283/4AC - Ned goes home

[TMIFairy]

If this was covered somewhere please point to pertinent thread.

What exactly were Ned's movements after the Sack?

I understand that he went to Storm's End to lift the siege, then to the Tower of Joy, Starfall and ... and then what?

Did he show up in KL on his way to Winterfell? Did he have a baby with him then?

Or is the next thing we know of his movements after Starfall - "Ned is in Winterfell with Jon and Wylla"?

ADDED LATER FOR CLARITY:

What do the books say?

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

My assumption has always been that he took Jon to Starfall where he employed Wylla as wet nurse and took a ship to the north travelling onto WF by horse once they landed. 

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

My assumption has always been that he took Jon to Starfall where he employed Wylla as wet nurse and took a ship to the north travelling onto WF by horse once they landed. 

Any book quotes to support your assumption or is this pure conjecture?

[Lord Vance II]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

My assumption has always been that he took Jon to Starfall where he employed Wylla as wet nurse and took a ship to the north travelling onto WF by horse once they landed. 

 

36 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Any book quotes to support your assumption or is this pure conjecture?

Pretty sure he's right, or close enough as not to matter. We know Ned took Dawn back to Starfall, Wylla's wetnursing is somehow involved, and it's way easier to sail back to the North than go by land. Supposedly him and Robert were still not speaking, so he probably didn't stop in KL on his way back. Presumably Howland was around the whole time, or he took off for the Neck when Ned headed for Starfall.

[kissdbyfire]

But Ned and Robert made peace in their shared grief over Lyanna's death, right? That makes me think he made at least one stop in KL to give Robert the news.

It's never spelled out, and they may have made their peace long afterwards or even not in person. But for some reason, the quote below always makes me think they did meet in KL. 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II 

The king frowned. "A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it."

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

[Lord Vance II]

This isn't based on anything, but I kind of figured they didn't fully reconcile until they had to deal with the Greyjoy Rebellion. I imagine in their hearts they were ok, but didn't like face-to-face deal with it. 

On the other hand, he seems to have spent a good deal of time in Starfall, so it may have been long enough to get together on his way North. 

[TMIFairy]

So, was there a stopover at KL or not?

If not, then Eddard could just as well had taken a ship along the West Coast.

The sailing distance from SF to White Harbour or Barrowton is more or less the same, with the western route making it easier to return Dustin's horse.

[TMIFairy]

8 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

This isn't based on anything, but I kind of figured they didn't fully reconcile until they had to deal with the Greyjoy Rebellion. I imagine in their hearts they were ok, but didn't like face-to-face deal with it.

So - pure conjecture ...

[Lord Vance II]

Just now, TMIFairy said:

So - pure conjecture ...

We're only told so much. Presumably because it doesn't matter much. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

This isn't based on anything, but I kind of figured they didn't fully reconcile until they had to deal with the Greyjoy Rebellion. I imagine in their hearts they were ok, but didn't like face-to-face deal with it. 

On the other hand, he seems to have spent a good deal of time in Starfall, so it may have been long enough to get together on his way North. 

But wasn't Ned present at Robert's wedding to Cersei?

[Lord Vance II]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But wasn't Ned present at Robert's wedding to Cersei?

You'd think so, but I can't find any reference to him being there. Ned's beef with Jaime and Tywin's handling of the end game may have contributed. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

You'd think so, but I can't find any reference to him being there. Ned's beef with Jaime and Tywin's handling of the end game may have contributed. 

Yeah, I suppose I just assumed he'd been present, because I can't find any references either.

[TMIFairy]

So we have Ned in Starfall (a conjecture based upon his return of Dawn, which is (?) mentioned in the books somewhere) and then we have him in WF with Jon?

With all routes and modes of transport - east coast by ship, west coast by ship, overland, mix - being possible?

 

 

[Lord Vance II]

If you're that concerned about what the books actually say about Ned's trip back north, you could always, you know, actually check the book.

[TMIFairy]

I was curious and wanted a quick answer.

As nobody knows I can now claim that Ned picked Jon up, buying him off his "fisherman's daughter" mother, at the Sisters.

And nobody can prove otherwise.

Wylla's presence at WF is just what Edric tells us, isn't it?

 

[Lord Vance II]

3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

As nobody knows I can now claim that Ned picked Jon up, buying him off his "fisherman's daughter" mother, at the Sisters.

So Ned "bought" a kid of some random woman in the Sisters to have a fake bastard son just for shits and giggles? What would that accomplish other than make himself look bad? To stand in for a child that no one knows existed? If Ned was a totally different character than the one in the books maybe. 

[TMIFairy]

8 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

So Ned "bought" a kid of some random woman in the Sisters to have a fake bastard son just for shits and giggles? What would that accomplish other than make himself look bad? To stand in for a child that no one knows existed? If Ned was a totally different character than the one in the books maybe. 

It was his kid, his bastard. Lord Godric Borrell, the Lord of the Sisters, says so.

 

[Lord Vance II]

Well I guess you're right, no one can prove that didn't happen. I mean, it almost certainly didn't. But don't let that stop you. 

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I was curious and wanted a quick answer.

As nobody knows I can now claim that Ned picked Jon up, buying him off his "fisherman's daughter" mother, at the Sisters.

And nobody can prove otherwise.

Wylla's presence at WF is just what Edric tells us, isn't it?

 

We learn from Cat that when she arrives in Winterfell w/ Robb, Jon was already there w/ a wet nurse, but she never names the woman. It could be Wylla, it could be someone else. We also know there was at least one other person at the ToJ besides Howland Reed. Again, this other person could be Wylla, and it could be someone else.

Edric Dayne simply tells Arya that he and Jon are milk brothers because Jon's "mum" Wylla was his (Edric's) wet nurse.

And sure, you can say whatever the hell you want w/ no backup from the text and even if it's completely illogical; there's plenty of such claims being made all the time. What it will achieve, however, is completely beyond me. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Any book quotes to support your assumption or is this pure conjecture?

Yes complete conjecture, hence my use of the word assumption. It is however simply the most logical route for Ned to have taken. Travelling with a newborn is rough; you want to do it in as much comfort as possible and a ship provides far more of that than horseback and camping. Especially through post war-ravaged lands which would be low on supplies and where the women may be reluctant to trust a couple of men travelling with a baby and so might not be very generous with their breasts.

 And whilst Jon can very feasibly be at the ToJ without a wet nurse, as his mother was alive up to the point Ned arrived, and the trip to Starfall is not so far that he'd starve nor so unpopulated a region and indeed the war didn't really touch Dorne so not so afraid of strange men, that he couldn't find a few villages with mothers who are lactating to beg for a feed, or goats at the very least.

But he can not be on a journey of several weeks maybe even a couple of months (over land) without one. So we know that he must have picked up a wet nurse at some point. The logical guess is Starfall. Given that: - We know Wylla was a wet nurse in the employ of House Dayne, and we know Ned Dayne thinks she is Jon's mother, and that Ned gives her name to Robert. So we can assume that there is no smoke without fire and Wylla has indeed at some point been known to Ned and nursed Jon.

We also know that Robb arrived at WF with Catelyn after Jon and Ned, so they got home faster than her even though she was approximately half the distance from WF than they were at Starfall, which is where he would have had the ability to send a raven from to RiverRun to tell Hoster that the war is over and it is safe to send Catelyn (under  guard) and his new son home.  So we know Ned likely did travel by boat as otherwise to arrive before cat seems highly unlikely!  

Though we know Jon had a Wet nurse when Catelyn arrived we do not know this woman was Wylla, I think tbh it is unlikely as Cat would surely have noted the wet nurse was Dornish? especially given her suspicions of Ashara having been Jon's mother. And the fact she knew Ned had been to Starfall after killing Ser Arthur Dayne. So I think it likely that whilst Wylla accompanied Ned and Jon by ship to Barrowtown where he returns Lord Dustin's horse and travels by land to WF. At which point he engages a local wet nurse and sends Wylla back south to return to Starfall. 

It's just the most logical conclusion. 

Whereas if you want to claim Jon is the Fishermans Daughter, he needs to travel to Sweet Sister to find the fisherman's daughter who he presumably made love to at the very beginning of the rebellion. This would involve circumnavigating around the entire of Dorne from Starfall, past Tarth, and Shipbreaker bay,  past Dragonstone, and right up around the Fingers before landing at Sweet Sister and spending a few days locating this woman, whom he does not actually know he impregnated (Think about it, how after a one night stand would she have got word to Ned who was dashing around the continent fighting a war, that she was pregnant? What other possible reason would he have to go so far out of his way to see her if he did not have any way to know she had given birth to his son.) before setting off once more to presumably white Harbour where he travels over land to Barrowtown, returns Lord Dustins horse then up to Winterfell with Jon and his wet nurse; who one now has to presume he picked up in Sisterton, so has a Vale accent, which again cat would recognise.

So he sends this one away again let's say, now how does Ned arrive in WF before Cat & Robb given this enormously longer journey? And why take such a long journey with a horse you plan on returning to Lady Dustin when it involves a much longer boat trip passing the notorious shipbreaker bay (horse and boats don't mix too well) and at least one change of ship at Sisterton, because he has to take a few days onshore at least to locate this fisherman's daughter.  

Not to mention how on earth you could pass Jon off as younger than Robb, given this intercourse with the fishermans daughter has to have taken place about a year previously at the very beginning of the war, when Ned was travelling to Wf to raise his banners, making Jon about 3-4 months old when Ned collects him. And Robb has only been born a few weeks previously? I mean have you ever seen a 4-month-old? there is NO mistaking it for a newborn. Which also leads onto why on earth fuck your new marriage by pretending you cheated if the baby is in fact from a liaison before the marriage with someone as low born as some fisherman's daughter from the Sisters?

Next ask yourself how Jon can be 3-4 months older than Robb who was born at the very end of the rebellion ( we also know his conception as Cat tells us she conceived him on their wedding night, which happened about 3 months into the rebellion at Riverrun) and still be 8-9 months older than Dany who we know was conceived the night before the sack of KL, as Jaime gave us the account of her conception through marital rape. So we know her birth occurred approximately 9 months after the sack. Which means by all logic means Jon's birth occurred around the time of the sack. Otherwise, he'd be 11-13 months older than her.  And Robb's birth must have happened a week or two maximum before the sack. Given that Ned says Jon is younger and Cat can't tell if he is fractionally younger or fractionally older. Which means they are no more than a week or two as an absolute limit apart in age.