How was the Mountain able to rape and pillage the RL so easily??

[Stormking902]

I mean he has a few hundred men tops and was able to go villiage to villiage destroying everything in his path with no retaliation at all but how?? When Ned sent Dondarion after the Mountain he seemed to have no problems tracking him wouldnt the Riverlords be able to track him much quicker?? Also the Riverlords are not stupid they know who is attacking them and they dont set a trap? The Mountain is rash and doesnt think things thru especially when hes angry a man like this is easily pushed into a trap. 

[Adam Yozza]

1 minute ago, Stormking902 said:

I mean he has a few hundred men tops and was able to go villiage to villiage destroying everything in his path with no retaliation at all but how?? When Ned sent Dondarion after the Mountain he seemed to have no problems tracking him wouldnt the Riverlords be able to track him much quicker?? Also the Riverlords are not stupid they know who is attacking them and they dont set a trap? The Mountain is rash and doesnt think things thru especially when hes angry a man like this is easily pushed into a trap. 

They couldn't. He's a bannerman to Tywin Lannister and they need permission from the King (or the King's Hand) to do anything (I presume)

[aryagonnakill#2]

The reason as given in the text is that the Mountain did a quick raid at first and then retreated to the Westerlands.  Dondarion tracked him to the border of the Westerlands and crossed a river and there was ambushed by Tywins entire force.  Tywin then moved through the southern Riverlands and defeated all the riverlords there 1 at a time, and in so doing took essentially no losses and as completely destroyed their forces. 

This is mainly contributed to Hoster being on his death bed and Edmure being very indecisive, but its also 1 of the many kinda ridiculous aspects of Tywins miraculous campaign.  All those lords would've called their banners and had strongly garrisoned castles, which Tywin would've taken losses to capture.

There is also Roose.  He never does anything with his force until Tywin moves to Kings Landing.  He holds his force east of the Trident and north of the crossing, combined with Robb taking his force West, and Edmure just sitting in Riverrun, and there were no forces out to fight the Mountain, and he was raiding keeps and towns where the forces had already been defeated.

[DarkBastard]

If I remember correctly (I don't have my notes with me), Gregor was able to ambush and defeat Dondarrion leading to his first death and subsequent resurrection by Thoros.  That seems both tactical and strategic in nature.  Sure, he was a hothead and rash in most respects, but perhaps not with reckless abandon.  

I believe his relatively small force made for more successful guerrilla tactics to terrorize the towns and villages of the Riverlands with speed and versatility, able to evade a large force from Riverrun if necessary.  Ned dispatched a similarly sized force to engage him, likely for the same reason.

Again, going off memory here...correct me if I'm wrong!

DB

[Coolbeard the Exile]

21 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

I mean he has a few hundred men tops and was able to go villiage to villiage destroying everything in his path with no retaliation at all but how?? When Ned sent Dondarion after the Mountain he seemed to have no problems tracking him wouldnt the Riverlords be able to track him much quicker?? Also the Riverlords are not stupid they know who is attacking them and they dont set a trap? The Mountain is rash and doesnt think things thru especially when hes angry a man like this is easily pushed into a trap. 

Him and his crew are a hard bunch and most castles and villages were hardly garrisoned. Also people are terrified of THE MOUNTAIN so that is a big fear factor and they are roaming around on horses and are very quick.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The reason as given in the text is that the Mountain did a quick raid at first and then retreated to the Westerlands.  Dondarion tracked him to the border of the Westerlands and crossed a river and there was ambushed by Tywins entire force.  Tywin then moved through the southern Riverlands and defeated all the riverlords there 1 at a time, and in so doing took essentially no losses and as completely destroyed their forces. 

This is mainly contributed to Hoster being on his death bed and Edmure being very indecisive, but its also 1 of the many kinda ridiculous aspects of Tywins miraculous campaign.  All those lords would've called their banners and had strongly garrisoned castles, which Tywin would've taken losses to capture.

There is also Roose.  He never does anything with his force until Tywin moves to Kings Landing.  He holds his force east of the Trident and north of the crossing, combined with Robb taking his force West, and Edmure just sitting in Riverrun, and there were no forces out to fight the Mountain, and he was raiding keeps and towns where the forces had already been defeated.

That's, uh, not accurate.

The King's men were ambushed by Gregor at the Mummer's Ford, which is in the central RL along the Red Fork of the Trident.

“But Gregor was waiting for us at the Mummer’s Ford, with men concealed on both banks. As we crossed he fell upon us from front and rear.”

But to answer the OP, Karyl Vance and Marq Piper were able to leading raiding parties on active armies who had scouts, guards, and outriders. How hard do you think it would be to start that in peacetime with little to no intelligence for the defenders to a act off of.

[DarkBastard]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's, uh, not accurate.

The King's men were ambushed by Gregor at the Mummer's Ford, which is in the central RL along the Red Fork of the Trident.

“But Gregor was waiting for us at the Mummer’s Ford, with men concealed on both banks. As we crossed he fell upon us from front and rear.”

That's what I thought!  My old brain is still working!  (Yes, I'm a dork and have to write notes to remember things...this world is vast!)

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, DarkBastard said:

That's what I thought!  My old brain is still working!  (Yes, I'm a dork and have to write notes to remember things...this world is vast!)

asearchoficeandfire.com or the wiki help me out. If you're OCD enough to look shit up every time eventually you start remembering it.

[DarkBastard]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

asearchoficeandfire.com or the wiki help me out. If you're OCD enough to look shit up every time eventually you start remembering it.

Ah, I have used those in the past.  I also pulled the text of all the books into word documents so I can look up source material...and keep handwritten notes on theories, interesting tidbits I want to research, and ideas as I re-read them.  the timeline seems to trip me up sometimes...TWOIAF has helped a lot with that.

DB

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

Ah, I have used those in the past.  I also pulled the text of all the books into word documents so I can look up source material...and keep handwritten notes on theories, interesting tidbits I want to research, and ideas as I re-read them.  the timeline seems to trip me up sometimes...TWOIAF has helped a lot with that.

DB

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

And just to clarify, I am OCD enough to look shit up almost every time.

[Stormking902]

You would think once the Riverlands was attacked the first time the Riverlords would ALL call there banners especially since Vance and Piper strongly theorized that the Mountain was behind the attacks, once all the Banners were called a strong Garrison would be placed on the boarder of the Westerlands making the Mountains retreat almost immpossible and prevent Tywins main force from crossing into the RL un challenged. Even a light garrison at any castle/stronghold should  at least give Tywin a runny nose but we here of no defense pretty much at all. Good thing Edmures 15 year old nephew was there to bail him out lol or Tywin would have what I call a FLAWLESS victorys.......

[Clegane'sPup]

Tywin had three groups roaming around causing havoc.

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IX      "Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork."     "They will burn, my lord," Ser Kevan said, rising. "I shall give the commands." He bowed and made for the door.

The lords of the Trident sought an audience with the King and ended up talking with Eddard.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XI     "The lords of the Trident keep the king's peace," Ser Raymun Darry said. "The Lannisters have broken it. We ask leave to answer them, steel for steel. We ask justice for the smallfolk of Sherrer and Wendish Town and the Mummer's Ford."

"Edmure agrees, we must pay Gregor Clegane back his bloody coin," Ser Marq declared, "but old Lord Hoster commanded us to come here and beg the king's leave before we strike."

Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he'd sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage—and Ned did not doubt that he had—he'd taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand.

Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king's peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.       Grand Maester Pycelle was on his feet again. "My lord Hand, if these good folk believe that Ser Gregor has forsaken his holy vows for plunder and rape, let them go to his liege lord and make their complaint. These crimes are no concern of the throne. Let them seek Lord Tywin's justice."

I get a bit confused with this because in that same Eddard chapter he sends out Beric and 40 (?) men to deal with Gregor. I’m not sure people understood that they were dealing with three groups because the Tyrion chapter takes place after the Eddard chapter.  Plus it’s not revealed until later that Pycelle is very much a Lannister man. I mention Pycelle because he is in charge of the ravens.

Tywin let Gregor loose from CR because Cat snatched Tyrion, right?    I’m asking.

[giant snake]

It is one of the more hard to believe aspects of the story.  The routiers that Gregor's army are based off of were professional soldiers, not bannermen, and they were exploiting generations of war and devastation.  The motivation for their actions was to institute a protection racket.  When a King or commander was leading chevauchee as part of war policy, it was to damage his enemy's prestige or to provoke him into battle under unfavorable conditions, not for the act itself.

 

The part that really sticks out to me is how he is able to get away with it so easily and quickly.  So the Riverlands are both wealthy and populous, but they are completely helpless against a small army riding around?  I don't buy it.  Logistically, there is no way that Robb is marching around with even a significant fraction of the Riverland's military age male population.  Of course we aren't given exact numbers, so maybe they are leading Napoleonic sized armies or more, but I seriously doubt it.

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Tywin had three groups roaming around causing havoc.

Catelyn takes Tyrion prisoner at the crossroads inn (Chaper 28, Catelyn V). Ned is wounded in the streets of KL (35, Eddard IX). Jaime retreats to CR and raises a host, to which Edmure sends Lords Vance and Piper to guard near the Golden Tooth (40, Catelyn VII). Tywin sends Gregor to raid villages and provoke Ned. The wounded Ned remains in KL, however, and instead sends Beric to deal with Gregor (43, Eddard XI). Jaime wins at the Golden Tooth (55, Catelyn VIII) and continues on to Riverrun, where he captures Edmure (56, Tyrion VII). Separately, Tywin and Kevan lead a second Lannister host which conquers much of the riverlands (56, Tyrion VII). Jaime is captured in the Whispering Wood (63, Catelyn X) and Robb saves Riverrun in the Battle of the Camps (69, Tyrion IX). Deciding to make Harrenhal his base for the campaign, Tywin sends Gregor/Amory/Vargo to burn the riverlands (69, Tyrion IX). 

[DarkBastard]

3 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Catelyn takes Tyrion prisoner at the crossroads inn (Chaper 28, Catelyn V). Ned is wounded in the streets of KL (35, Eddard IX). Jaime retreats to CR and raises a host, to which Edmure sends Lords Vance and Piper to guard near the Golden Tooth (40, Catelyn VII). Tywin sends Gregor to raid villages and provoke Ned. The wounded Ned remains in KL, however, and instead sends Beric to deal with Gregor (43, Eddard XI). Jaime wins at the Golden Tooth (55, Catelyn VIII) and continues on to Riverrun, where he captures Edmure (56, Tyrion VII). Separately, Tywin and Kevan lead a second Lannister host which conquers much of the riverlands (56, Tyrion VII). Jaime is captured in the Whispering Wood (63, Catelyn X) and Robb saves Riverrun in the Battle of the Camps (69, Tyrion IX). Deciding to make Harrenhal his base for the campaign, Tywin sends Gregor/Amory/Vargo to burn the riverlands (69, Tyrion IX). 

Nittanian - you literally beat me to this by 10 seconds!!  Exactly as you said, two separate engagements, before Ned was captured it was just Gregor and his band of miscreants, later came Vargo and Amory.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Nittanian is correct, the problem is Gregor is not the main threat, Tywin has called his banners because of Cat, the Tullys know their danger and call their own banners to Riverrun stripping much of the defence close to the border except the golden tooth which is reinforced.

This makes sense as they want their power concentrated to counter Tywins army should he invade, the wild card is Gregor he is unchivalrous and commiting war crimes which is somewhat unexpected.  To counter this Ed dispersed his strenght along the border to defend every inch of the riverlands.  The problem being that they have to play by the rules and cant chase Gregor into the Westerland as he is posing as brigand.

Events move on Bobby dies and Tywin invades with 2 large forces smashing the divided defenders who can't rally quickly enough.

[Trigger Warning]

Wasn't Beric just riding to Gregor's keep?
 

Also there'd be confusion and chaos, it would have to go from local knights to their lords and so on, someone would have to raise a sufficient force and by the time they do the raiders probably wouldn't even be in their lands anymore or retreating to the west.

Even if you can track them you'll probably never catch up with them, basically why cavalry is used for raiding.

[The Mountain That Flies]

14 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Wasn't Beric just riding to Gregor's keep?
 

Also there'd be confusion and chaos, it would have to go from local knights to their lords and so on, someone would have to raise a sufficient force and by the time they do the raiders probably wouldn't even be in their lands anymore or retreating to the west.

Even if you can track them you'll never catch up with them, basically why cavalry is used for raiding.

100% correct on the second and third bits, but I doubt Beric was riding for Castle Clegane (or whatever its proper name is). IIRC it sits pretty deep in the Westerlands, and even during perfect peacetime Tywin wouldn't allow a group of Stormlanders and Northmen to just waltz around dispensing justice on his lands.

Since Gregor was technically passing as a brigand at that point, the plan was to capture him in the field and bring him to King's Landing to face justice.

[Trigger Warning]

2 minutes ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

100% correct on the second and third bits, but I doubt Beric was riding for Castle Clegane (or whatever its proper name is). IIRC it sits pretty deep in the Westerlands, and even during perfect peacetime I doubt Tywin would allow a group of Stormlanders and Northmen to just waltz around dispensing justice on his lands.

Since Gregor was technically passing as a brigand at that point, the plan was to capture him in the field and bring him to King's Landing to face justice.

"I charge you to ride to the westlands with all haste, to cross the Red Fork of the Trident under the king’s flag, and there bring the king’s justice to the false knight Gregor Clegane, and to all those who shared in his crimes. I denounce him, and attaint him, and strip him of all rank and titles, of all lands and incomes and holdings, and do sentence him to death. May the gods take pity on his soul" 

Because of this I and since the Mummer's Ford is along the Red Fork I always assumed they were riding for the Golden Tooth and taking the most typical (and expected) route. It at least seems that Ned had expected Gregor to be in the Westerlands by now and as such maybe not still in the field. 

[snow is the man]

Do you mean before rob fought tywin or afterwards. But I'll take a shot at it. The mountain attacked weak targets not heavily defended area's. Burning down villages isn't hard when you have a well armed and well equipped unit who has at least so measure of skill. And remember what ned said about edmure. Edmure would try to protect everyone and spread his forces out very weakly and tywin would know that. And just remember they weren't attacking places like riverrun but small villages and the occasional holdfast that is not well manned and often the mountain and his ilk would just burn it down rather then try to take it. Now as for beric and thoro's fighting the mountain they walked into an ambush. The mountain may be hot headed but he could plan a simple ambush. But he could be pulled into an attack easily once the fighting started.