Women in Unconventional Roles/Jobs (Minor Characters)

[Traverys]

Just thought I'd start a thread discussing minor female characters with surprising "jobs" or roles. There are a fairly large number of major female characters the exceed the constrained boundaries of medieval womanhood. Arya, Cersei (at least she likes to think so), Brienne, Asha, Daenerys, etc.

What about minor characters? They're easy to overlook.

I'll start out with Alyse Ladybright. She's named Lord Treasurer of Sunspear. When I read that she was Lord Treasurer I had to think "Is Alyse a male name too?" Considering it's a respelling of Alice, I felt foolish for even thinking it. But, back on topic: Is appointing women to court positions in Dorne not unheard of? Is House Ladybright known for exceptional women (hence the name) to begin with, so they're the exception to the rule? Regardless, she would be an interesting woman to talk to, I'm sure. 

Any other examples of these exceptional (minor character) women lurking in the backdrops?

[kissdbyfire]

The She-Bears come to mind... Maege is the head of her house, and at least Dacey and Alysane are warriors. I love the description of their gate at BI. 

[Bluetiger]

31 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Just thought I'd start a thread discussing minor female characters with surprising "jobs" or roles. There are a fairly large number of major female characters the exceed the constrained boundaries of medieval womanhood. Arya, Cersei (at least she likes to think so), Brienne, Asha, Daenerys, etc.

What about minor characters? They're easy to overlook.

I'll start out with Alyse Ladybright. She's named Lord Treasurer of Sunspear. When I read that she was Lord Treasurer I had to think "Is Alyse a male name too?" Considering it's a respelling of Alice, I felt foolish for even thinking it. But, back on topic: Is appointing women to court positions in Dorne not unheard of? Is House Ladybright known for exceptional women (hence the name) to begin with, so they're the exception to the rule? Regardless, she would be an interesting woman to talk to, I'm sure. 

Any other examples of these exceptional (minor character) women lurking in the backdrops?

I think it's not unheard of in Dorne. Even in medieval France there were instances when women served as Castellans or other officials (Beatrice of Bourbourg in 1194). And Dorne is much more progressive in this matter.

And in 14-th century Poland a woman was King (PL. król = king, queen is królowa, such office as queen regnant is unheard of, if woman ruled she'd be called król (King) not queen. 

But it seems that in the rest of the 7K women wouldn't hold offices - at least officially - see Elaena Targaryen and Michael Manwoody.

There's also Mistress of Whisperers Tyanna of the Tower, and later Mysaria, both Small Council members - but seeing how they're treated by Yandel in his account, it seems that such appointments are not common at KL court. 

Arwyn Oakheart, The Lady of Old Oak seems to be an important political player in The Reach.

[Traverys]

On 7/10/2017 at 2:17 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The She-Bears come to mind... Maege is the head of her house, and at least Dacey and Alysane are warriors. I love the description of their gate at BI. 

Yup, definitely the women of Bear Island! I've always enjoyed them the most out of all the Northerners, tbh. Maege is an impressive figure. Head of her household and no one seems to concern themselves with who the father(s) of her daughters is.

On 7/10/2017 at 2:43 PM, Blue Tiger said:

I think it's not unheard of in Dorne. Even in medieval France there were instances when women served as Castellans or other officials (Beatrice of Bourbourg in 1194). And Dorne is much more progressive in this matter.

And in 14-th century Poland a woman was King (PL. król = king, queen is królowa, such office as queen regnant is unheard of, if woman ruled she'd be called król (King) not queen. 

But it seems that in the rest of the 7K women wouldn't hold offices - at least officially - see Elaena Targaryen and Michael Manwoody.

There's also Mistress of Whisperers Tyanna of the Tower, and later Mysaria, both Small Council members - but seeing how they're treated by Yandel in his account, it seems that such appointments are not common at KL court. 

Arwyn Oakheart, The Lady of Old Oak seems to be an important political player in The Reach.

Lots of interesting facts!

I actually recently learned about Jadwiga (the "king" of Poland) playing Civilization VI. She's a very fascinating figure to read about. (And annoying AI to play against in the game!)

Women serving as spymasters/informants seems to have some historical precedent as well. Or, even without officially holding the title, mothers, wives, and close female relatives would be utilized by rulers to serve as agents of intrigue. Who better? Women were often invisible, had access to circles/places men did not, and thought to be inherently less intelligent/clever than men.

Thanks for the information regarding France. I look forward to looking up some of these women officials.

I would also point out that Basque culture (Kingdom of Navarre, I believe) practiced absolute primogeniture (like Dorne) but did not officially appoint females in court positions otherwise.

[TMIFairy]

Danny Flint, the short lived Black Brother?

Which of course is like totally foreshadowing of Jon shagging Danearys senseless ... and Daenerys dying on him from orgasm overload

Jadwiga of Anjou (Hedwig, to German speakers) was not the only woman crowned as King of Poland. Anna Jagiellonka in 1572 was another.

I'm fairly sure that "woman crowned as King" happened elsewhere too - Isabelle of Castille? She was one half of the Reyes Catolicos (Catholic Kings), the other being Ferdinand of Aragon.

You know, they were the couple which sent that Italian dude sailing into the sunset ...

 

[Lord Vance II]

Mya Stone.

[TMIFairy]

7 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Mya Stone.

Does not count.

Not glamouros enough - does not involve fighting or ruling

 

[Lord Vance II]

3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Does not count.

Not glamouros enough - does not involve fighting or ruling

So I guess you didn't bother reading the OP? Minor characters aren't supposed to be glamorous. 

Also, Lady Waynwood ruling her house in the chivalry-crazed Vale is pretty impressive. In most situations where the Lord husband dies, it seems like it goes to the son and the mother kind of takes an advisor/ceremonial role. But not Anya Waynwood, apparently. 

[TMIFairy]

My post was in jest.

Although I suspected that you would not get it.

[Traverys]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Danny Flint, the short lived Black Brother?

Which of course is like totally foreshadowing of Jon shagging Danearys senseless ... and Daenerys dying on him from orgasm overload

Jadwiga of Anjou (Hedwig, to German speakers) was not the only woman crowned as King of Poland. Anna Jagiellonka in 1572 was another.

I'm fairly sure that "woman crowned as King" happened elsewhere too - Isabelle of Castille? She was one half of the Reyes Catolicos (Catholic Kings), the other being Ferdinand of Aragon.

You know, they were the couple which sent that Italian dude sailing into the sunset ...

 

Danny Flint.

It's a sidenote, but it's interesting to consider what her "tale" is supposed to teach. Tales often lived on because they were illustrative of lessons to be learned (e.g., the Rat Cook and guest rite). What lesson is to be learned by Danny Flint? Is she praised for her bravery and honor or chastised for exceeding the role of a woman? Or both?

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

Mya Stone.

She's a fantastic example. How did I not think of her?

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

So I guess you didn't bother reading the OP? Minor characters aren't supposed to be glamorous. 

Also, Lady Waynwood ruling her house in the chivalry-crazed Vale is pretty impressive. In most situations where the Lord husband dies, it seems like it goes to the son and the mother kind of takes an advisor/ceremonial role. But not Anya Waynwood, apparently. 

I just reread the Lords Declarant chapter yesterday and I was impressed by how she was second to only Yohn Royce in the meeting with Littlefinger. Even more impressive was her chastisement of Lyn Corbray, and she didn't seem to worried when he threatened her with Lady Forlorn. It reminds me of a "Have you forgotten me, ser?" speech from a woman in a show that I'm not supposed to mention.

She also houses Harrold Hardyng, and thus has a trump card to play in regards to the Vale.

[The Bard of Banefort]

We don't know any of them by name, but Theon does tell us that it isn't unheard of for a woman to captain her own ship on the Iron Islands. 

[TMIFairy]

5 hours ago, Traverys said:

Danny Flint.

It's a sidenote, but it's interesting to consider what her "tale" is supposed to teach.

 

The first thing which springs to mind is:

"Girl, don't do 'man things' or you will come to a nasty end."

Not that girls doing girl things don't come to a nasty end either.

IT'S ALL MEN'S FAULT!!!!11

 

[Nevets]

Meera Reed - An accomplished hunter and outdoorswoman and physical protector of her brother (instead of the other way around).  And she's highborn to boot.

Sarella Sand - Disguising herself as a boy to attend the Citadel, and doing pretty well at it.  Of course, the Citadel is probably a better place for this type of thing than the Wall.

Lady Smallwood - Lady running her own keep and helping the local resistance.  I expect this sort of thing might be somewhat common during wartime, though.  Still, she is stronger than I might expect.

11 hours ago, Traverys said:

Danny Flint.

It's a sidenote, but it's interesting to consider what her "tale" is supposed to teach. Tales often lived on because they were illustrative of lessons to be learned (e.g., the Rat Cook and guest rite). What lesson is to be learned by Danny Flint? Is she praised for her bravery and honor or chastised for exceeding the role of a woman? Or both?

i think it may be GRRM taking a shot at the popular trope of a girl secretly joining a military outfit, and nothing bad happening to her.  Particularly with an outfit like the Night's Watch, which has more than its fair share of criminals in general, and rapers in particular.  I think he feels that, in a real situation, Danny Flint's fate would be the more likely, especially with an outfit like the NW.

[TMIFairy]

Now that Lady Smallwood was mentioned, she reminded me about Lady Agnes Blackwood.

With some of themost badass lines in the history of Westeros:

I have other sons. Raventree shall endure long after you and yours are cast down and destroyed. Your line shall end in blood and fire.[1]

”

- Agnes to Harwyn Hoare after he murdered two of her sons

“

I would sooner have your sword inside me than your cock.[1]

”

- Agnes to Harwyn Hoare after after he spewed the typical Ironborn bullshit about saltwife being "a honourable position"

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Agnes_Blackwood

[The Bard of Banefort]

Alysanne Blackwood led a group of archers in battle during the Dance of the Dragons:
 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alysanne_Blackwood

[Traverys]

15 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

The first thing which springs to mind is:

"Girl, don't do 'man things' or you will come to a nasty end."

Not that girls doing girl things don't come to a nasty end either.

IT'S ALL MEN'S FAULT!!!!11

 

I know you're being a little tongue-in-cheek, but it's the truth in the end. It's a lose/lose situation being a girl.

 

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

Meera Reed - An accomplished hunter and outdoorswoman and physical protector of her brother (instead of the other way around).  And she's highborn to boot.

Sarella Sand - Disguising herself as a boy to attend the Citadel, and doing pretty well at it.  Of course, the Citadel is probably a better place for this type of thing than the Wall.

Lady Smallwood - Lady running her own keep and helping the local resistance.  I expect this sort of thing might be somewhat common during wartime, though.  Still, she is stronger than I might expect.

i think it may be GRRM taking a shot at the popular trope of a girl secretly joining a military outfit, and nothing bad happening to her.  Particularly with an outfit like the Night's Watch, which has more than its fair share of criminals in general, and rapers in particular.  I think he feels that, in a real situation, Danny Flint's fate would be the more likely, especially with an outfit like the NW.

Nice contributions!

Meera is certainly an accomplished young woman. It makes me wonder if we'll ever get much insight into Crannogman (crannogwoman? crannogess?) life. Perhaps it's not against the norm for women to be trained to wield weapons?

To add on to your point about Sarella, she seemed to be quite skilled with a bow in Pate's prologue.

And I completely forgot about Lady Smallwood of Acorn Hall! I've always been fond of her character. I get what you mean how there is something more than just a keeper of a household in Lady Smallwood. She also (likely secretly) supported the Brotherhood, suggesting she has uncommon sympathies for the smallfolk or the righteousness of Dondarrion's cause. Either way it's venturing into the political arena where women who weren't married (or close family/daughters of) important people didn't belong.

And you're probably right about Danny Flint. A deconstruction of the Mulan tale, and all those similar to it. It's a story tied to pride, that even the women would fight for the honor of a country. But, in the end, the soldiers would never see her as a companion in arms and she would be of only one use to them.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Alysanne Blackwood led a group of archers in battle during the Dance of the Dragons:
 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alysanne_Blackwood

Very true! Instead of turning over command to a master at arms or a male relative she led them herself. All my history knowledge escape me right now, but there were certainly women in our history that took military matters into their own hands. Caterina Sforza comes to mind, but there are most likely better examples out there.

 

I'd like to add Rhaenys Targaryen to the mix. When Queen Rhaenyra didn't aid a besieged Lord Connington and forbid her sons from doing so, the aged Rhaenys hopped on her dragon and took matters into her own hand. Granted, female dragonriders are likely all a bit on the badass (or reckless, depending on who you ask) side, Rhaenys always gives me tingles.

Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe. Against Vhagar alone she might have had some chance, for the Red Queen was old and cunning, and no stranger to battle. Against Vhagar and Sunfyre together, doom was certain.

Dangerous Women (Outlander series) (p. 724). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

She's my fav Dying Moment of Awesome GRRM has written.

[Bluetiger]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

I'd like to add Rhaenys Targaryen to the mix. When Queen Rhaenyra didn't aid a besieged Lord Connington and forbid her sons from doing so, the aged Rhaenys hopped on her dragon and took matters into her own hand. Granted, female dragonriders are likely all a bit on the badass (or reckless, depending on who you ask) side, Rhaenys always gives me tingles.

Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe. Against Vhagar alone she might have had some chance, for the Red Queen was old and cunning, and no stranger to battle. Against Vhagar and Sunfyre together, doom was certain.

Dangerous Women (Outlander series) (p. 724). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

She's my fav Dying Moment of Awesome GRRM has written.

It was Lord Staunton of Rook's Rest, not Connington:

Quote

Duskendale fell easily, taken by surprise by the King’s forces, the town sacked, the ships in the harbor set afire, Lord Darklyn beheaded. Rook’s Rest was Ser Criston’s next objective. Forewarned of their coming, Lord Staunton closed his gates and defied the attackers. Behind his walls, his lordship could only watch as his fields and woods and villages were burned, his sheep and cattle and smallfolk put to the sword. When provisions inside the castle began to run low, he dispatched a raven to Dragonstone, pleading for succor.

Nine days after Lord Staunton dispatched his plea for help, the sound of leathern wings was heard across the sea, and the dragon Meleys appeared above Rook’s Rest. The Red Queen, she was called, for the scarlet scales that covered her. The membranes of her wings were pink, her crest, horns, and claws bright as copper. And on her back, in steel and copper armor that flashed in the sun, rode Rhaenys Targaryen, the Queen Who Never Was.

(The Princess and The Queen)

 

[TMIFairy]

5 hours ago, Traverys said:

I know you're being a little tongue-in-cheek, but it's the truth in the end. It's a lose/lose situation being a girl.

Yes, I was a little tongue-in-cheek

I also agree that sometimes (always?) being a woman sucks - even though I'm a boy I fancy myself as a bit of a closet feminist of sorts.

[LindsayLohan]

Val.

[Seams]

Jeyne Heddle, manager of the inn at the crossroads.