that the world should thank if his biological son finds a cure that will save humanity. Ned was Jon’s father when it mattered; he raised him, loved him and even risked his life for him.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

15 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

This. So very much!

Oh yes! The love the fandom has for Rhaegar is scary, his fans always find excuses for him.

He abandons Elia and his children and his fans clain that it was ok since he never loved her and he loved Lyanna.

He was hiding away when a war that he helped creating was raging in Westeros but that is ok since he appeared at the end and participated in one battle.

But my favorite part is that if/when Jon saves the world he will take the credit since he was the father. Which is absolute bs. Saying that Rhaegar was the one that is that *created* Jon is like saying that a sperm donor is the one that the world should thank if his biological son finds a cure that will save humanity. Ned was Jon’s father when it mattered; he raised him, loved him and even risked his life for him.

Hallelujah and amen!  Not sure if you can see my signature line, but it basically addresses these same things.  Even if Rhaegar's little swimmers were absolutely needed to create Jon to save the world it still wouldn't absolve him of the Elia/Lyanna situation, and Ned will always be Jon's "real" father though Rhaegar may be his biological one.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

18 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Hallelujah and amen!  Not sure if you can see my signature line, but it basically addresses these same things.  Even if Rhaegar's little swimmers were absolutely needed to create Jon to save the world it still wouldn't absolve him of the Elia/Lyanna situation, and Ned will always be Jon's "real" father though Rhaegar may be his biological one.

I hadn't noticed your sig but know I agree with you. Rhaegar was only a sperm donor and nothing more.

You know what is the funny part? Rhaegar is cheating on Elia and abandons his children and he is the hero. Robert cheating on Cersei and doesn't spent time with his children and he is the villain.

[theMADdestScientist_]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Rhaegar was only a sperm donor and nothing more.

I don't blame people for not paying attention to every single detail, since there is so many. But, as much as you might dislike the character, Rhaegar was much more than a sperm donor.

 

When he said he needed to become a warrior, he was right. What he was wrong was the reason he thought he should become a warrior, he wasn't supposed to fight the white walkers, he was supposed to fight Robert Baratheon.

 

Why do you think Robert never went to the Tower of Joy despite the fact that he fought a war for Lyanna? because Rhaegar wounded him, and so, he was in no condition to travel. This made possible for Ned to arrive at King's Landing first, and when Robert finally came, Ned and Robert's friendship almost ended because of the sack.

Ned had to do all the rest by himself, he went to Storm's End(Robert's own seat), and he went he Tower of Joy, all without Robert.

 

If Robert had arrived at King's Landing first, he would have dealt with the situation way before Ned arrived, and so, Ned would have had no reason to complain about the sack, because he wasn't there in time to see anything, he would only hear about it.

Their friendship would have remained intact in this scenario, and they would have done all the rest together, including the trip to the Tower of Joy. I can't see Jon surviving if Robert comes to the Tower of Joy, so here is one thing you have Rhaegar to thank for.
 

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You know what is the funny part? Rhaegar is cheating on Elia and abandons his children and he is the hero. Robert cheating on Cersei and doesn't spent time with his children and he is the villain.

Now, this is a very black and white view.

My father has worked overseas for as long as i can remember, there were times i did not saw him for three months, nonetheless, my mother was always home, I never felt abandoned.

Rhaegar cheating on Elia is one thing, him leaving her on Dragonstone taking care of their children is another very different. Whatever he did later, he left his children with their mother, this is by no means abandonment. Also, remember, Ned did the same thing with Bran, despite the fact that Bran was in a coma, he left him with his mother and went south.

 

Truth is, at least here, Rhaegar and Robert were somewhat identical, they left their children at home with their wives, and went for another woman.

The difference is that Robert did it because it was in his nature, he enjoyed doing this, woman's are an instrument of pleasure to him. Rhaegar on the other hand, we have proof he did it once, with a noble woman, and unfortunately, that was enough to bring his death.

In hindsight, everything looks worse, especially when you don't have all the facts or when you never entered inside the heads of the characters involved.

 

[Lord Wraith]

On 7/6/2017 at 4:37 PM, Jaak said:

What were they individually guilty of?

Kyle Royce

Jeffory Mallister

Elbert Arryn.

And the fathers. Unnamed except for Rickard... and except Elbert´s father, who was long dead. Leaving the Royce and Mallister fathers unnamed.

And Ethan was not killed.

What precisely was Ethan innocent of?

Ethan broke and told Aerys about Southron Ambitions. Which is why he was spared, IMO.

[thranta flyer]

We don't actually know that he's cheating on Elia; that's just an assumption because we are used to monogamy being the norm.  There is precedent for Targs having more than one wife.  It's not overly common, but it's not unknown.  We just don't know that information, and there's that odd, partial conversation we get a glimpse of between Elia and Rhaegar where he's saying that their son Aegon is just one head of the dragon.  We also don't know for certain if Lyanna was carried off unwillingly or not.

It could be that Rhaegar proposed to Lyanna, they got hitched somewhere like on the Aisle of Faces, and they ran off together.  Lyanna could be just as much to blame as Rhaegar.  If they did run off together, I suspect that Lyanna was not dragged off unwillingly, so together she and Rhaegar are responsible for being the flashpoint that began the war.

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, thranta flyer said:

There is precedent for Targs having more than one wife.  It's not overly common, but it's not unknown. 

Not practiced for 200? 250 years or so.

From our perspective it would be Napoleon practicing polygamy having relevance for the situation today.

There is a very knowledgeable thread on the subject:

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Not practiced for 200? 250 years or so.

From our perspective it would be Napoleon practicing polygamy having relevance for the situation today.

Utter nonsense. For the Targs or for anyone else in Westeros, polygamy was never illegal, incest was and the Targs didn't cared.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

There is a very knowledgeable thread on the subject:

That is a thread from a Jon and Stark hater full of other Jon's haters.This however where you can find people who agree and people who disagree without being a hater is much better;

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

When he said he needed to become a warrior, he was right. What he was wrong was the reason he thought he should become a warrior, he wasn't supposed to fight the white walkers, he was supposed to fight Robert Baratheon.

He however didn't wanted to be warrior in order to be exterminated by fight Robert. He thought that he was tptwp. The fact that he ended up being killed in a battle means that he was right.

5 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Why do you think Robert never went to the Tower of Joy despite the fact that he fought a war for Lyanna? because Rhaegar wounded him, and so, he was in no condition to travel. This made possible for Ned to arrive at King's Landing first, and when Robert finally came, Ned and Robert's friendship almost ended because of the sack.

Ned had to do all the rest by himself, he went to Storm's End(Robert's own seat), and he went he Tower of Joy, all without Robert.

Robert had fought for a year, from the fact that Rhaegar had never participated in a war and had died in the only battle he fought its much more possible that Robert was wounded before the battle or by someone else. After all he was healthy enough to sent his maester to Barri.

5 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

My father has worked overseas for as long as i can remember, there were times i did not saw him for three months, nonetheless, my mother was always home, I never felt abandoned.

Rhaegar cheating on Elia is one thing, him leaving her on Dragonstone taking care of their children is another very different. Whatever he did later, he left his children with their mother, this is by no means abandonment. Also, remember, Ned did the same thing with Bran, despite the fact that Bran was in a coma, he left him with his mother and went south.

I also have relatives that are sailors and their journeys can last even for a year but they never abandoned their families. Rhaegar did. Rhaegar left his wife and children at the house of his lunatic father. If he cared about them he could first sent them to a safe place, Dorne, and then eloping with Lyanna.

5 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Truth is, at least here, Rhaegar and Robert were somewhat identical, they left their children at home with their wives, and went for another woman.

When exactly Robert eloped with a woman and left his wife and children at the hands of his lunatic father?

5 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Rhaegar on the other hand, we have proof he did it once, with a noble woman, and unfortunately, that was enough to bring his death.

So being a noble woman makes cheating ok? Because it was cheating, it doesn't matter how many women there were it was cheating.

[TMIFairy]

20 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So being a noble woman makes cheating ok? Because it was cheating, it doesn't matter how many women there were it was cheating.

Yup, Rheagar was a first class arsehole act.

An arrogant - "I want's it I takes it" crazy git so full of his own shit that it sloshed and spilled.

An marital cheater too!

[BalerionTheCat]

18 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Oh yes! The love the fandom has for Rhaegar is scary, his fans always find excuses for him.

He abandons Elia and his children and his fans clain that it was ok since he never loved her and he loved Lyanna.

He was hiding away when a war that he helped creating was raging in Westeros but that is ok since he appeared at the end and participated in one battle.

I know it looks bad for Rhaegar. But I believe, I'm not sure, but I believe, GRRM story requests he did everything, understanding at some point the horror and consequences of it. The price to pay. Lyanna knowing too IMO. To me, it looks like Mirri Maz Duur words: "death for life". Even if I don't like the concept of sacrifice. But IMO Jon's birth had to be paid. By Lyanna, her brother, her father. By Rhaegar, his wife, his children, his father. By the Kingsguards. By the rebellion.

I don't know how he came to think or know that. But I believe he knew:

When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.

Ok, he could be just an asshole. But IMO it would decrease GRRM story and Jon status.

[Victor Newman]

Those thugs rode into the red keep and threatened to kill Prince Rhaegar.  They got what they deserved.

I love the Targaryens but I don't like Rhaegar.  Even so the royal family cannot allow these men to come in and threaten to murder the son of House Targaryen without repercussions.  Those boys were stupid to come to KL and make those threats.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I know it looks bad for Rhaegar. But I believe, I'm not sure, but I believe, GRRM story requests he did everything, understanding at some point the horror and consequences of it. The price to pay. Lyanna knowing too IMO. To me, it looks like Mirri Maz Duur words: "death for life". Even if I don't like the concept of sacrifice. But IMO Jon's birth had to be paid. By Lyanna, her brother, her father. By Rhaegar, his wife, his children, his father. By the Kingsguards. By the rebellion.

I don't know how he came to think or know that. But I believe he knew:

When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.

Ok, he could be just an asshole. But IMO it would decrease GRRM story and Jon status.

Being the son of a crappy sperm donor would had something to add at Ned's actions to endanger himself and his family in order to save his nephew. One *father* was an arrogant man who abandoned his wife and children at the hands of his lunatic father and hide away because he was a coward and the *other* father had loved, raised and endanger himself for a child that wasn’t even his. The two fathers would had been the polar opposite.

[Jaak]

On 7.7.2017 at 11:47 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Brandon did nothing wrong. Rhaegar kidnapped his sister and then as a true coward was hiding. Brandon had no other choice than go and look for his sister.

Yet there are legal principles which could justify some of the stuff Aerys did. Like the law of cutting off the hand of anyone who strikes a royal, regardless of cause - not heard used but heard quoted.

Even Starks with their honour will quote laws in their behalf. Robb said that Greatjon was "no doubt drawing his knife just to cut meat" - but he does quote law declaring it a capital crime to draw a blade at him.

Brandon HAD himself accepted a challenge from his inferior - fought Petyr, a petty noble, and even took off his armour to match Petyr's lack.

But Petyr was a 15 year old without military reputation against 20 year old Brandon - Brandon expected to win and show off his personal superiority.

Would even Brandon have accepted a challenge from a 30 year old Bronn for Catelyn's hand? And what else could he have done on face of such a challenge?

What might have been an option was present himself to Aerys as a humble petitioner and point out that Rhaegaer was dishonouring the marriage Aerys had himself arranged for Rhaegaer. How would Aerys have reacted?