Wicked Woodpecker of West Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Well OK, so I've got this problem. I'm a reader of Polish AGoT re-read problem and authors took some time to show differences between original text and Polish translation. And while some are blatant mistakes - like Waymar Royce who's house change from having "too many heirs" to "too many ancestors", some are more puzzling like terrifying amount of numeric mistakes or whole sections of text moved or removed from Jaime and Cersei's talk in Bran II. Polish translation by Pawel Kruk was made in 1998, while A Game of Thrones was published in 1996, so it seems Kruk should have proper novel as printed to translate not some half-assed manuscripts (which could happen with TWoW now, but then there was no such pressure on a Martin publishers in Poland.). So my question is - are there any differences between 1996 printed edition of A Game of Thrones and later editions? Like moving people's age around (Ned from 32 to 35, Viserys from 20 to 22, reducing numbers of Dareon I army in story about his conquest). For instance is there a mention of Cersei having some vision-dreams and taking faith in them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, Wicked Woodpecker of West said: Well OK, so I've got this problem. I'm a reader of Polish AGoT re-read problem and authors took some time to show differences between original text and Polish translation. And while some are blatant mistakes - like Waymar Royce who's house change from having "too many heirs" to "too many ancestors", some are more puzzling like terrifying amount of numeric mistakes or whole sections of text moved or removed from Jaime and Cersei's talk in Bran II. Polish translation by Pawel Kruk was made in 1998, while A Game of Thrones was published in 1996, so it seems Kruk should have proper novel as printed to translate not some half-assed manuscripts (which could happen with TWoW now, but then there was no such pressure on a Martin publishers in Poland.). So my question is - are there any differences between 1996 printed edition of A Game of Thrones and later editions? Like moving people's age around (Ned from 32 to 35, Viserys from 20 to 22, reducing numbers of Dareon I army in story about his conquest). For instance is there a mention of Cersei having some vision-dreams and taking faith in them? Are you familiar with Ogień i Lód forums? They have a great thread listing all translation mistakes. And yes, Michał Jakuszewski's translation (HBO series tie-in edition) is much better. At last we have Winterfell, not Zimopad. Sadly there are many mistakes, but they're not that bad and obvious. Latest page of that thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Hilarious - two Polish guys writing to one another in English. OK - count me in as number three Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Sometimes whole passages of text were ommited - for example Old Nan's tale about The Long Night. I've listed many on my blog, The Amber Compendium - when dealing with symbolism it's important to get the facts right. https://theambercompendium.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/the-bloodstone-emperor-azor-ahai-complete/ Some examples: Quote ‘Martyn Cassel zginął razem z innymi. Później Ned zburzył wieżę, a z jej skrwawionych kamieni kazał usypać usypać osiem kopców. Podobno wcześniej Rhaegar nazywał tamto miejsce Wieżą Radości, lecz dla Neda stanowiła ona gorzkie wspomnienia. Walczyli siedmiu przeciwko trzem, lecz tylko dwóm udało się przebić. Byli to Eddard Stark i mały wyspiarz Howland Reed. Ned uznał, że ponowny powrót snu po tylu latach nie wróży nic dobrego.’ (Eddard X, Gra o tron) (przyp.tłum. Oryginalna wersja tego fragmentu: ‘Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.’ (Eddard X, A Game of Thrones) Ned nie ‘każe usypać ośmiu kopców’ tylko sam to robi, Ned i Howland nie ‘przebijają się’, lecz ‘przeżywają, aby móc odjechać’. W tłumaczeniu znika również grań/krawędź/grzbiet (org.ridge) na której Ned buduje osiem kopców. Ned stawia osiem kopców, które w oryginale określa słowo ‘cairn’, czyli rodzaj grobu przykrytego kupką kamieni, spotykanego głównie w Szkocjihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairn ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 The translation does seem to be a bit rough. Kopiec? Już lepiej kopczyk lub kurhanik ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: Hilarious - two Polish guys writing to one another in English. OK - count me in as number three Well, there are some folks on this very forum who don't seem to like me using languages that aren't English. I have neither the time nor the will to argue with them again, so out of convenience I'll use English. Anyway, IMO it's good that ASOIAF generates this problem with translations... Only really good and respected novels have fans who care about such details (Will Shakespeare, JRRT - LOTR had so many translations...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 minute ago, TMIFairy said: The translation does seem to be a bit rough. Kopiec? Już lepiej kopczyk lub kurhanik ... IMO 'kopiec' works just fine as 'cairn'. 'Kurhan' would fit 'barrow'. 'Kopiec' makes me think of Kościuszko's Kopiec at Kraków, a hero's grave, just like TOJ. Another thing that I really hate is 'wyspiarze' as 'crannogmen'. Because there is such word as 'krannog' in Polish, so there's no need to create some weird 'Islanders of the Neck'... They don't live on islands, but on crannogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Woodpecker of West Posted July 10, 2017 Author Share Posted July 10, 2017 Quote Are you familiar with Ogień i Lód forums? They have a great thread listing all translation mistakes Indeed. IIRC I also give some examples there few years ago. ^^' My thread was inspired by discussion on DaeL's site. Quote And yes, Michał Jakuszewski's translation (HBO series tie-in edition) is much better. At last we have Winterfell, not Zimopad. But HBO tie-in edition is still Kruk's. Jakuszewski was allowed to correct some elements, but as he admited on last year Kapitularz convent the publishers did not give him enough time to make true correct or his own translation. Others are his own from beginning. Also I'm quite sure there were no Zimopad in Kruk's book. XD BTW the question whether to translate castle's names is quite valid in my opinion with King's Landing or Highgarden being translated, while Casterly Rock or Winterfell left in original form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Woodpecker of West Posted July 10, 2017 Author Share Posted July 10, 2017 Quote Another thing that I really hate is 'wyspiarze' as 'crannogmen'. Because there is such word as 'krannog' in Polish, so there's no need to create some weird 'Islanders of the Neck'... They don't live on islands, but on crannogs... It's not even translation just transliteration of English crannog, so no I would not count it as a Polish word. And 99% of people never heard it. Maybe some variant of "ostrow" would pass, although "ostrow" is a river island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 14 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: Another thing that I really hate is 'wyspiarze' as 'crannogmen'. Because there is such word as 'krannog' in Polish, so there's no need to create some weird 'Islanders of the Neck'... They don't live on islands, but on crannogs... Never heard about 'krannog' in Polish. But I admit that 'wyspiarze' is not the most fortunate turn of phrase - makes me think of the Brits ... or some other island dwellers. Krannog would indeed be better - it does not carry any misleading connotations, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Błotniaki? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: Błotniaki? That's 'Mud-men'. And reminds me of Błotosmętek (Puddleglum) from Chronicles of Narnia. Quote Crannig - krannog (celtycki gród obronny na wyspie) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Quote The Irish word crannóg derives from Old Irishcrannóc, which referred to a wooden structure or vessel, stemming from crann, which means "tree", plus a diminutive ending—literally "young tree". The modern sense of the term first appears sometime around the 12th century; its popularity spread in the medieval period along with the terms isle, ylle, inis, eilean or oileán. There is some confusion on what the term crannog originally referred to, as the structure atop the island or the island itself. The additional meanings of 'crannog' can be variously related as "structure/piece of wood; wooden pin; crow's nest; pulpit; driver's box on a coach and vessel/box/chest" for crannóg. The Scottish Gaelic form is crannag and has the additional meanings of "pulpit" and "churn".Thus there is no real consensus on what the term crannog actually implies, although the modern adoption in the English language broadly refers to a partially or completely artificial islet that saw use from the prehistoric to the Post-Medieval period in Ireland and Scotland. (From Wikipedia) @ravenous reader, do you think it matters that 'crannogmen' = 'people of the tree' and that crannoc = crow's nest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 24 minutes ago, Wicked Woodpecker of West said: Indeed. IIRC I also give some examples there few years ago. ^^' My thread was inspired by discussion on DaeL's site. But HBO tie-in edition is still Kruk's. Jakuszewski was allowed to correct some elements, but as he admited on last year Kapitularz convent the publishers did not give him enough time to make true correct or his own translation. Others are his own from beginning. Also I'm quite sure there were no Zimopad in Kruk's book. XD BTW the question whether to translate castle's names is quite valid in my opinion with King's Landing or Highgarden being translated, while Casterly Rock or Winterfell left in original form. IMO there should be appendixes at the end of the books, with original versions of names and placenames and their literal meanings explained (like at LOTR). For example, if somebody doesn't know what Littlefinger means, he'll never get the puns characters make. But hey, who cares, and book paper is expensive... For example the GOT edition I have lacks maps and appendix with 'Houses Great and Small' members listed... If I remember correctly, 'The World of Ice and Fire' teanslation mixed up dates and kings - Baelor supposedly reigned before Daeron... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said: Well, there are some folks on this very forum who don't seem to like me using languages that aren't English. I have neither the time nor the will to argue with them again, so out of convenience I'll use English. You getting feisty again, Niebieski, hmmm...'Kociaki mają szpony'..?! 36 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: (From Wikipedia) @ravenous reader, do you think it matters that 'crannogmen' = 'people of the tree' and that crannoc = crow's nest? You mean in reference to the Polish translation? I'm afraid, I won't be able to help you with that! Otherwise, yes it seems significant -- good catch! The floating invisible castle Greywater Watch is basically a crow's nest that ravens can't find... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 36 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: You getting feisty again, Niebieski, hmmm...'Kociaki mają szpony'..?! You mean in reference to the Polish translation? I'm afraid, I won't be able to help you with that! Otherwise, yes it seems significant -- good catch! The floating invisible castle Greywater Watch is basically a crow's nest that ravens can't find... Lew zawsze ma pazury. That's a verse from Rains of Castamere Quote Tekst pieśni (Polski) A kim to jesteś, rzekł dumny lord, że muszę ci się kłaniać? Jedynie kotem innej maści, takiego jestem zdania. W płaszczu czerwonym albo złotym, lew zawsze ma pazury, Lecz moje równie ostre są i sięgną twojej skóry. Tak gadał ten lord Castamere tęgiego zgrywając zucha, Dziś w jego zamku płacze deszcz, którego nikt nie słucha. Dziś w jego zamku płacze deszcz i nie ma kto go słuchać. I don't know why 'halls' got changed to 'zamek' = castle, when it could be either 'sala' or 'hala', both meaning 'hall'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Woodpecker of West Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 Quote For example, if somebody doesn't know what Littlefinger means, he'll never get the puns characters make. BTW - this one should be easily translated from the beginning as Małypalec or just Paluszek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 On 10.07.2017 at 9:45 PM, ravenous reader said: You getting feisty again, Niebieski, hmmm...'Kociaki mają szpony'..?! My feeling is that szpon is a word used exclusively for a bird's claws. To say "Kittens have claws" I'd use: Kociaki mają pazurki. Using the diminutive of "claw". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 55 minutes ago, Wicked Woodpecker of West said: BTW - this one should be easily translated from the beginning as Małypalec or just Paluszek. If I were the translator of ASOIAF, I'd pretend that the text in Polish is a translation of the original text in the Common Tongue of Westeros to some local dialect, done by some maester (maybe Maester Nicol, author of The Measure of the Days, mentioned by Yandel in The World of Ice and Fire). That'd explain why the names are in real world English and would give a reason to add annotations explaining the surnames, names, toponymy, terms... - like moon blood. I know that in Polish we have exact equivalent of moon blood, that shows connection to both month as an unit of time and moon, as miesiąc, our word for month is an archaic word for moon - but most readers don't know that, so they don't understand wtf is going on with moon blood. I remember there's exactly one annotation in the entire ASOIAF - explaining this passage: Quote At a place called Sow's Horn they found a tough old knight named Ser Roger Hogg squatting stubbornly in his towerhouse with six men-at-arms, four crossbowmen, and a score of peasants. Ser Roger was as big and bristly as his name and Ser Kennos suggested that he might be some lost Crakehall, since their sigil was a brindled boar. Strongboar seemed to believe it and spent an earnest hour questioning Ser Roger about his ancestors. If this can be done, why not explain Littlefinger, Blacktyde, Blackfyre, Blackwood, Winterfell, Pyke, Shatterstone, Hammerhorn.... I'd add an entire appendix explaining all those names... but I guess that book paper is super expensive, since the version of Polish GOT I have doesn't have: title page, two maps, foreword and appendix listing all great houses and their members... Now, I understand that this would take a lot of time and work - as I'm translator of Mythical Astronomy and I have to add the annotations I've mentioned myself - but IMO it'd be worth it and the reader's experience would greatly improve... https://theambercompendium.wordpress.com/2017/07/25/waves-of-night-and-moon-blood-part-iii/ Some examples of my annotations to ASOIAF: Quote * nazwisko Rodu Hightowerów to połączenie słow high – wysoki oraz tower – wieża Quote * jeśli chcesz, zobacz herb Wynchów na A Wiki of Ice and Fire, oraz odcinek Encyklopedii Mitów w PLIO o tym właśnie rodzie (w języku angielskim) ¹ nazwa rodu pochodzi od słowa winch, które oznacza korbę, kołowrót ręczny, dźwig, wyciąg, kabestan itd. Quote * ¹ w języku angielskim słowo ash oznacza zarówno jesion jak i popiół ² spalający się w atmosferze meteor wygląda bardzo podobnie do komety – patrz zdjęcie meteoru i fotografie komety Quote * Żeglarz Nocy, po angielsku Nighflyer to nawiązanie do opowiadania Żeglarze nocy George’a R.R. Martina Blacktyde znaczy po angielsku czarna fala Quote *po angielsku jest to użyte słowo float, które znaczy dryfować, unosić się na wodzie/w powietrzu BTW, are you guys members of Ogień i Lód Forum? Never mind, lol... how could I have missed such an obvious wordplay on your nickname there. Nevermind, lol... how could I have missed such an obvious wordplay on your nickname there. @ravenous reader, I fear my symbolism and wordplay skills are getting rusty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 22 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: My feeling is that szpon is a word used exclusively for a bird's claws. To say "Kittens have claws" I'd use: Kociaki mają pazurki. Using the diminutive of "claw". Yeah, szpon means talon. Pazur is claw in more general sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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