anjulibai

Does Cersei really love Jaime?

132 posts in this topic

25 minutes ago, Dofs said:

First of all "running around honestly declaring there are no men like you, only you" is not something that proves that Jaime has enough points to have a narcissistic personality disorder. Secondly Jaime telling that in one dialogue as an answer to an accusation that he is the same as all the other scum and monsters out there is not him "running around honestly declaring there are no men like him, only him". Don't take this phrase out of context and base Jaime's entire character on it. Jaime in the very same dialogue have said that there are others like him - particularly Brandon Stark. Later in the book he flat out says that Loras is a young him and he also later compares himself with the Smiling Knight. So taking this "no men like me" literally and thinking that it is a narcissistic statement is wrong. It wasn't. Not only it is apparent when you read the context of this statement, it also contradicts all the other instances when Jaime in fact does compare himself with others.

It shows that Jaime has a very high opinion of himself. He has no peers in his own mind. And he is partially true, there. It is objectively correct that he is arguable the most beautiful man of his generation. He has an impeccable noble bloodline, was once the heir of the richest man on the continent. He is also one of the best swordsman of his generation. 

But his entire attitude prior to the loss of his hand shows that the only rules that apply to him are his own. If Jaime is nice to you it is because he wants to, not because he feels he should do. Jaime Lannister makes his own rules. And that character trait doesn't go away after he loses his hand, it is just expressed differently. It is his own fancy that he suddenly wants to be a good Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. One can doubt that this is the best or proper thing to do. It certainly isn't helping his family and friends.

He is, of course, suffering from exactly the same upbringing as Cersei. As a Lannister of Casterly Rock he it is natural for him to feel entitled but while Cersei accepts other people's judgment and has other priorities than her own whims when the safety of her children is concerned, Jaime only follows his own whims. Right now he wants to be Goldenhand the Just. Let's wait and see how long that lasts. I'm not holding my breath.

Brandon Stark is nothing like Jaime. Nobody described him as as beautiful or capable as Jaime, nor is he as rich as the Lannisters. He is a hothead and certainly also a capable and exceptional man but he isn't like Jaime. Nobody is like Jaime Lannister.

25 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Not only this statement can be applied to everything, for example to Ned when he killed Lady, but also - Jaime killed Bran? 

You know what I meant there. Jaime wanted to kill Bran. Now, Ned killed Lady but he certainly didn't want to do that. He had empathy for her and considered it the right thing to following the code of honor the Starks are following. But that code of honor isn't based on the idea that the Starks are special and better than anybody else. Jaime's is.

25 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Jaime didn't believe Tyrion that he did.

That doesn't matter. He decided that a debt he owed to Tyrion justified to free the convicted murderer of his own son and king. If that's not ignoring both the laws and common morals and rules of decency I don't know what is. And once Tyrion actually told him he killed his son he would have been obliged to actually arrest him again because Tyrion had admitted that he had killed the king. I mean, you do recall that Jaime wants to be an exemplary Lord Commander of the Kingsguard now, right? You know he spit his own father in the face to continue to be the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard before he freed Joffrey's murderer?

Thinking about another thing:

If you take the murder of Aerys II the readers usually mimic Brienne's reaction and interpret his actions as the moral deed of a man who wanted to save a city from a madman. However, does Jaime's own POV actually show empathy for the denizens of KL that are about to be burned here? Is he morally conflicted between his duty to his king and his empathy for the innocent victims of Aerys' mad plan?

I see no hints that he is. Instead, it is quite clear that Jaime - who choose of his own free will to become a Kingsguard of a mad and cruel king - cannot really keep up with the situation. He grows to resent and hate Aerys very early on, essentially since the moment the man sent him back to KL. That is understandable, of course, no 15-year-old boy should serve a madman like Aerys (but, again, he knew what the man was when he spoke his vows). The murder of Aerys is just Jaime's way to get even with a man he, most likely, wanted to kill a long time again. It is not a heroic deed, it is murder, and the way he deals with it thereafter is the way of a perfect narcissist - he gets away with it and thus proves, in a sense, that the normal rules of the world of (lesser) men don't apply to him. He is not punished for his crime. But he still cannot accept that the wolf judges him for his actions, even despite the fact that Ned's judgment is irrelevant. Robert behaves like a proper little stag and bows to the lion.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is his own fancy that he suddenly wants to be a good Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. One can doubt that this is the best or proper thing to do. It certainly isn't helping his family and friends.

This is silly.  Jaime's attitude changes genuinely because his entire sense of self-worth was caught up in his martial ability, which is now gone.  He has to do an entire self-reevaluation on the fly because his entire worldview has been torn down.  Once he's stripped of his privilege, he starts to realize how his actions have always been self-serving and maybe others deserve empathy.  Brienne, for example, justifies all that is good about Westerosi notions of knighthood, without actually being a knight.  Which in turn makes Jaime re-examine his own cynicism.

None of this makes him a genuinely good person, or atones for his earlier actions, but it's a character arc, not a teleportation from point A to point B.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

hile Cersei accepts other people's judgment and has other priorities than her own whims when the safety of her children is concerned,

I don't agree.  Cersei doesn't love her kids.  She loves herself, and views her kids as extensions of herself.  For example, in the hottest part of the WOT5K, Myrcella gets sent from an extremely dangerous Kings Landing to Dorne, where she is objectively much safer.  Cersei is far more concerned with her child being taken from her, than she is in the benefit of having her kid be safe.  She'd rather sacrifice them, than let anyone have an ounce of control over them other than her.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He is a hothead and certainly also a capable and exceptional man but he isn't like Jaime. Nobody is like Jaime Lannister.

Jaime himself knows he isn't "unique".  He fairly idolizes his fellow Kingsguard members from Aerys' day, and clearly doesn't believe he was superior to Arthur Dayne in, well, anything.  Again, Jaime believes that cynicism and sarcasm are the proper course for him; it's only once we get inside his head that he begins to be humanized and show personality (which is, of course, exactly what the author intends).

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He decided that a debt he owed to Tyrion justified to free the convicted murderer of his own son and king.

He can't be both his son and king.  Tyrion was accused of regicide.  If Joffrey isn't technically king (and he isn't, he has no claim on the throne), then his guilty verdict is null, so... shouldn't be in prison anyway.

Plus, Jaime is as aware as the reader that the whole trial is a sham, whether or not he believes Tyrion to be guilty.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And once Tyrion actually told him he killed his son he would have been obliged to actually arrest him again because Tyrion had admitted that he had killed the king.

Again, not the king.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, you do recall that Jaime wants to be an exemplary Lord Commander of the Kingsguard now, right? You know he spit his own father in the face to continue to be the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard before he freed Joffrey's murderer?

No, what Jaime wants is to be a better man as well as a better knight, and all of that is bound up in his various oaths.  A large part of all the Kingsguard stories is how they are all complicit in betraying their first and most important oath (to defend the weak), because the elite of Westeros have largely forgotten the substance of the chivalric code they all espouse, which is why characters like Brienne and Dunk are held up as being so inspiring, because despite not being knights, they embody all that is good about knighthood.  All of Aerys' Kingsguard are implicitly condemned for abetting the crimes Aerys' committed.  Jaime is one of the few people to push back against it, and the way in which defending the abusive power structure of Westeros corrupts the knightly code is an important subplot.  Jaime's time in the Kingsguard soils him, as it soils every other Kinsguard, because he's helping tyrants and drunks abuse or ignore their power and responsibility, and thus violating the oath he took when he became a knight.

And again, lets point out that Joffrey is not a legitimate king, which Jaime knows, and thus he has no real obligation to defend him.

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5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

This is silly.  Jaime's attitude changes genuinely because his entire sense of self-worth was caught up in his martial ability, which is now gone.  He has to do an entire self-reevaluation on the fly because his entire worldview has been torn down.  Once he's stripped of his privilege, he starts to realize how his actions have always been self-serving and maybe others deserve empathy.  Brienne, for example, justifies all that is good about Westerosi notions of knighthood, without actually being a knight.  Which in turn makes Jaime re-examine his own cynicism.

Can you back up that claim with some quotes? I'm interested on what you base this and whether we can actually see that Jaime actually empathizes with other people and to what degree. 

It is clear that Jaime sees himself in Brienne, his former self before he joined the Kingsguard, or a version of that. Back then Jaime still wanted to be a hero or a 'knight'. But that's not what he is and it isn't what he cares to be now. If that was what he wanted he would have left the Kingsguard.

5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

None of this makes him a genuinely good person, or atones for his earlier actions, but it's a character arc, not a teleportation from point A to point B.

Well, I'd sincerely doubt that Jaime genuinely changed as a person. He has other priorities now but his character is still the same. It is all about him, not about other people. He, too, sees other people as extensions or mirrors of himself, just as you think it is with Cersei. And I agree that it is true for her, too, although I'd doubt that she would see her children (only) in that way.

Jaime's approach to his children is especially ugly. Yes, he never could play the role of a father but he was still quite officially their uncle, and he shows no grief over Joffrey's death at all. None.

Just as he doesn't give a damn about Tywin's death. He goes through the motions and plays the role of the dutifully grieving son, etc. But he doesn't feel it. He sort of convinces himself that he didn't want Tyrion to kill Tywin but he isn't aghast or desperate about the whole thing, something he himself is directly responsible for.

Cersei is not much better there, but the only actual human being there is Kevan. He actually grieves. The twins do not.

5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

I don't agree.  Cersei doesn't love her kids.  She loves herself, and views her kids as extensions of herself.  For example, in the hottest part of the WOT5K, Myrcella gets sent from an extremely dangerous Kings Landing to Dorne, where she is objectively much safer.  Cersei is far more concerned with her child being taken from her, than she is in the benefit of having her kid be safe.  She'd rather sacrifice them, than let anyone have an ounce of control over them other than her.

Mothers often think they can better protect their children. This may be irrational or wrong, but it is not a sign that they see them as extensions of themselves. Also note that Cersei is right in her assessment of this stupid Martell match. It endangers Myrcella and got her nearly killed. And now she is disfigured for the remainder of her (short) life.

Your whole point there becomes also pretty moot in light of Cersei's plans to save Tommen from Stannis by getting him out of the city. She did not keep him close to keep him under control even in the face of mortal danger.

And pretty much all her actions in AFfC are done to ensure that her children, especially Tommen, are safe. The fact that she sucks as a mother and is not able to raise her son probably doesn't mean she doesn't love him and wants him to be a great king in his own right. She cannot make in such a king and whatever methods or parenting she uses are crude and ugly but nobody said she is a genius mother.

That she also enjoys her spot in the sunlight and to be finally able to exert some power is also not some evil crime or a sign that she is evil. Her actions certainly are evil and stupid, on occasion, but there is little chance that a person who rules the kingdom as regent grows to like that power. Both Cersei, Kevan, Tywin, etc. would all pretty much dread the day the king in whose name they are ruling will come of age and then decide to name a new Hand of his own choosing or pushing the people away who, for the previous years, presumed to rule the king.

That is why such people usually meet rather unpleasant ends after a king comes into his own.

5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Jaime himself knows he isn't "unique".  He fairly idolizes his fellow Kingsguard members from Aerys' day, and clearly doesn't believe he was superior to Arthur Dayne in, well, anything.  Again, Jaime believes that cynicism and sarcasm are the proper course for him; it's only once we get inside his head that he begins to be humanized and show personality (which is, of course, exactly what the author intends).

The boy was somewhat softer and he is rediscovering something of that, but this still doesn't mean everything isn't about him. I'm pretty sure Jaime didn't doubt that he was the new younger Arthur Dayne the day he got his white cloak from Aerys. That is how he sees himself. He never had any self-doubt. He still doesn't. He knows he is no longer a great fighter but he still uses the infamy of the Kingslayer and the power of his name and reputation of his family put other men in line and even intimidate and crush his enemies. Just remember how he channeled Tywin at Riverrun.

5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

He can't be both his son and king.  Tyrion was accused of regicide.  If Joffrey isn't technically king (and he isn't, he has no claim on the throne), then his guilty verdict is null, so... shouldn't be in prison anyway.

Plus, Jaime is as aware as the reader that the whole trial is a sham, whether or not he believes Tyrion to be guilty.

Again, not the king.

Your line of argument here is ridiculous. Joffrey is still Tyrion's nephew and Jaime's son. You do not kill your nephew nor do you forgive the murderer of your son.

And, no, Joffrey and Tommen are both Jaime's kings. He serves on their Kingsguard as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. If Jaime followed your line of reasoning then he wouldn't be the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

No, what Jaime wants is to be a better man as well as a better knight, and all of that is bound up in his various oaths.  A large part of all the Kingsguard stories is how they are all complicit in betraying their first and most important oath (to defend the weak), because the elite of Westeros have largely forgotten the substance of the chivalric code they all espouse, which is why characters like Brienne and Dunk are held up as being so inspiring, because despite not being knights, they embody all that is good about knighthood.  All of Aerys' Kingsguard are implicitly condemned for abetting the crimes Aerys' committed.  Jaime is one of the few people to push back against it, and the way in which defending the abusive power structure of Westeros corrupts the knightly code is an important subplot.  Jaime's time in the Kingsguard soils him, as it soils every other Kinsguard, because he's helping tyrants and drunks abuse or ignore their power and responsibility, and thus violating the oath he took when he became a knight.

And again, lets point out that Joffrey is not a legitimate king, which Jaime knows, and thus he has no real obligation to defend him.

Then why is Jaime making such a fuzz about not fucking Cersei in the White Tower? Why defies he Tywin over being the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? Why doesn't he just resign and become a knight?

Jaime doesn't really give a shit about the common people or protecting them. He is pissed about the fact that other people dare judge him while they, in his position, most likely wouldn't have had the guts to do what he did - kill the Mad King. But this doesn't mean that this was the right thing to do, or that Jaime killed Aerys because he gave a shit about the lives of the people of KL.

I'm willing to believe that he may have wanted to save his father and his men from the planned inferno. But not the townsfolk. What got to him at Aerys' court was Aerys' treatment of powerful lords like the Starks (and other 'traitors' he burned) and, of course, the way Aerys treated his wife. He is not a very intelligent or deep person, but standing around while an innocent woman was raped and injured by her own brother-husband got to him. That created a conflict and hate that was finally resolved by the murder of Aerys.

If you want to make a case that Jaime is some sort of second Dunk, or even motivated by the ideals smallfolk wants to see in a knight - knights protecting the innocents from the unjust oppression of the powerful (who usually also are knights) - then you would back that up with quotes. But I don't see any hint in the books that Jaime Lannister truly cares about the lives of innocents. Sometimes he is in a chivalric mood, but those are whims and impulses, and they don't go further than protecting women from rape. Which is fine and good but certainly nothing special. Pretty much every man should want to prevent rapes that are happening in front of their eyes. And Jaime got enough of that kind of thing at Aerys' court.

Jaime remaining faithful to Cersei also doesn't seem to be a good guy trait, by the way. It shows that he is content with Cersei. She is enough, because she is the only one deserving of him. The only one as perfect as he is. Other women are nothing but shadows in comparison to Cersei.

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She loves neither Jaime not her children. She only loves power. She fucks or seduce or uses anyone who can give her more of this. She uses her children to hold power. But she does nothing to protect them or care for their future.

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Very well said, @cpg2016! :cheers:

 

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

This is silly.  Jaime's attitude changes genuinely because his entire sense of self-worth was caught up in his martial ability, which is now gone.  He has to do an entire self-reevaluation on the fly because his entire worldview has been torn down.  Once he's stripped of his privilege, he starts to realize how his actions have always been self-serving and maybe others deserve empathy.  Brienne, for example, justifies all that is good about Westerosi notions of knighthood, without actually being a knight.  Which in turn makes Jaime re-examine his own cynicism.

None of this makes him a genuinely good person, or atones for his earlier actions, but it's a character arc, not a teleportation from point A to point B.

I don't agree.  Cersei doesn't love her kids.  She loves herself, and views her kids as extensions of herself.  For example, in the hottest part of the WOT5K, Myrcella gets sent from an extremely dangerous Kings Landing to Dorne, where she is objectively much safer.  Cersei is far more concerned with her child being taken from her, than she is in the benefit of having her kid be safe.  She'd rather sacrifice them, than let anyone have an ounce of control over them other than her.

Jaime himself knows he isn't "unique".  He fairly idolizes his fellow Kingsguard members from Aerys' day, and clearly doesn't believe he was superior to Arthur Dayne in, well, anything.  Again, Jaime believes that cynicism and sarcasm are the proper course for him; it's only once we get inside his head that he begins to be humanized and show personality (which is, of course, exactly what the author intends).

He can't be both his son and king.  Tyrion was accused of regicide.  If Joffrey isn't technically king (and he isn't, he has no claim on the throne), then his guilty verdict is null, so... shouldn't be in prison anyway.

Plus, Jaime is as aware as the reader that the whole trial is a sham, whether or not he believes Tyrion to be guilty.

Again, not the king.

 

No, what Jaime wants is to be a better man as well as a better knight, and all of that is bound up in his various oaths.  A large part of all the Kingsguard stories is how they are all complicit in betraying their first and most important oath (to defend the weak), because the elite of Westeros have largely forgotten the substance of the chivalric code they all espouse, which is why characters like Brienne and Dunk are held up as being so inspiring, because despite not being knights, they embody all that is good about knighthood.  All of Aerys' Kingsguard are implicitly condemned for abetting the crimes Aerys' committed.  Jaime is one of the few people to push back against it, and the way in which defending the abusive power structure of Westeros corrupts the knightly code is an important subplot.  Jaime's time in the Kingsguard soils him, as it soils every other Kinsguard, because he's helping tyrants and drunks abuse or ignore their power and responsibility, and thus violating the oath he took when he became a knight.

And again, lets point out that Joffrey is not a legitimate king, which Jaime knows, and thus he has no real obligation to defend him.

Very well said. Jaime is on a redemption arc while Cersei is on a bow or burn arc. The two sides of the same coin has now split.

Cersei loves no one but herself, always has, and that includes Jaime and her younger children by Jaime. When Jaime returns to her with his maimed hand and greyish stubbley face and different looking hair, Cersei is disgusted by him. This is because she is no longer having sex with "herself", and now Jaime is not as useful to her anymore.

Cersei loved Joffrey, even though she had trouble controlling him, and her comments about Tommen and Myrcella and the comparisons she draws as to how they are not like Joffrey also reflect this narrow minded ideal Cersei holds.

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3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Very well said. Jaime is on a redemption arc while Cersei is on a bow or burn arc. The two sides of the same coin has now split.

Cersei loves no one but herself, always has, and that includes Jaime and her younger children by Jaime. When Jaime returns to her with his maimed hand and greyish stubbley face and different looking hair, Cersei is disgusted by him. This is because she is no longer having sex with "herself", and now Jaime is not as useful to her anymore.

Cersei loved Joffrey, even though she had trouble controlling him, and her comments about Tommen and Myrcella and the comparisons she draws as to how they are not like Joffrey also reflect this narrow minded ideal Cersei holds.

:agree:

I really hate how she treats Tommen, how she uses him as leverage. This argument that "oh but no one can deny she loves her children" is bollocks, and I deny it vehemently. :)

 

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6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

:agree:

I really hate how she treats Tommen, how she uses him as leverage. This argument that "oh but no one can deny she loves her children" is bollocks, and I deny it vehemently. :)

 

Gods. I hope no one is making that statement and being serious about that. Cersei loved Joffrey, but she is phoning it in when it comes to her "love" for Tommen and Myrcella.

  • Tommen had never been as robust as Joffrey.
  • Her brother had been such a pretty boy . . . but fierce as well, as fierce as Joffrey, a true lion cub.
  • Tommen did as he was bid. His meekness troubled her. A king had to be strong. Joffrey would have argued. He was never easy to cow. "Don't slump so," she told Tommen. "Sit like a king. Put your shoulders back and straighten your crown. Do you want it to tumble off your head in front of all your lords?"
  • Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy . . ."
    "Joffrey." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirts around her legs. "Your brother's name was Joffrey. He would never have shamed me so."
    "I never meant to. I wasn't frightened, Mother. It was only that your lord father smelled so bad . . ."

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13 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

She loves neither Jaime not her children. She only loves power. She fucks or seduce or uses anyone who can give her more of this. She uses her children to hold power. But she does nothing to protect them or care for their future.

That is because she is about as stupid as Jaime. Nobody taught her how to hold to power, nor did she have caring parents who taught her how to raise her children properly. Not to mention that noble parents didn't exactly spend much time with their children anyway.

Cersei also doesn't have to use seduction or sex as a coin to bend anybody to her will. She used Lancel to distract and entertain herself, not to get him to do what she wanted. Tywin had made it clear that the boys were to obey the queen in all things when they were made Robert's squires. She used sex to bind the Kettleblacks to her, yes, but that didn't give him a lot of power she did not already have, it ensured she could use them as tools to do some rather dirty work - like killing the High Septon.

 

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Very well said. Jaime is on a redemption arc while Cersei is on a bow or burn arc. The two sides of the same coin has now split.

We have to wait and see about that. Jaime can get off the hook for Aerys, and perhaps even for Rhaegar's children. But not for Bran. He'll come and collect that particular debt. And it might involve some entrails dangling on the branches of the heart tree of Winterfell.

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Cersei loves no one but herself, always has, and that includes Jaime and her younger children by Jaime. When Jaime returns to her with his maimed hand and greyish stubbley face and different looking hair, Cersei is disgusted by him. This is because she is no longer having sex with "herself", and now Jaime is not as useful to her anymore.

That is a wrong view of their relationship. You have to ignore crucial parts of her chapters and interactions with Jaime to reach that one-sided conclusion. For one, she doesn't like his new looks and the loss of his hand. But that's not inherently wrong. Many people have trouble when their spouses suddenly look different and behave differently. And while it shows a lack of empathy not to care for your brother-lover having lost his hand this doesn't mean she doesn't love him as deeply and as honestly as she can. It is quite clear that she does. You may not like that but it is not up to you to tell Cersei what she feels or doesn't feel.

Then there is the fact that she comes to Jaime again in the White Sword Tower to love him and be close to him where he then rejects her for no good reason while he took her earlier in the sept in the presence of their dead son. That is Jaime pushing back Cersei because of his newly found - and quite ridiculous sense of piety -, not the other way around. It is also Jaime who stresses the importance of his own needs and desires by trying to push Cersei to marry him, never mind what that's going to mean for their children, instead of actually thinking for once.

Then we also have Cersei first thinking of Jaime as the new Hand after Tywin's death. She wants them to rule together, effectively as husband and wife without being married. She only lashes out after he brusquely rejects her for no good reason.

And then there is the letter, of course. They have issues and a quarrel in AFfC. They are trying to figure out the new relationship they are having. At least on Cersei's part. For this is never over. She sent him away because she was pissed but she did expect him to come back. And then, when she fears for her life, she asks him for help, nobody else. Despite Jaime's crippling injury the first and only man she is thinking about as a savior is Jaime. If that's not love I don't what love is. Any sane person would have realized that this would be stupidity but it is Cersei's love for Jaime that makes her think that he would never lose with her life at stake. That doesn't even cross her mind.

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Cersei loved Joffrey, even though she had trouble controlling him, and her comments about Tommen and Myrcella and the comparisons she draws as to how they are not like Joffrey also reflect this narrow minded ideal Cersei holds.

One can criticize Cersei for her skills as a mother and her favoritism - it is also quite clear that Catelyn, let's be honest, doesn't care all that much about most of her children. Bran's fall drove her half mad. If the same thing had happened to Robb-Sansa-Arya-Rickon she would also have grieved, but not in this way. He is, for whatever reason, her favorite. Cersei preferred Joffrey over Tommen. And we don't know how close she was to Myrcella. But she is certainly aghast and very troubled by what happened to her in Dorne. 

Cersei is not qualified to make Tommen into a good king or decent human being. But this has nothing to do with the question whether she loves him or not. You can love your children and still fail to properly raise them. That is what Cersei's doing. Her bossing around Tommen isn't a sign that she doesn't love the boy. It is clear she didn't spend all that much time with him before and now that he is king she treats him as she treated Joffrey, trying to get him to rebel and stand up for himself and his rights. That's what she thinks a king should do. It is the wrong way to deal with a child like Tommen, of course, but let's be honest. Tommen would suck as a king. He is a nice and lonely child but not suited to king of anything. If he hadn't his mother and other family to protect him he would be dead in a fortnight. The Tyrells and others only see him as an asset to exploit, not a person they owe any true loyalty to. 

And Cersei is, of course, also completely right that a king showing the kind of weakness Tommen shows at the funeral of his grandfather and during other occasions isn't going to be seen as a strong king. People will note that and use it against him later on. He not suited for the role he finds himself in but if doesn't learn how to survive he simply won't survive. And that's why Tommen is going to die, of course. That was clear long before we heard the prophecy. A child like he is not going to remain king in George's world.

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And I just realized something, George said Cersei and Daenerys are parallels to each other, and both have three children of whom they really only "love" their favorite one. The other two are ignored and can't live up to the grandeur of the main child. 

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32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And I just realized something, George said Cersei and Daenerys are parallels to each other, and both have three children of whom they really only "love" their favorite one. The other two are ignored and can't live up to the grandeur of the main child. 

Well, that could certainly be true. Do you have a source for that?

But it is quite clear that Cersei, at least, has some affection for Tommen and Myrcella. Else she wouldn't care for them at all. Viserion and Rhaegal will have to fend for themselves now, anyway. Daenerys has bonded with Drogon and even if she wanted to ride them, too, she can't. Not while Drogon is alive.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that could certainly be true. Do you have a source for that?

You should know me better than that by now. Of course I do. 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is quite clear that Cersei, at least, has some affection for Tommen and Myrcella. Else she wouldn't care for them at all. Viserion and Rhaegal will have to fend for themselves now, anyway. Daenerys has bonded with Drogon and even if she wanted to ride them, too, she can't. Not while Drogon is alive.

It's quite clear Cersei loves when people do things for her. She doesn't love anyone but herself... and Joffrey when he was a shit. 

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Somehow I think I've become a Cersei supporter/apologist/defender (not sure what the right word is). It really annoys me when people say Cersei does not love her children and/or Jaime. It just too simplistic of an interpretation imo. Cersei does love Jaime and her children. It's an unhealthy twisted sort of love, but it's love nonetheless. The tragedy of Cersei is that she never learned how to love in a healthy way and that issue is partially why she is the way she is. 

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14 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

Somehow I think I've become a Cersei supporter/apologist/defender (not sure what the right word is). It really annoys me when people say Cersei does not love her children and/or Jaime. It just too simplistic of an interpretation imo. Cersei does love Jaime and her children. It's an unhealthy twisted sort of love, but it's love nonetheless. The tragedy of Cersei is that she never learned how to love in a healthy way and that issue is partially why she is the way she is. 

You win. 

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52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is because she is about as stupid as Jaime. Nobody taught her how to hold to power, nor did she have caring parents who taught her how to raise her children properly. Not to mention that noble parents didn't exactly spend much time with their children anyway.

She isn't stupid.  Or not entirely.  But like many people who scheme to get power, she doesn't know how to wield it.  Both Jaime and Cersei are reasonably intelligent by the standards of their peers, and somewhat cunning.  But Jaime has subliminated his whole sense of self to his fighting ability, and once it's gone, he goes off the deep end in the other direction to try and find meaning.  And as I said (and is said about her), while Cersei is intelligent, she's never been in the position Jaime is in now, where her entire worldview has come crashing down and forced her to re-evaluate herself and her choices, and thus she continues to fall prey to her weaknesses.  She's a victim of her own success, in many way.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She used sex to bind the Kettleblacks to her, yes, but that didn't give him a lot of power she did not already have, it ensured she could use them as tools to do some rather dirty work - like killing the High Septon.

Well it did give her power - who was going to do that for her before she slept with the Kettleblacks?

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have to wait and see about that. Jaime can get off the hook for Aerys, and perhaps even for Rhaegar's children. But not for Bran. He'll come and collect that particular debt. And it might involve some entrails dangling on the branches of the heart tree of Winterfell.

I'm not sure you understand what an "arc" is all about.  We'll call you "narratively challenged" and make up a new word in the process!  Jaime isn't going to be forgiven, but he's on his way to being a better person through self-reflection and the emergence of a person worth emulating (Brienne).  He isn't on the hook for Aerys, which was a good deed, and certainly not for Rhaegar's kids, who he had nothing to do with.  And no, he won't "get off the hook" for Bran.  As show!Stannis says, a good deed doesn't cancel out a bad, nor a bad deed a good.  Jaime may end being a truer reflection of knighthood by the end of the novels, but that doesn't exculpate him for his bad deeds.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And while it shows a lack of empathy not to care for your brother-lover having lost his hand this doesn't mean she doesn't love him as deeply and as honestly as she can. It is quite clear that she does. You may not like that but it is not up to you to tell Cersei what she feels or doesn't feel.

Of course.  But whether she actually ever loved him in the first place is highly debatable.  She loves herself.  She likes sleeping with Jaime because it feels like sleeping with herself.  We can't tell Cersei what to feel, but we can certainly look critically at what those feelings are.  She's emotionally manipulative towards Jaime throughout their lives, and he only untethers himself from that when Brienne comes around.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Then there is the fact that she comes to Jaime again in the White Sword Tower to love him and be close to him where he then rejects her for no good reason while he took her earlier in the sept in the presence of their dead son

Did we read the same books?  She comes to him to ask for his help in something that has nothing to do with him.  And when he refuses, she tries to use sex to manipulate him, as she's done at least once before at a critical juncture (his joining the Kingsguard).  He recognizes that she's there to use him, not to be close to him.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is also Jaime who stresses the importance of his own needs and desires by trying to push Cersei to marry him, never mind what that's going to mean for their children, instead of actually thinking for once.

See, Jaime wants to be honest about their relationship.  Cersei cares more about her children's political future; it's a little late to be concerned for that, decades and 3 incestuous kids later.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Then we also have Cersei first thinking of Jaime as the new Hand after Tywin's death. She wants them to rule together, effectively as husband and wife without being married. She only lashes out after he brusquely rejects her for no good reason.

No, she wants him to rule because she is convinced she can manipulate him.  Jaime has always done exactly what Cersei wants; having him as Hand means she can keep as much power consolidated in her own hands as possible.  And he doesn't reject her for "no good reason".  He doesn't think he's qualified to be Hand, which is pretty self evidently true.  Cersei doesn't want a co-ruler, she wants a patsy.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Despite Jaime's crippling injury the first and only man she is thinking about as a savior is Jaime

She has literally no one else worth asking.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei's love for Jaime that makes her think that he would never lose with her life at stake. That doesn't even cross her mind.

Cersei loves Cersei.  That's it, full stop.  She doesn't care about her kids or brother.  They are reflections of herself.  In every instance where she might make a choice that isn't selfish, she opts out.  If she occasionally does good by her family, it's only because what's good for the goos is good for the gander.  And she often is seen making awful decisions for her kids/family that she thinks are positives for herself.

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14 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

Somehow I think I've become a Cersei supporter/apologist/defender (not sure what the right word is). It really annoys me when people say Cersei does not love her children and/or Jaime. It just too simplistic of an interpretation imo. Cersei does love Jaime and her children. It's an unhealthy twisted sort of love, but it's love nonetheless. The tragedy of Cersei is that she never learned how to love in a healthy way and that issue is partially why she is the way she is. 

She loves them as extensions of herself, not as people.  An unhealthy twisted sort of love, isn't love.  It's like saying pedophiles love little boys, and we should defend that.  It's absurd on it's face.  "Love" isn't a magic word to excuse all actions; "love" can be immoral and wrong.  Cersei's is such a love.

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On 7/10/2017 at 0:20 PM, kissdbyfire said:

No, she doesn't. She loves to see her own reflection in Jaime, but that's it. And he's finally aware of it and over her.

 

This is basically what I came here to say.  Cersei is a narcissist to the extreme.  I do think she loves her children but I don't think she is capable of loving another person.  For her, sex with fat Robert is repulsive simply because he is beneath her standard, and Osmund Kettleblack because he puts her in the submissive position and she is incapable of dealing with it.  All of her personal interactions are about her, whether it's sex, power, or even with intelligence.  That's how narcissism works - they don't get validation from within but they have to wreck others to achieve their version of a normal mental state.

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6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You should know me better than that by now. Of course I do. 

Well, I really would like to see what interview/video that is...

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's quite clear Cersei loves when people do things for her. She doesn't love anyone but herself... and Joffrey when he was a shit. 

Cersei overlooks Joffrey's flaws, as many parents do. That is actually a sign that she loved Joffrey. A parent that was more emotionally detached from Joffrey - like Robert was - would have seen the little shit for what he actually was. But Cersei could not and would not see that.

And Cersei doesn't really like the whole thing of others doing things for her. She wants to do things herself. That's why she clings to power when she finally has it. And I find that actually a rather sympathetic trait in her. People tried to push her in the backseat and belittled her all her life. And you certainly have to admire her for how she outmaneuvered Ned. What she did back then she really did for her children, not herself.

Oh, and just think of that moment in ACoK when Cersei is actually openly and genuinely happy when Tyrion delivers her the news of Renly and Stannis fighting each other. That is all genuine happiness and sisterly affection. Cersei and Tyrion were never that close but even they had some sort of proper sibling relationship until Tyrion made his mad threats against her. Threats that included killing her children, if you recall.

13 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

Somehow I think I've become a Cersei supporter/apologist/defender (not sure what the right word is). It really annoys me when people say Cersei does not love her children and/or Jaime. It just too simplistic of an interpretation imo. Cersei does love Jaime and her children. It's an unhealthy twisted sort of love, but it's love nonetheless. The tragedy of Cersei is that she never learned how to love in a healthy way and that issue is partially why she is the way she is. 

Jaime is just as much to blame for the incest thing than Cersei is. And it could have been much more healthier if they had just revealed it to the world and played the Targaryen card. It could have worked if they had done that before Jaime joined the KG or Cersei married anyone.

And, hell, even if they had been forced to keep it a secret, just think how much different both would have been had they just refused to wed, remaining at Casterly Rock and raising Cersei's bastards from an unknown man together. Or they could have married Cersei in a fake ceremony to some cousin to prevent her from giving birth to bastards. But I'd think that they wouldn't have had the grace to keep it quiet that way.

It is the secrecy of their love that twists it over the years. Jaime wouldn't have tried to kill Bran had he not felt the need to do so to protect his own life, the life of his sister, and the lives of his children.

And we can certainly agree that Cersei is a tendency to paranoia. That is is rash, hotheaded, that she can be stupid, and that she is clearly capable of murder.

But all that doesn't mean she does not love Jaime and her children. She very much does.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

She isn't stupid.  Or not entirely.  But like many people who scheme to get power, she doesn't know how to wield it. 

That is a weird statement. You can scheme to get power and know how to wield it, and you can scheme to get power and not know how to wield it. The idea that people who scheme to get power don't understand power is usually wrong. In fact, if you look at politics today those people who scheme to get power usually understand it best. They usually are the people ruling us. You usually don't rise through the ranks of a party or a political system if you don't know how to scheme and destroy your rivals. 

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Both Jaime and Cersei are reasonably intelligent by the standards of their peers, and somewhat cunning.  But Jaime has subliminated his whole sense of self to his fighting ability, and once it's gone, he goes off the deep end in the other direction to try and find meaning.  And as I said (and is said about her), while Cersei is intelligent, she's never been in the position Jaime is in now, where her entire worldview has come crashing down and forced her to re-evaluate herself and her choices, and thus she continues to fall prey to her weaknesses.  She's a victim of her own success, in many way.

That isn't true either. Cersei's entire world was destroyed by Tyrion when he (allegedly) killed both Joffrey and Tywin. And prior to that she also lost much of her self and her confidence when she lost Jaime in AGoT. She didn't lose any of her body parts but the woman we meet in AGoT isn't the same as paranoid woman whose POV we first get in AFfC. 

And Jaime personality isn't this fighter guy. He is also the Kingslayer and the secret lover of his sister. Especially the latter is a huge part of his personality, and neither of that is gone.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Well it did give her power - who was going to do that for her before she slept with the Kettleblacks?

If that's what you meant you should perhaps have phrased it differently. Cersei used seduction as a means to get certain people to do what she wanted, but it is was not done from a position of powerlessness. She was the Queen Regent when she entertained all those affairs.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

I'm not sure you understand what an "arc" is all about.  We'll call you "narratively challenged" and make up a new word in the process!  Jaime isn't going to be forgiven, but he's on his way to being a better person through self-reflection and the emergence of a person worth emulating (Brienne).  

I know what an arc is but sincerely doubt that Jaime is becoming a better person. For that, he would have to do something good for once. But he didn't. He took Riverrun from the Blackfish, after all, threatening the lives of Edmure Tully's wife and unborn child in a very ugly way in the process. And then he is wondering why anybody hates and despises him.

Oh, I don't doubt that Jaime wants to be a better person now, but only to be more happy with himself, not because he actually cares about other people. But it is quite clear that it is very unlikely that anybody will ever believe he has changed.

And quite honestly, do you think Catelyn will it make easy for him? Jaime is at her mercy now, and that means she will make him do very unpleasant things should she allow him to live at all.

Brienne was a positive mirror for him back in ASoS, but is she still going to have that function for him after what Biter and Catelyn did to her? Will Jaime forgive that Brienne lured him into a trap - a trap that most likely will force him to participate in and watch helplessly while Catelyn cruelly kills his aunt Genna after she has taken Riverrun?

What do you think will remain of 'I'd like to be good'-Jaime after that?

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

He isn't on the hook for Aerys, which was a good deed, and certainly not for Rhaegar's kids, who he had nothing to do with.

You should reread the books if you believe that. Jaime is accused of being responsible for the death of Rhaegar's wife and children by the ghosts in the weirwood dream and he feels guilty about that. And her certainly is. Had he done his duty as Kingsguard and protected the king's family - Rhaegar's family - Tywin's men wouldn't have killed them. Or do you think Gregor and Lorch would have dared to harm them if Jaime had been in charge of their protection. Instead he killed Rhaegar's father.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Of course.  But whether she actually ever loved him in the first place is highly debatable.  She loves herself.  She likes sleeping with Jaime because it feels like sleeping with herself.

And vice versa. Jaime also loves Cersei because she reminds him of himself. But that's only part of their relationship. They are twins who grew up together. They know each other inside out.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

We can't tell Cersei what to feel, but we can certainly look critically at what those feelings are.  She's emotionally manipulative towards Jaime throughout their lives, and he only untethers himself from that when Brienne comes around.

No, he does not. While he is with Brienne he only thinks about getting back to Cersei, and he continues to think that even after he has gotten back. He only grows really angry at Cersei when Tyrion tells him about her (alleged) affairs. That's what gnawing at him in AFfC and ADwD. Petty jealousy and a sense of betrayal.

Brienne and especially his weirwood dream also had an effect on him, as did the loss of his hand. But that affected his self-image, not his feelings for Cersei. The only blow in that direction comes from the dream where Bloodraven puts Cersei against Jaime and pairs him with Brienne. Those are not his own thoughts, that's an outside force messing with and manipulating his mind and emotions.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Did we read the same books?  She comes to him to ask for his help in something that has nothing to do with him.  And when he refuses, she tries to use sex to manipulate him, as she's done at least once before at a critical juncture (his joining the Kingsguard).  He recognizes that she's there to use him, not to be close to him.

I give you here a lengthy quote from that conversation. It shows the genuine affection and love Cersei and Jaime still feel for each other even after he lost his hand:

Quote

But when he stepped into his bedchamber, he found his sister waiting for him.
She stood beside the open window, looking over the curtain walls and out to sea. The bay wind swirled around her, flattening her gown against her body in a way that quickened Jaime’s pulse. It was white, that gown, like the hangings on the wall and the draperies on his bed. Swirls of tiny emeralds brightened the ends of her wide sleeves and spiraled down her bodice. Larger emeralds were set in the golden spiderweb that bound her golden hair. The gown was cut low, to bare her shoulders and the tops of her breasts. She is so beautiful. He wanted nothing more than to take her in his arms.
“Cersei.” He closed the door softly. “Why are you here?”
“Where else could I go?” When she turned to him there were tears in her eyes. “Father’s made it clear that I am no longer wanted on the council. Jaime, won’t you talk to him?”
Jaime took off his cloak and hung it from a peg on the wall. “I talk to Lord Tywin every day.”
“Must you be so stubborn? All he wants . . .”
“. . . is to force me from the Kingsguard and send me back to Casterly Rock.”
“That need not be so terrible. He is sending me back to Casterly Rock as well. He wants me far away, so he’ll have a free hand with Tommen. Tommen is my son, not his!”
“Tommen is the king.”
“He is a boy! A frightened little boy who saw his brother murdered at his own wedding. And now they are telling him that he must marry. The girl is twice his age and twice a widow!”
He eased himself into a chair, trying to ignore the ache of bruised muscles. “The Tyrells are insisting. I see no harm in it. Tommen’s been lonely since Myrcella went to Dorne. He likes having Margaery and her ladies about. Let them wed.”
“He is your son . . .”
“He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.”
“To keep them safe! You as well. How would it have looked if my brother had played the father to the king’s children? Even Robert might have grown suspicious.”
“Well, he’s beyond suspicion now.” Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.” When I still had two of them. “If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . .”
“Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.”
“I’d waited long enough. I hated watching Robert stumble to your bed every night, always wondering if maybe this night he’d decide to claim his rights as husband.” Jaime suddenly remembered something else that troubled him about Winterfell. “At Riverrun, Catelyn Stark seemed convinced I’d sent some footpad to slit her son’s throat. That I’d given him a dagger.”
“That,” she said scornfully. “Tyrion asked me about that.”
“There was a dagger. The scars on Lady Catelyn’s hands were real enough, she showed them to me. Did you . . . ?”
“Oh, don’t be absurd.” Cersei closed the window. “Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children,’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.”
Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. “Were you alone when Robert said this?”
“You don’t think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. “Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?”
It was meant as mockery, but she’d cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. “Not Myrcella. Joffrey.”
Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself.”
“A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.” He had an uncomfortable thought. “Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey’s work, that might be why . . .”
“I don’t care why,” Cersei said. “He can take his reasons down to hell with him. If you had seen how Joff died . . . he fought, Jaime, he fought for every breath, but it was as if some malign spirit had its hands about his throat. He had such terror in his eyes . . . When he was little, he’d run to me when he was scared or hurt and I would protect him. But that night there was nothing I could do. Tyrion murdered him in front of me, and there was nothing I could do.” Cersei sank to her knees before his chair and took Jaime’s good hand between both of hers. “Joff is dead and Myrcella’s in Dorne. Tommen’s all I have left. You mustn’t let Father take him from me. Jaime, please.”
“Lord Tywin has not asked for my approval. I can talk to him, but he will not listen . . .”
“He will if you agree to leave the Kingsguard.”
“I’m not leaving the Kingsguard.”
His sister fought back tears. “Jaime, you’re my shining knight. You cannot abandon me when I need you most! He is stealing my son, sending me away . . . and unless you stop him, Father is going to force me to wed again!”
Jaime should not have been surprised, but he was. The words were a blow to his gut harder than any that Ser Addam Marbrand had dealt him. “Who?”
“Does it matter? Some lord or other. Someone Father thinks he needs. I don’t care. I will not have another husband. You are the only man I want in my bed, ever again.”
“Then tell him that!”
She pulled her hands away. “You are talking madness again. Would you have us ripped apart, as Mother did that time she caught us playing? Tommen would lose the throne, Myrcella her marriage . . . I want to be your wife, we belong to each other, but it can never be, Jaime. We are brother and sister.”
“The Targaryens . . .”
“We are not Targaryens!”
“Quiet,” he said, scornfully. “So loud, you’ll wake my Sworn Brothers. We can’t have that, now, can we? People might learn that you had come to see me.”
“Jaime,” she sobbed, “don’t you think I want it as much as you do? It makes no matter who they wed me to, I want you at my side, I want you in my bed, I want you inside me. Nothing has changed between us. Let me prove it to you.” She pushed up his tunic and began to fumble with the laces of his breeches.
Jaime felt himself responding. “No,” he said, “not here.” They had never done it in White Sword Tower, much less in the Lord Commander’s chambers. “Cersei, this is not the place.”
“You took me in the sept. This is no different.” She drew out his cock and bent her head over it.
Jaime pushed her away with the stump of his right hand. “No. Not here, I said.” He forced himself to stand.
For an instant he could see confusion in her bright green eyes, and fear as well. Then rage replaced it. Cersei gathered herself together, got to her feet, straightened her skirts. “Was it your hand they hacked off in Harrenhal, or your manhood?” As she shook her head, her hair tumbled around her bare white shoulders. “I was a fool to come. You lacked the courage to avenge Joffrey, why would I think that you’d protect Tommen? Tell me, if the Imp had killed all three of your children, would that have made you wroth?”
“Tyrion is not going to harm Tommen or Myrcella. I am still not certain he killed Joffrey.”
Her mouth twisted in anger. “How can you say that? After all his threats—”
“Threats mean nothing. He swears he did not do it.”
“Oh, he swears, is that it? And dwarfs don’t lie, is that what you think?”
“Not to me. No more than you would.”
“You great golden fool. He’s lied to you a thousand times, and so have I.” She bound up her hair again, and scooped up the hairnet from the bedpost where she’d hung it. “Think what you will. The little monster is in a black cell, and soon Ser Ilyn will have his head off. Perhaps you’d like it for a keepsake.” She glanced at the pillow. “He can watch over you as you sleep alone in that cold white bed. Until his eyes rot out, that is.”
“You had best go, Cersei. You’re making me angry.”
“Oh, an angry cripple. How terrifying.” She laughed. “A pity Lord Tywin Lannister never had a son. I could have been the heir he wanted, but I lacked the cock. And speaking of such, best tuck yours away, brother. It looks rather sad and small, hanging from your breeches like that.”

Cersei grows angry when Jaime rejects her advances, she grows angry because he doesn't want to sleep with her in the tower. She does not grow angry because he doesn't do what she wants. Nobody ever said she doesn't grow angry when Jaime pushes her back or she doesn't get what she wants. That's her natural reaction. But she will cool down and then things usually go back to normal. That they don't, this time, is because Jaime pushes her back again and again, and makes no attempt straighten things out.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

See, Jaime wants to be honest about their relationship.  Cersei cares more about her children's political future; it's a little late to be concerned for that, decades and 3 incestuous kids later.

I guess you know who fathered those three children, no? And you are aware that telling the truth about them would most likely meant that they are going to be killed, right? It is pretty ridiculous how you are accusing Cersei of not loving her children when she is the parent who tries to protect them while their father simply doesn't care.

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

No, she wants him to rule because she is convinced she can manipulate him.  Jaime has always done exactly what Cersei wants; having him as Hand means she can keep as much power consolidated in her own hands as possible.  And he doesn't reject her for "no good reason".  He doesn't think he's qualified to be Hand, which is pretty self evidently true.  Cersei doesn't want a co-ruler, she wants a patsy.

That is not what she thinks and says in her chapter. She first thinks about Jaime whenever she is afraid because he loves and protects her. He is strong, he is her champion, she loves him. She doesn't sit there, cold and calculating, using her feminine wiles to make a puppet out of him. She only decides that she wants a patsy when Kevan rejects her, too. She is willing to work both with Kevan but both reject her. 

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

She has literally no one else worth asking.

That is only partly true. She could ask another Kingsguard. Or she could try to find around the trial-by-combat situation. And Qyburn points out Jaime's shortcomings as a champion. 

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Cersei loves Cersei.  That's it, full stop.  She doesn't care about her kids or brother.  They are reflections of herself.  In every instance where she might make a choice that isn't selfish, she opts out.  If she occasionally does good by her family, it's only because what's good for the goos is good for the gander.  And she often is seen making awful decisions for her kids/family that she thinks are positives for herself.

That is just not true.

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jealously, manipulative, reliance on ME ME ME ME, isolating, promising fresh starts, asking-insisting, irrational behavior, leverage,  protective, controlling, promising a better future... 

all bad signs of a  unhealthy relationship

 

topic title should be Why does Jaime stay in a unhealthy relationship?

Is Cersei capable of having a healthy relationship with ANYONE?

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