Does Cersei really love Jaime?

[Tini]

27 minutes ago, beauty6 said:

The power lies where people think it does, as lord Varys once said. If Jaime can get away with second guessing the orders of the king, he has a power to do it, even if the law does not back him up. And he earned plus points with me because he meant well - he meant for the KG not to be used for beating women. But he also earned facepalm from me for not realizing, that Tommen is very different from Joffrey.

I think Jaime would be extremely surprised if Tommen started acting like Joffrey. He knew both of them.

His instruction was meant for the members of the King's Guard, and only for them. He changed their orders - not so much in his capacity as commander of the King's Guard, but in the role that Tywin intended for him. Tywin wanted him to become a subsitute father for Tommen. Jaime refused that, as he refused his position as Tywin's heir.

But now that Tywin is dead, Jaime has started filling his father's place. Not at court. In the country. His actions at Riverrun show that he is capable of the same sort of actions Tywin was capable of - and renowned for. Tywin's actions were not the actions of a nice man. Allies and adversaries respected him nevertheless. And now, after the way Jaime ended the siege at Riverrun, they start respecting the Kingslayer as they respected his father.

"The power lies where people think it does" is absolutely correct.

 

 

[Ana Amaral]

I read most of the posts here, and I kind of agree with most of them. But for me, it's mostly like a parallel being drawn between them. At first, both of them are equally awful, narcissistic, self-entitled, horrible people. They were raised to believe they were better than everybody else. But I think things start changing with the experiences they had along the story. And I think that's happened to show that even twins that are very much alike will develop differently if they find different situations. I guess that's why Jaime is in a redemption arc and Cersei is crashing and burning.

But to answer the original question, I think they both believed they loved one another.

[Lord Varys]

I actually think Jaime is going to be as worse a character in his future arc as Cersei is going to be, perhaps even worse. Jaime has a guilt complex revolving around Rhaegar and his children. Assuming Catelyn spares his life - and I honestly see no good reason why she should be doing that (the only explanation I think would make sense if Jaime is going to play a crucial part in the liberation of the hostages and the retaking of Riverrun - and the subsequent brutal execution of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister) - he is most likely going to try to make amends to Rhaegar's shade by making Rhaegar's son the next king. Jaime will follow in Criston Cole's footsteps, being the Kingmaker of Aegon VI Targaryen.

Just like Cole did, he'll turn Targaryen against Targaryen - most likely motivated by the fact that Tyrion is with Dany. But he'll back the wrong horse. The fake Targaryen. The pretender who claims to be Rhaegar's son.

There is no redemption in store for him. In the end his life will be even a bigger joke than it is already. One can only hope that he realizes that before he dies. And that he himself is to be blamed for that, and no one else.

[Dofs]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Joffrey Baratheon was a minor and Cersei Lannister served as Queen Regent from the moment of his ascension, and later continued in that function after Tommen Baratheon rose to the throne.

My bad, I forgot she was one, given that she had virtually no real power during Joffrey's time. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, usually a regent or Hand wouldn't interfere with the Kingsguard all that much. Their duty is to protect the king. When they give orders to help with that everything is fine. But if a regent decided to send all the seven White Swords on some fool's errand, handing the protection of the king to his own brother or son in the meantime, the Kingsguard - especially the Lord Commander - should begin to think for themselves and whether these regent really has the interests of the king at heart.

We see that the Kingsguard was sort of semi-independent even during the Regency of Aegon III. Unwin Peake had to get his own half-brother into the Kingsguard to ensure that Queen Jaehaera would be defenseless when he sent his assassin to murder her.

The thing with Unwin Peake is a rumor and not a fact. And if it was true, it still just shows that the Kingsguard has to protect the lives of the royal family and that's it. Other matters are not within their authority. And hence Jaime's order not to listen his sister was not lawful by any means given the reason why he gave it. 

[Apoplexy]

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

No. They were in constant danger and it was getting worse and worse. Stannis and Jon Arryn knew. If Robert learned and believed the truth they would all be finished. Cersei and Jaime's real and most dangerous enemies were at court. Not in the Riverlands. Tywin could have taken care of the Tyrion business. Jaime's place was with Cersei and his children.

 

Yes, Tywin could've taken care of the Tyrion business. Jaime was certainly implusive, but saying that his place was with Cersei is unfair. He couldn't have known when the information about the incest was going to come out. But the Tyrion crisis had happened. And Robert believing the information was a big 'if".

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jaime didn't fight any rebels. He himself became a rebel when he and Tywin attacked the Riverlands. King Robert hadn't given them leave to invade the Riverlands, right? And Robert doing nothing in a given situation doesn't mean a deed is not a crime.

 

The legality of the action would only come to question if Robert considered it illegal and decided to take action. He didn't and didn't command the Lannisters to back down. That's what matters in the end.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

On what would you base that? Cersei and Robert have nothing in common. Even if they did not grown to hate or despise each other the way they did they would still have had nothing but an amicable relationship. Perhaps something like Elia and Rhaegar had. But they would have inevitably grown apart later during their marriage. Cersei didn't have any taste for Robert's hobbies and she sure as hell wouldn't have liked that he had affairs.

 

I base this on Cersei's character. Everything she does is for self interest or to gain power. Having nothing in common with Robert wouldn't matter to Cersei as long as she was queen in the way she wanted.

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jaime would have given up Cersei under any circumstances. The Jaime in ASoS still wants to marry Cersei.

 

Yes, Jaime wants to marry Cersei in Storm. He puts his relationship with her above everything else. Cersei on the other hand has other priorities. Which shows that she wants power, and would've been content if Robert would have given her power in the way she desired it.

 

On 10/9/2017 at 4:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

On the facts. It was utter stupidity to actually attack Eddard Stark in the streets and then flee the city, abandoning his children and sister to her enemies/Robert. Jaime's motivation there was to express his rage and show off his strength and abilities.

Jaime and Cersei should have laid the issue before Robert. If they had both pushed Robert hard enough and played their cards right they might have been able to destroy Ned then and there. An attack on the king's brother-in-law is an attack on the king himself - or can at least seen as such. And Robert was mad over the Targaryen incident and Ned's resignation. They only reconcile after Jaime seriously injures Ned.

 

Why would Jaime want to show off his strengths and abilities here? He is already considered the finest swordsman in Westeros. He cared about Tyrion and hence attacked Ned. It was definitely a stupid idea, but his motivation was neither display of his abilities nor just a whim.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Have you thought about the ages of the twins there for a moment. Jaime went to Crakehall as a squire at the age of eleven - we know he squired for Lord Sumner for four years and got knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne at the age of fourteen. The idea that 10-11-year-old-boy was romantically and sexually devoted to his twin sister in any meaningful way at this early age is, quite frankly, highly implausible.

Sure, the twins would have had their special twin bond and all but no actual romantic or sexual relationship. It is highly unlikely that they were even able to consummate their relationship properly before Jaime left for Crakehall.

The first real and passionate incest sex would have come much later - perhaps in KL when Cersei convinced Jaime to join the KG.

So I ask again - how on earth was the 11-15-year-old Jaime immune to the charms of the pretty girls at Crakehall Castle and the surrounding villages? A normal boy wouldn't have been.

Which means that Jaime is weird.

 

I don't think its implausible that Jaime was devoted to Cersei before leaving to be a squire. Not all adolescents have to be sexually active, and there is nothing abnormal about refusing sex to be true to the person you love, at any age. Jaime has a strong feelings about fidelity. He was true to Cersei despite of Cersei having a husband, so I don't think he would've slept with someone else when she wasn't married. Weird is a strong word and unfair.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Again, Jaime abandoned his king, his queen/sister/lover, his children-nephews/niece. There is no reason to praise him for that. He had no right to defend the honor of Casterly Rock. He is a Kingsguard.

And it is, of course, also wrong on the emotional level - your children and lover/sister/queen should come before your brother, don't you think?

 

I'm not praising Jaime for his stupidities. I'm saying I understand and the motivation behind his actions wasn't self interest.

Consider this, Jaime doesn't have a strong connection with his children, the children and Cersei aren't in imminent danger. I can understand why Jaime decided to help his brother. I

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Cersei actually has other priorities. She is a mother who loves her children whereas Jaime is a father who seems to see his children as little more than things. Cersei and Jaime both like power and aspire to greatness, but Jaime is the one who really can see only himself until he loses his hand. Cersei can bide her time. Cersei can think. Jaime didn't even know how to think until he could no longer use his sword. Jaime only thinks about his own wishes and desires - his marriage to Cersei, for instance - while Cersei actually has the sense to consider how her actions are going to affect her children, her house, and the Iron Throne.

I don't fault Cesei for her priorities. And I don't fault Jaime for his either. But the fact remains that Cersei is high on Jaime's priority list, whereas Jaime is very low on Cersei's.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Cersei isn't a nice person, of course, but neither is Jaime. He is the one who fathered three bastards on the queen about whom he later does not care. He is even more guilty of that high treason than Cersei is. He was a Kingsguard. Kingsguard usually do not fuck the queen. It is Jaime who aborts the only child Robert actually fathered.

Jaime aborts Robert's child? You are making this up. It was Cesei's decision to abort and she commissioned Jaime to find means to do it. In fact, it was Cersei who ensured she didn't give birth to children Robert fathered. It was her was of getting back at Robert. And Cersie was just as much responsible for the bastards as Jaime.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not really. It is clearly part of their game that Cersei usually comes to Jaime asking for/offering sex. That is how they do it.

Sure, but in this case we do know that Jaime wanted to fuck Cersei. Just not there in the White Tower. It was not a 'I don't want to have sex with you under any circumstances' or a 'You disgust me, get out of my sight' rejecting but a 'I love you and want to sleep with you but not here' rejection.

And again - a silly one, considering what he had pulled off in the sept.

 

Game or not, Jaime didn't want to have sex at that moment. That's all that matters. Just because you have been doing something in the past doesn't mean it has to hold true for every future tryst. Time and place form an integral part of consent. It doesn't matter what Jaime did in the sept. It was wrong in the sept and that doesn't give Cersei the liberty to have sex with Jaime in a place where he doesn't want to. Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Catelyn can wonder all day - it is still a crime. A crime to be punished by death in this world, as a regicide and fucking the queen (if you are not the king) in this world. And Jaime made this all worse by being a fucking Kingsguard all the time.

It is rarely addressed but Jaime actually was Robert's Kingsguard. Fucking Cersei was an abominable crime for a man who swore his vows.

Nobody is denying that Jaime was at fault. But Cersei was at fault just as much.

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you think a man is justified in emotionally disconnecting from his children I'm glad I'm not child of yours.

And again - note that nobody forced Jaime Lannister to conceive those children he then made Robert's children in the eyes of the world. He was as guilty of that as Cersei, perhaps even more. The idea that Cersei somehow stole the children away from Jaime doesn't make any sense. They would have both known that the children must be Robert's since they would all die in any other scenario.

 

I'm going to refrain for getting personal. All I'm going to say is that family loyalties aren't black and white. Context matters.

I'm not saying Cersie stole the children from Jaime. But she ensured he wasn't seen around them. So its not surprising that Jaime wasn't close with them. He considered Joffrey to be Robert's son. But he did care about the others. Again, Jaime aspires to marry Cersei and have a domestic life with her and the children.

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, if my brother tells me in anger that he killed my son after he was also convicted of that crime during a trial I think I'd have to believe him, don't you think? And in a world like Westeros where vendettas and blood feuds are part of the identity of nobility and royalty alike it makes no sense at all that Jaime would allow Tyrion to get away with that.

What do you think Tywin would have done if Kevan had confessed to him during an argument that he had poisoned Joanna or murdered their mother? What do you think Ned would have done if Benjen admitted to him that he smothered Sansa in her sleep?

 

Jaime wasn't stupid enough to believe Tyrion when he said he killed Joffrey. And do you really think it would be a good thing for someone to behave like Tywin?? I'm sure Ned wouldn't be stupid enough to react impulsively either.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

He makes it clear that he wants them to inherit the Rock. That could work if they legitimized them as their children. He doesn't want them to sit the Iron Throne, knowing very well that this is not going to happen in such a scenario.

Well, if they are his children and he isn't king, the only logical answer would be for them to inherit Casterly Rock, don't you think? Again, that's what he aspired for, he was trying to find ways to make it happen.

 

On 10/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jaime isn't Tommen's regent. He is Tommen's servant, bound to protect and obey him. If there is a group of people who have no right to second-guess or countermand the king it is the Kingsguard and its Lord Commander. In fact, the Kingsguard should be the only people who might be able to ignore the orders of the king's government during a regency considering that their ultimate loyalty as per their vow lies with the very person of the monarch. Whether they do that all that often is a different matter.

However, Jaime actually actively undermining the authority of his monarch goes completely against the Kingsguard duties as well as the interest of the king himself and the interests of Tommen as a person.

 

I realize Jaime isn't his regent. But do you really think checking with Cersei first would've been a good idea? And Jaime didn't say he was going to do anything behind Cersei's back. KG report to the Commander of the KG who reports to the regent seems like a reasonable channel to me.

[Apoplexy]

20 hours ago, Ana Amaral said:

I read most of the posts here, and I kind of agree with most of them. But for me, it's mostly like a parallel being drawn between them. At first, both of them are equally awful, narcissistic, self-entitled, horrible people. They were raised to believe they were better than everybody else. But I think things start changing with the experiences they had along the story. And I think that's happened to show that even twins that are very much alike will develop differently if they find different situations. I guess that's why Jaime is in a redemption arc and Cersei is crashing and burning.

But to answer the original question, I think they both believed they loved one another.

I agree they both believe they loved one another. But Cersei would've loved him more if he could have given her power and fame, whereas he loved her regardless. At least in this relationship, Jaime seemed to have loved and cared for Cersei more than she reciprocated.

[Joy Hill]

On 9/10/2017 at 11:05 PM, Ana Amaral said:

I read most of the posts here, and I kind of agree with most of them. But for me, it's mostly like a parallel being drawn between them. At first, both of them are equally awful, narcissistic, self-entitled, horrible people. They were raised to believe they were better than everybody else. But I think things start changing with the experiences they had along the story. And I think that's happened to show that even twins that are very much alike will develop differently if they find different situations. I guess that's why Jaime is in a redemption arc and Cersei is crashing and burning.
 

I'm not sure if this is a nature or nurture thing.

10 year old Jaime believed in tales of chivalry, loved dogs and horses, was devoted to his sister and protective of his baby brother.

10 year old Cersei tyrannized servants and smallfolk, inflicted sexual torture on her baby brother and pushed her best friend down a well.

There is a marked difference there.

[Sigella]

On 2017-10-09 at 11:48 PM, Lord Varys said:

I actually think Jaime is going to be as worse a character in his future arc as Cersei is going to be, perhaps even worse. Jaime has a guilt complex revolving around Rhaegar and his children. Assuming Catelyn spares his life - and I honestly see no good reason why she should be doing that (the only explanation I think would make sense if Jaime is going to play a crucial part in the liberation of the hostages and the retaking of Riverrun - and the subsequent brutal execution of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister) - he is most likely going to try to make amends to Rhaegar's shade by making Rhaegar's son the next king. Jaime will follow in Criston Cole's footsteps, being the Kingmaker of Aegon VI Targaryen.

Just like Cole did, he'll turn Targaryen against Targaryen - most likely motivated by the fact that Tyrion is with Dany. But he'll back the wrong horse. The fake Targaryen. The pretender who claims to be Rhaegar's son.

There is no redemption in store for him. In the end his life will be even a bigger joke than it is already. One can only hope that he realizes that before he dies. And that he himself is to be blamed for that, and no one else.

He has Edmure and Jeyne W to trade, which is pretty much the only way I can see Stoneheart sparing him.

[Lost Melnibonean]

31 minutes ago, Sigella said:

He has Edmure and Jeyne W to trade, which is pretty much the only way I can see Stoneheart sparing him.

Edmure and Robb's queen are no longer in Jaime's power. 

[Sigella]

28 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Edmure and Robb's queen are no longer in Jaime's power. 

Oh yeah, Jeyne is with the Blackfish, forgot about that...

But he could still trade Edmure and Roslin. He sent them to CR but he could still send for them back.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Oh yeah, Jeyne is with the Blackfish, forgot about that...

But he could still trade Edmure and Roslin. He sent them to CR but he could still send for them back.

How? They are in a column under the command of Ser Forley Prester on the march from Riverrun to Casterly Rock. Let's assume that Jaime and Brienne have been taken alone into Lady Stoneheart's power. To whom and how would Jaime give the command? (I believe Roslyn is still at the Twins, and Jeyne is with Edmure, no?) 

If Jaime were to be traded for Edmure, the deal would have to be made by Daven Lannister or the crown. 

But I don't think that's what Lady Stoneheart has in mind. Roslyn is safe for now with her family at the Twins, and Lady Stoneheart's uncle could be attempting to free Edmure and Jeyne, perhaps aided by a pack of gaunt wolves led by an enormous she-wolf. Family, Duty, Honor. 

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

How? They are in a column under the command of Ser Forley Prester on the march from Riverrun to Casterly Rock. Let's assume that Jaime and Brienne have been taken alone into Lady Stoneheart's power. To whom and how would Jaime give the command? (I believe Roslyn is still at the Twins, and Jeyne is with Edmure, no?) 

If Jaime were to be traded for Edmure, the deal would have to be made by Daven Lannister or the crown. 

But I don't think that's what Lady Stoneheart has in mind. Roslyn is safe for now with her family at the Twins, and Lady Stoneheart's uncle could be attempting to free Edmure and Jeyne, perhaps aided by a pack of gaunt wolves led by an enormous she-wolf. Family, Duty, Honor. 

Assuming they strike a deal, he could well send Brienne

 

edit: I very much like the prospect of wolfpack rock'n'roll though!