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Does Cersei really love Jaime?

132 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And the funny thing is that he is constantly failing at becoming a better man. Just look how he ended the siege of Riverrun. He was disgusting there to Edmure and the Blackfish but he didn't seem to grasp how fucked-up his threats were. Nobody in Westeros realizes the Kingslayer is trying to be a better person.

This is simply wrong. Jaime flat out thinks how disgusting his threat to Edmure was and it was so by design in order for Edmure to give in. 

Yes, Jaime does want to be looked at as a better person but that doesn't mean that if he does something that further ruins his reputation then Jaime is doing it without realizing it. In the situation with Edmure Jaime deliberately reinforces his bad image in order to capture Riverrun without bloodshed. Later in Raventree Hall he does the same and makes sure everyone remembers there that he is Kingslayer without honour. And this is not just my weird interpretation. It is plainly written in the text. Hence your conclusion that Jaime's current goal is to improve his image is wrong. 

Edited by Dofs

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

This is simply wrong. Jaime flat out thinks how disgusting his threat to Edmure was and it was so by design in order for Edmure to give in. 

Yes, Jaime does want to be looked at as a better person but that doesn't mean that if he does something that further ruins his reputation then Jaime is doing it without realizing it. In the situation with Edmure Jaime deliberately reinforces his bad image in order to capture Riverrun without bloodshed. Later in Raventree Hall he does the same and makes sure everyone remembers there that he is Kingslayer without honour. And this is not just my weird interpretation. It is plainly written in the text. Hence your conclusion that Jaime's current goal is to improve his image is wrong. 

It is his desire, though. He dreams about being known one day as Goldenhand the Just. And he actually thinks the way he handled the Riverrun situation was 'better' or 'less cruel' than what Tywin would have done in his stead. He actually thinks he kept the vow he swore to Cat that he is never going to take up arms against House Stark and House Tully. He thinks threatening and blackmailing Edmure into giving up Riverrun without a fight is an improvement.

It is not. And he'll soon learn that.

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She thinks she loved him, so who are we to say whether that's "real" or not? 

They're like overgrown teenagers, they think it's them against the world. It's very physical, they get off on the excitement and the secrecy, in addition to the regular, ya know, getting off. Cersei loves the idea of having a knight in shining armor, there to protect her and do her bidding even when her husband won't, and she loves the idea of mentally giving Robert the finger every time she and Jaime hook up. Meanwhile, Jaime idealizes Cersei as his beautiful maiden queen. 

When their true colors start to show, things sour. Cersei realizes that Jaime isn't just her lover and employee anymore, and Jaime realizes that Cersei's fucking crazy. 

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51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is his desire, though. He dreams about being known one day as Goldenhand the Just.

He desires, he hopes to be known as such one day, it's not the goal of his actions. He doesn't do anything to specifically achieve this or to manipulate the general public to think of him better. Him reinforcing his bad reputation in his campaign in Riverrun shows it.

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And he actually thinks the way he handled the Riverrun situation was 'better' or 'less cruel' than what Tywin would have done in his stead.

You are making it up.

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He actually thinks he kept the vow he swore to Cat that he is never going to take up arms against House Stark and House Tully.

And he didn't? Did he take up arms against House Stark and House Tully there?

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He thinks threatening and blackmailing Edmure into giving up Riverrun without a fight is an improvement.

He never thinks that this is an improvement over anything. I have no idea from where do you take all this.

Jaime also doesn't think anywhere that the way he handled Riverrun improved his reputation, even for a bit. He doesn't think anywhere that it was a movement towards the "Goldenhand the Just" dream. The threat was a dick move and Jaime perfectly knows it and believes it only reinforced his Kingslayer image, which, again, was the whole point. His satisfaction over not breaking the vow was not because he deluded himself that his reputation was getting better, it was simply a personal content over not breaking a vow because Jaime simply doesn't like breaking vows.

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36 minutes ago, LittleScorpion said:

She thinks she loved him, so who are we to say whether that's "real" or not? 

They're like overgrown teenagers, they think it's them against the world. It's very physical, they get off on the excitement and the secrecy, in addition to the regular, ya know, getting off. Cersei loves the idea of having a knight in shining armor, there to protect her and do her bidding even when her husband won't, and she loves the idea of mentally giving Robert the finger every time she and Jaime hook up. Meanwhile, Jaime idealizes Cersei as his beautiful maiden queen. 

When their true colors start to show, things sour. Cersei realizes that Jaime isn't just her lover and employee anymore, and Jaime realizes that Cersei's fucking crazy. 

Well, Cersei also doesn't (and can't, really) care about Jaime's problems, concerns, desires, feelings etc. She loves the loyal twin body, not really Jaime. That said, that's the only way Cersei can love someone. She loves her children in the exact same way. So it's really arguable if what Cersei can feel for another can be even called as love. Depends on one's definition, I guess.

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Well, Cersei also doesn't (and can't, really) care about Jaime's problems, concerns, desires, feelings etc. She loves the loyal twin body, not really Jaime. That said, that's the only way Cersei can love someone. She loves her children in the exact same way. So it's really arguable if what Cersei can feel for another can be even called as love. Depends on one's definition, I guess.

You're absolutely right, I just think it's difficult for us to objectively decide whether or not a character's love is valid or not. My theory is that if she says she loved him, they she loved him. I don't think it was a strong or healthy love at all, but there was something there. 

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Exactly. Jaime's love for Cersei is also conditional if we talk about that. He does not want to share her with Lancel, the Kettleblacks, or Moon Boy, or does he?

I don't see anything wrong with Jaime not wishing to share her with anyone else. She was married to Robert and that Jaime couldn't change. We don't know what exactly the agreement between the two were, but I don't think Cersei would think Jaime would be ok with her sleeping with other people. She did it any ways, ignoring how it would make Jaime feel.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Cersei and Jaime were in love for nearly two decades by the time she married Robert this is very unlikely. Jaime was with her throughout her marriage. The chances that their sexual relationship would have ended is very unlikely. Robert was a good-looking guy, sure, but he wasn't as handsome as Jaime. Very few men in Westeros are as handsome as Jaime.

Cersei said she was excited to be queen and was excited to sleep with Robert till he said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. I don't believe it bothered her too much how Jaime felt.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is quite clear that Cersei loves Jaime with all her heart. Even in AFfC and ADwD. From her point of view their present troubles is just a minor quarrel. They'll get over it. That's why she wrote him the letter she wrote. She doesn't understand that their relationship might be damaged permanently. 

 

Writing a letter when you are in trouble but ignoring Jaime otherwise is selfish.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, just as Jaime does. But then - it was not her decision to marry Robert. And as I lay out above she only seems to have had other sexual relationships after Jaime was gone - perhaps gone for good. I'd even wager that Cersei only took Lancel into her bed after word about Jaime's capture reached court - shortly after Joffrey had executed Ned. She would have expected that the Starks kill Jaime to avenge Ned and the thought would have terrified her. It would have been the moment where she was truly looking for solace.

We see it in Cersei's chapters in AFfC that she really needs company in bed - not just for sex but to not feel so lonely and afraid.

 

I don't judge Cersei seeking solace with someone else. It just doesn't seem loving to me. Someone above has a quote where Cersei had a problem sharing Jaime with other. A bit hypocritical.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You have to read the entire scene in detail. Cersei is desperate there. Their father wants to take power from her, wants to separate her children from her, wants to marry her to yet another man. She goes to Jaime for comfort and support and he rejects her. She is a proud woman and has a temper. She lashes out if somebody rejects her or makes a fool of her. But that doesn't mean she doesn't love him. 

Jaime is the one behaving childishly in that scene, not she. As I think I've laid out elsewhere in this thread Jaime is clearly the worse person in this relationship, especially in relation to their children. Jaime doesn't care about them at all. Sure, he couldn't be their father in public but he is still their uncle. Tyrion is their uncle, too, and he loves Myrcella and Tommen. Jaime has no feeling whatsoever for his children. He claims it is because Cersei made them Robert's children but that was inevitable.

Not to mention that mad idea of his that Cersei should marry Jaime. It would be nice and all but it would destroy the lives and legal claims of their children, children Jaime fathered and should care for as much as their mother does. Joffrey/Tommen on the Iron Throne should be as much Jaime's priority as it is Tywin's or Cersei's. But for Jaime his desire to publicly marry Cersei is the top priority.

Jaime didn't want to have sex with Cersei, it doesn't matter why. Cersei should've respected that.

Jaime isn't indifferent to his children. He contemplates telling them that he is their father. I think he resents that they think Robert is their father. I don't judge him for that either. And if I recall, Cersei didn't want him around them, lest someone suspect they were his.

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9 hours ago, Dofs said:

He desires, he hopes to be known as such one day, it's not the goal of his actions. He doesn't do anything to specifically achieve this or to manipulate the general public to think of him better. Him reinforcing his bad reputation in his campaign in Riverrun shows it.

He is setting things up to do just that. That's what he plans to do. That's why he decided to tell his children the truth about their parentage and publicly reveal that. He wants to destroy Tommen and Myrcella as royal children.

9 hours ago, Dofs said:

You are making it up.

And he didn't? Did he take up arms against House Stark and House Tully there?

LOL, yeah, he very much did. He threatened to kill Lady Tully, her unborn child, and all the people in Riverrun. If that's keeping his vow I don't know what's breaking it. And it is quite clear that Jaime meant what he said there. He would have sent in the Freys and the other Riverlanders if Edmure hadn't yielded. He had no other choice there.

9 hours ago, Dofs said:

He never thinks that this is an improvement over anything. I have no idea from where do you take all this.

He sure as hell thinks he kept his vow there since he did not actually sent in the troops. And might even trick himself into believing that he wouldn't have done that had Edmure not given in.

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

Well, Cersei also doesn't (and can't, really) care about Jaime's problems, concerns, desires, feelings etc. She loves the loyal twin body, not really Jaime. That said, that's the only way Cersei can love someone. She loves her children in the exact same way. So it's really arguable if what Cersei can feel for another can be even called as love. Depends on one's definition, I guess.

That is the same way Jaime thinks anyone else. The world is about Jaime Lannister and his desires. The man doesn't love Cersei as a person, he loves her as his second half. And unlike Cersei doesn't love his children nor keeps their best interests at heart. They had a father, they don't need their uncle to tell them that he is the real father and become abominations born of incest that way.

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't see anything wrong with Jaime not wishing to share her with anyone else. She was married to Robert and that Jaime couldn't change. We don't know what exactly the agreement between the two were, but I don't think Cersei would think Jaime would be ok with her sleeping with other people. She did it any ways, ignoring how it would make Jaime feel.

Jaime abandoned Cersei to her enemies. He heard about Tyrion and then he attacked Eddard Stark and his men on the streets of the capital, causing him to flee the city. Jaime didn't give shit about Cersei and their children at that moment, his priority was Tyrion and, presumably, the honor of House Lannister.

If your lover abandons you you don't owe him or her anything. Or at least that's what Cersei may have thought. She really thinks Jaime abandoned her and then failed her when he allowed Robb to capture him. And she is right there, actually.

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Cersei said she was excited to be queen and was excited to sleep with Robert till he said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. I don't believe it bothered her too much how Jaime felt.

That is not exactly what she said. Ned talks about how handsome the young Robert was and then asks Cersei why she hated him so much. Cersei might have gotten along better with Robert if he wouldn't have mentioned Lyanna in their first night, but the chances are about zero that she would have given up Jaime. Not to mention, you know, that Jaime would have been there all the time, trying to drive a wedge between Robert and Cersei.

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Writing a letter when you are in trouble but ignoring Jaime otherwise is selfish.

Running off to avenge Tyrion was selfish, too. Jaime is a Kingsguard and presumably also the sworn sword of the queen. He had no business attacking Ned or waging a war against the Tullys.

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't judge Cersei seeking solace with someone else. It just doesn't seem loving to me. Someone above has a quote where Cersei had a problem sharing Jaime with other. A bit hypocritical.

People aren't all the same. Jaime is a very weird individual, actually. A man with his looks, strength, abilities, wealth, and rank should have had hundreds of affairs. He must have a very low sex drive - which doesn't seem to be the case - or a very weird obsession with his twin sister. My guess is that Cersei simply is the only woman Jaime considered worthy of himself. It is not just Cersei who sees Jaime as an extension of herself. He does, too. 

We also see this with the Jaime-Tyrion relationship. Jaime likes and cares for Tyrion because they are both Lannisters. Lannisters are superior, they are the only people who really count. Cersei cannot include Tyrion in that elite group but Jaime can. But that doesn't make him a great human being.

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime didn't want to have sex with Cersei, it doesn't matter why. Cersei should've respected that.

But that's the thing - Jaime did want to have sex with Cersei. Just not in the room they were at that point. And that's silly behavior, especially after he forced himself on Cersei in the sept and in front of the corpse of their firstborn son.

The fact that Jaime even got aroused under those circumstances shows how, well, sick he actually is. I mean, what man would want to have sex in front of the corpse of his own son-nephew?

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime isn't indifferent to his children. He contemplates telling them that he is their father. I think he resents that they think Robert is their father. I don't judge him for that either. And if I recall, Cersei didn't want him around them, lest someone suspect they were his.

Jaime gives shitty advice to his son, Tommen - going away inside is advice how to create a psychopath not how to properly deal with your emotions. What ruined Jaime seems to have been his years with Aerys. He had to suffer through so much shit at such an early age that he lost his ability to empathize with people. The youth Jaime wouldn't have been able to murder Bran. The Kingslayer was. And one can even ask the question whether Jaime would have been willing to cuckold Robert, etc. if he hadn't been with Aerys.

The boy who joined the Kingsguard wanted to be a good man.

But back to the children thing. Jaime may not have a deep emotional connection with his children as their father. But again - he is their uncle. And he and Cersei spend a lot of time with the children. We see that in Winterfell during the breakfast. Not to mention that Jaime also seems to have been Cersei's sworn shield, being constantly around her, being with her during childbirth, etc.

You don't have to spend a lot of time with your nephews or nieces to feel emotionally attached to them. They are family. And you have a moral responsibility to care for them. The way Jaime does not care about Joffrey's murder is very irritating if you think about it. The boy was his son. If the man just cares about people he feels emotionally close then he is really as vapid as he appears. Emotional connections are well and good, but you also have obligations to your family. You don't need to love your brother or your son to want vengeance or justice if they are murdered.

And the idea that Jaime does his surviving children a kindness by actually telling them - and the world - the truth about their parentage is insane. It will destroy their future and threaten their very lives. Right now they Tommen is king and Myrcella his heir. They have a chance to rise as high as one can rise in this world, a chance to live a privileged life in splendor and power. If Jaime reveals the truth they will lose all that and gain only a cripple for a father. As bastards they won't even have claims to Casterly Rock. If they survived they might end up as commoners or little better than that.

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Posted (edited)

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He is setting things up to do just that.

He sets up nothing.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's why he decided to tell his children the truth about their parentage and publicly reveal that.

He decided to tell Tommen the truth and let him decide what he chooses.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, yeah, he very much did. He threatened to kill Lady Tully, her unborn child, and all the people in Riverrun. If that's keeping his vow I don't know what's breaking it.

Breaking a vow of not taking arms against someone is taking arms against someone.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is quite clear that Jaime meant what he said there. He would have sent in the Freys and the other Riverlanders if Edmure hadn't yielded. He had no other choice there.

Jaime didn't mean what he said in the threat to Edmure, the threat was a bluff from beginning to end. That said if Edmure hadn't yielded, Jaime would have indeed stormed the castle but he himself planned to be among the first to attack.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He sure as hell thinks he kept his vow there since he did not actually sent in the troops.

He was right?

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And might even trick himself into believing that he wouldn't have done that had Edmure not given in.

Jaime flat out thought he would have been braking the vow if he stormed the castle.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is the same way Jaime thinks anyone else. The world is about Jaime Lannister and his desires. The man doesn't love Cersei as a person, he loves her as his second half. And unlike Cersei doesn't love his children nor keeps their best interests at heart. They had a father, they don't need their uncle to tell them that he is the real father and become abominations born of incest that way

Everything here is wrong. I am again not sure from where you got all this. You just make stuff up about Jaime for some reason. Advice you to refresh your ASOIAF memory.

Edited by Dofs

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime abandoned Cersei to her enemies. He heard about Tyrion and then he attacked Eddard Stark and his men on the streets of the capital, causing him to flee the city. Jaime didn't give shit about Cersei and their children at that moment, his priority was Tyrion and, presumably, the honor of House Lannister.

If your lover abandons you you don't owe him or her anything. Or at least that's what Cersei may have thought. She really thinks Jaime abandoned her and then failed her when he allowed Robb to capture him. And she is right there, actually.

 

How exactly did Jaime abandon Cersei? Its not as though he left forever. And Jaime, just like an other human being, has obligations and ties beyond his lover. Its part of leading a healthy life (and Jaime didn't have enough of a life beyond Cersei IMO). Cersei and the children weren't in any imminent danger at that stage.

And as for being captured by Robb Stark, Jaime got captured performing his duty. One wouldn't blame war veterans for being captured, would they? (except maybe presidents..) Cersei can think what she likes, that doesn't make it reasonable. And I really don't judge Cersei for taking other lovers in Jaime's absence. But she had to know Jaime wouldn't be ok with it and she didn't care. Nor was she honest about it.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not exactly what she said. Ned talks about how handsome the young Robert was and then asks Cersei why she hated him so much. Cersei might have gotten along better with Robert if he wouldn't have mentioned Lyanna in their first night, but the chances are about zero that she would have given up Jaime. Not to mention, you know, that Jaime would have been there all the time, trying to drive a wedge between Robert and Cersei.

 

We don't know if Cersei would've given up Jaime, thus being unfair to both Robert and Jaime. And Jaime would've given up Cersei if that's what she had really wanted. He does care about her.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Running off to avenge Tyrion was selfish, too. Jaime is a Kingsguard and presumably also the sworn sword of the queen. He had no business attacking Ned or waging a war against the Tullys.

 

Running off to avenge Tyrion was the exact opposite of selfish. Caring about someone else is the exact opposite of selfish.

The KG has seven members and they protect the entire royal family. There is no indication anywhere that Jaime was Cersei's sworn sword. True, waging war on the Tullys wasn't the smartest of decisions. But it wasn't selfish and I can certainly understand why he did it. And later on, the Starks and Tullys were in open rebellion, so he was performing his duties as a member of the KG.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

People aren't all the same. Jaime is a very weird individual, actually. A man with his looks, strength, abilities, wealth, and rank should have had hundreds of affairs. He must have a very low sex drive - which doesn't seem to be the case - or a very weird obsession with his twin sister. My guess is that Cersei simply is the only woman Jaime considered worthy of himself. It is not just Cersei who sees Jaime as an extension of herself. He does, too.

Jaime's different, not weird. It's perfectly normal for attractive people to not have multiple affairs. And I don't see anything wrong with Jaime seeing Cersei as the only woman worthy of himself. He was smart enough to leave her when he was disabused of this notion.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We also see this with the Jaime-Tyrion relationship. Jaime likes and cares for Tyrion because they are both Lannisters. Lannisters are superior, they are the only people who really count. Cersei cannot include Tyrion in that elite group but Jaime can. But that doesn't make him a great human being.

 

Jaime cares for Tyrion because he is his younger brother. They've had a strong bond since their childhood years. Being an affectionate older brother makes you a good human being.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But that's the thing - Jaime did want to have sex with Cersei. Just not in the room they were at that point. And that's silly behavior, especially after he forced himself on Cersei in the sept and in front of the corpse of their firstborn son.

The fact that Jaime even got aroused under those circumstances shows how, well, sick he actually is. I mean, what man would want to have sex in front of the corpse of his own son-nephew?

 

I thought the sex beside Joffrey's corpse was horrible too. Jaime shouldn't have done it and it was extraordinarily creepy. But I would refrain from commenting on consent in this case. Their relationship was complicated to say the least. I'm not sure if Cersei didn't want to have sex with him there. But I take her at her word in case she said she didn't want to and Jaime certainly shouldn't have done it.

As for Jaime, he definitely didn't want to have sex in the White Tower. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he refused to have sex because it was Tuesday, I still don't see anything wrong with that.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime gives shitty advice to his son, Tommen - going away inside is advice how to create a psychopath not how to properly deal with your emotions. What ruined Jaime seems to have been his years with Aerys. He had to suffer through so much shit at such an early age that he lost his ability to empathize with people. The youth Jaime wouldn't have been able to murder Bran. The Kingslayer was. And one can even ask the question whether Jaime would have been willing to cuckold Robert, etc. if he hadn't been with Aerys.

The boy who joined the Kingsguard wanted to be a good man.

 

Everyone makes mistakes and gets led away from their goals. Jaime is trying to redeem himself.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But back to the children thing. Jaime may not have a deep emotional connection with his children as their father. But again - he is their uncle. And he and Cersei spend a lot of time with the children. We see that in Winterfell during the breakfast. Not to mention that Jaime also seems to have been Cersei's sworn shield, being constantly around her, being with her during childbirth, etc.

You don't have to spend a lot of time with your nephews or nieces to feel emotionally attached to them. They are family. And you have a moral responsibility to care for them. The way Jaime does not care about Joffrey's murder is very irritating if you think about it. The boy was his son. If the man just cares about people he feels emotionally close then he is really as vapid as he appears. Emotional connections are well and good, but you also have obligations to your family. You don't need to love your brother or your son to want vengeance or justice if they are murdered.

And the idea that Jaime does his surviving children a kindness by actually telling them - and the world - the truth about their parentage is insane. It will destroy their future and threaten their very lives. Right now they Tommen is king and Myrcella his heir. They have a chance to rise as high as one can rise in this world, a chance to live a privileged life in splendor and power. If Jaime reveals the truth they will lose all that and gain only a cripple for a father. As bastards they won't even have claims to Casterly Rock. If they survived they might end up as commoners or little better than that.

But that's the thing, they weren't just his nephews and nieces. They were his children who he couldn't claim as his own, was deliberately kept away from and who think Robert is their father, who Jaime detests. Its hard for Jaime to divorce these feelings and just treat them like nephews and nieces. I don't blame him. Catelyn found it hard to ignore the fact that Ned didn't talk to her about Jon's mother and raised him in the castle, hence she never warmed up to Jon. I don't blame her for that either.

And Jaime would likely have sought vengeance had he known who killed Joffrey, which he doesn't.

Telling his children that he is their father isn't the same as declaring it to the world. They don't have to be disinherited.

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I just want to point out that Cersei, as a grown-ass adult, is furious that a dead 11 year old girl wanted to marry Jaime. I think we can safely assume that she would never ever have been ok with Jaime having any relationship with any other female.

I think Cersei did have a certain "love" for Jaime, but one that's similar to a child's love for his/her favorite toy. She has a strong attachment to him, but she does not view him as a being with a life, thoughts, aspirations of his own. He only exists for her. 

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

How exactly did Jaime abandon Cersei? Its not as though he left forever. And Jaime, just like an other human being, has obligations and ties beyond his lover. Its part of leading a healthy life (and Jaime didn't have enough of a life beyond Cersei IMO). Cersei and the children weren't in any imminent danger at that stage.

It is pretty clear that they were if you reread the conversation Bran overheard. There is a constant threat that the incest is going to come out and then all hell would break lose. Cersei and Jaime and their children were dead men walking since Joffrey was conceived.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And as for being captured by Robb Stark, Jaime got captured performing his duty. One wouldn't blame war veterans for being captured, would they? (except maybe presidents..) Cersei can think what she likes, that doesn't make it reasonable. And I really don't judge Cersei for taking other lovers in Jaime's absence. But she had to know Jaime wouldn't be ok with it and she didn't care. Nor was she honest about it.

Jaime is a Kingsguard. And the king did not send him west to command one of the armies of his rich daddy. He did what he wanted to do, and that had nothing to do with his duty.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

We don't know if Cersei would've given up Jaime, thus being unfair to both Robert and Jaime. And Jaime would've given up Cersei if that's what she had really wanted. He does care about her.

Everything in Cersei's chapters indicates that she would never give up Jaime. I'd say she wouldn't even have done that if she had been married to Rhaegar. She might have liked Rhaegar - or rather the image she created of him - much better but that doesn't mean he would have replaced Jaime. How could he? He isn't the twin she was fucking since they were six years old.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Running off to avenge Tyrion was the exact opposite of selfish. Caring about someone else is the exact opposite of selfish.

No, it means Jaime wants to do what he wants. And Jaime did that because he wanted to do it, and he did not care what it meant for Cersei, his children, his king, his other family, or the Realm. He only cared about himself and how he felt about the Tyrion incident.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The KG has seven members and they protect the entire royal family. There is no indication anywhere that Jaime was Cersei's sworn sword. True, waging war on the Tullys wasn't the smartest of decisions. But it wasn't selfish and I can certainly understand why he did it. And later on, the Starks and Tullys were in open rebellion, so he was performing his duties as a member of the KG.

Nope, he wasn't. Not if his king did not send him there. Did King Robert send him to the West to attack the Tullys? No, he did not. Even if Jaime wasn't Cersei's sworn shield - and that's really how it looks like, actually - he still cannot leave court without the permission of the king.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime's different, not weird. It's perfectly normal for attractive people to not have multiple affairs. And I don't see anything wrong with Jaime seeing Cersei as the only woman worthy of himself. He was smart enough to leave her when he was disabused of this notion.

Well, in light of the fact that Jaime was a officially a lifelong bachelor who was away from Cersei for months and years, especially in his youth when his sex drive must have been strongest (I'm talking of his time as squire at Crakehall and the Kingswood campaign) it is very odd that he did not hook up with at least some woman.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime cares for Tyrion because he is his younger brother. They've had a strong bond since their childhood years. Being an affectionate older brother makes you a good human being.

Loving your brother isn't all that special. It is something you can expect of your brother. Just as it is expected of a father/uncle to love his children/nephews/niece. Jaime only got the first one right, and Tyrion is pretty much the only person aside from Cersei he actually loves. He has no love or deep affection for any of his other relations - not for Genna or Kevan, not for Lancel and Daven, not for anyone, really.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I thought the sex beside Joffrey's corpse was horrible too. Jaime shouldn't have done it and it was extraordinarily creepy. But I would refrain from commenting on consent in this case. Their relationship was complicated to say the least. I'm not sure if Cersei didn't want to have sex with him there. But I take her at her word in case she said she didn't want to and Jaime certainly shouldn't have done it.

The point I'm making is that Jaime failed to control himself at the objectively more sacred place - within the castle sept in front of the corpse of his own son - and then he later presumed to turn away Cersei in the White Tower. That is a double standard. His wishes are more important than Cersei's wishes.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

As for Jaime, he definitely didn't want to have sex in the White Tower. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he refused to have sex because it was Tuesday, I still don't see anything wrong with that.

There are differences there, to be sure. Rejecting your lover without a good explanation when she essentially comes to you begging for help after you pulled the thing Jaime pulled in the sept is disgusting. Cersei has every right to be angry. 

It is not about consent in the White Tower, it is about the place.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Everyone makes mistakes and gets led away from their goals. Jaime is trying to redeem himself.

Is he? For what? Does he really regret that he tried to kill Bran? Or that he killed Aerys? Or that he cuckolded the king who pardoned him, fucked his sister, and fathered three children on her?

What Jaime truly regrets is that he let down Prince Rhaegar during the Sack, that he did not protect Elia and her children. That he regrets. But that's it. 

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

But that's the thing, they weren't just his nephews and nieces. They were his children who he couldn't claim as his own, was deliberately kept away from and who think Robert is their father, who Jaime detests. Its hard for Jaime to divorce these feelings and just treat them like nephews and nieces. I don't blame him. Catelyn found it hard to ignore the fact that Ned didn't talk to her about Jon's mother and raised him in the castle, hence she never warmed up to Jon. I don't blame her for that either.

Cat isn't Jon's mother. But Jaime is the father and uncle of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. And he sucked at both those 'jobs'. Being an uncle and being a father are - or can be - rather similar roles. But Jaime clearly had no interest in fulfilling those roles. He complains that Cersei kept him from them but that isn't really true. He was around and a member of the royal family for Robert's entire reign. If he wasn't close to his children nobody was. He wasn't just some bodyguard he was the brother of the queen and thus able to form even a stronger bond with Cersei's children than Tyrion who did not actually live at court.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And Jaime would likely have sought vengeance had he known who killed Joffrey, which he doesn't.

He knows Tyrion did it. He was convicted and he confessed it to him and he still doesn't care. That is very weird behavior.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Telling his children that he is their father isn't the same as declaring it to the world. They don't have to be disinherited.

But that's what he intends to do. Reread his plans regarding Myrcella in ADwD. He makes it clear that her betrothal is going to end when he tells the truth. That means he is not just going to tell her quietly but in a manner that's going to affect and involve the outside world.

And when we talk about that: Jaime is also the guy who already killed the authority of King Tommen back when he actually issued the order to double-check the orders of the king. If even the Kingsguard don't take the king seriously Tommen has no chance to ever be taken seriously by anyone at his own court, let alone grow into a leader others respect.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty clear that they were if you reread the conversation Bran overheard. There is a constant threat that the incest is going to come out and then all hell would break lose. Cersei and Jaime and their children were dead men walking since Joffrey was conceived.

 

Exactly, Jaime and Cersei knew their children would never be truly safe. When Jaime left KL, it was no different than any other time. His children wouldn't be imminent danger even if the incest reports broke out.

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Jaime is a Kingsguard. And the king did not send him west to command one of the armies of his rich daddy. He did what he wanted to do, and that had nothing to do with his duty.

 

He was fighting rebels and Robert didn't call him back. But that's besides the point. Having loyalties other than those to Cersei doesn't say anything bad about Jaime, other than maybe impulsiveness.

 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Everything in Cersei's chapters indicates that she would never give up Jaime. I'd say she wouldn't even have done that if she had been married to Rhaegar. She might have liked Rhaegar - or rather the image she created of him - much better but that doesn't mean he would have replaced Jaime. How could he? He isn't the twin she was fucking since they were six years old.

Cersei's chapters are clouded by her bad experiences with Robert. Had that not happened, I believe things would have turned out differently.

The point here is that Jaime would've given up Cersei if that was in her interest, Cersei wouldn't do the same.

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it means Jaime wants to do what he wants. And Jaime did that because he wanted to do it, and he did not care what it meant for Cersei, his children, his king, his other family, or the Realm. He only cared about himself and how he felt about the Tyrion incident.

I disagree about Tyrion's capture. I'm not what you base this characterization of Jaime on.

 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, he wasn't. Not if his king did not send him there. Did King Robert send him to the West to attack the Tullys? No, he did not. Even if Jaime wasn't Cersei's sworn shield - and that's really how it looks like, actually - he still cannot leave court without the permission of the king.

 

Did Robert charge Jaime with disobeying his orders? If I recall correctly, he didn't mind Jaime being away from KL.

 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, in light of the fact that Jaime was a officially a lifelong bachelor who was away from Cersei for months and years, especially in his youth when his sex drive must have been strongest (I'm talking of his time as squire at Crakehall and the Kingswood campaign) it is very odd that he did not hook up with at least some woman.

 

I suppose we disagree here. I don't see this as odd or weird, especially considering his devotion to Cersei. Which is what makes infidelity even more inconsiderate.

 

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Loving your brother isn't all that special. It is something you can expect of your brother. Just as it is expected of a father/uncle to love his children/nephews/niece. Jaime only got the first one right, and Tyrion is pretty much the only person aside from Cersei he actually loves. He has no love or deep affection for any of his other relations - not for Genna or Kevan, not for Lancel and Daven, not for anyone, really.

 

I realize loving your brother is basic human decency. But being away from your lover to save your brother's life isn't unloving towards your lover. Cersei has every right to be angry, but it doesn't mean Jaime is wrong here. And if Jaime and his other relations weren't that close growing up, I'm not surprised he doesn't feel as strongly about them as Tyrion. Neither do I blame him for it, He didn't interact too many people outside his family until meeting Brienne. And he cares about her a lot!

 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point I'm making is that Jaime failed to control himself at the objectively more sacred place - within the castle sept in front of the corpse of his own son - and then he later presumed to turn away Cersei in the White Tower. That is a double standard. His wishes are more important than Cersei's wishes.

I agree that Jaime failed to control himself in the sept. Everyone loses control at some point or another. He behaved so once, but Cersei has put her wishes over Jaime's almost every single time.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are differences there, to be sure. Rejecting your lover without a good explanation when she essentially comes to you begging for help after you pulled the thing Jaime pulled in the sept is disgusting. Cersei has every right to be angry. 

It is not about consent in the White Tower, it is about the place.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Jaime was in the wrong in the sept, Cersei was in the wrong in the White Tower.

Place and consent aren't two separate entities and can overlap.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Is he? For what? Does he really regret that he tried to kill Bran? Or that he killed Aerys? Or that he cuckolded the king who pardoned him, fucked his sister, and fathered three children on her?

What Jaime truly regrets is that he let down Prince Rhaegar during the Sack, that he did not protect Elia and her children. That he regrets. But that's it. 

 

If he doesn't regret killing Aerys or cuckolding Robert, I don't blame his. Neither of them very good human beings. As for Bran, it was more complicated than that. Even Catelyn wonders what she would do if the choice was between her children and someone else's.

 

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cat isn't Jon's mother. But Jaime is the father and uncle of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. And he sucked at both those 'jobs'. Being an uncle and being a father are - or can be - rather similar roles. But Jaime clearly had no interest in fulfilling those roles. He complains that Cersei kept him from them but that isn't really true. He was around and a member of the royal family for Robert's entire reign. If he wasn't close to his children nobody was. He wasn't just some bodyguard he was the brother of the queen and thus able to form even a stronger bond with Cersei's children than Tyrion who did not actually live at court.

 

I understand the situation between Cat and Jaime isn't exactly the same. The point here is that Jaime's relative lack of concern for his children is understandable. I'm sure it pains Jaime to see that his children consider Robert their father, a man he detests. Tyrion doesn't have such feelings to wrestle with.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He knows Tyrion did it. He was convicted and he confessed it to him and he still doesn't care. That is very weird behavior.

No he doesn't. He knows Tyrion was angry when he confessed. And if Jaime had sought revenge against Tyrion, that would've been very dark indeed. Kill a brother you love for the son you never really cared too much about? Nothing here is black and white.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

But that's what he intends to do. Reread his plans regarding Myrcella in ADwD. He makes it clear that her betrothal is going to end when he tells the truth. That means he is not just going to tell her quietly but in a manner that's going to affect and involve the outside world.

Contemplating on doing something isn't the same as doing it. And he wants to marry Cersei and have their children inherit, like the targaryens. I'm not sure how Jaime planned to achieve this, but that's what he wanted, not seeing his children disinherited over a whim.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And when we talk about that: Jaime is also the guy who already killed the authority of King Tommen back when he actually issued the order to double-check the orders of the king. If even the Kingsguard don't take the king seriously Tommen has no chance to ever be taken seriously by anyone at his own court, let alone grow into a leader others respect.

But that's the whole reason for regencies, so young monarchs do not make mistakes on account of their youth and inexperience. Jaime instructed the KG to use their best judgement, saddle Tommen's horse but check with him before killing his horse. I'm not sure why you think this is undermining the king or being insubordinate.

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22 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Re: And when we talk about that: Jaime is also the guy who already killed the authority of King Tommen back when he actually issued the order to double-check the orders of the king. If even the Kingsguard don't take the king seriously Tommen has no chance to ever be taken seriously by anyone at his own court, let alone grow into a leader others respect.

But that's the whole reason for regencies, so young monarchs do not make mistakes on account of their youth and inexperience. Jaime instructed the KG to use their best judgement, saddle Tommen's horse but check with him before killing his horse. I'm not sure why you think this is undermining the king or being insubordinate.

In reality, Jaime's orders would have been perfect for Joffrey but were tragic for Tommen. Joffrey, due to unquestioned authority, was allowed to have Ned Stark beheaded and Sansa beaten. Tommen would not have eaten beet (and so what ?), maybe have more kittens (and so what ?), be present at the council meetings, start his sword training and not let Cersei beat other boy on his behalf. Jaime meant his orders well. However, it was something many institutions, especially government often do - trying to fix something irreparable after the event by new regulations, and the regulations backfire when the new situation comes up. 

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23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Exactly, Jaime and Cersei knew their children would never be truly safe. When Jaime left KL, it was no different than any other time. His children wouldn't be imminent danger even if the incest reports broke out.

No. They were in constant danger and it was getting worse and worse. Stannis and Jon Arryn knew. If Robert learned and believed the truth they would all be finished. Cersei and Jaime's real and most dangerous enemies were at court. Not in the Riverlands. Tywin could have taken care of the Tyrion business. Jaime's place was with Cersei and his children.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He was fighting rebels and Robert didn't call him back. But that's besides the point. Having loyalties other than those to Cersei doesn't say anything bad about Jaime, other than maybe impulsiveness.

Jaime didn't fight any rebels. He himself became a rebel when he and Tywin attacked the Riverlands. King Robert hadn't given them leave to invade the Riverlands, right? And Robert doing nothing in a given situation doesn't mean a deed is not a crime.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Cersei's chapters are clouded by her bad experiences with Robert. Had that not happened, I believe things would have turned out differently.

On what would you base that? Cersei and Robert have nothing in common. Even if they did not grown to hate or despise each other the way they did they would still have had nothing but an amicable relationship. Perhaps something like Elia and Rhaegar had. But they would have inevitably grown apart later during their marriage. Cersei didn't have any taste for Robert's hobbies and she sure as hell wouldn't have liked that he had affairs.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The point here is that Jaime would've given up Cersei if that was in her interest, Cersei wouldn't do the same.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jaime would have given up Cersei under any circumstances. The Jaime in ASoS still wants to marry Cersei.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I disagree about Tyrion's capture. I'm not what you base this characterization of Jaime on.

On the facts. It was utter stupidity to actually attack Eddard Stark in the streets and then flee the city, abandoning his children and sister to her enemies/Robert. Jaime's motivation there was to express his rage and show off his strength and abilities.

Jaime and Cersei should have laid the issue before Robert. If they had both pushed Robert hard enough and played their cards right they might have been able to destroy Ned then and there. An attack on the king's brother-in-law is an attack on the king himself - or can at least seen as such. And Robert was mad over the Targaryen incident and Ned's resignation. They only reconcile after Jaime seriously injures Ned.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Did Robert charge Jaime with disobeying his orders? If I recall correctly, he didn't mind Jaime being away from KL.

See above. That doesn't change anything.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I suppose we disagree here. I don't see this as odd or weird, especially considering his devotion to Cersei. Which is what makes infidelity even more inconsiderate.

Have you thought about the ages of the twins there for a moment. Jaime went to Crakehall as a squire at the age of eleven - we know he squired for Lord Sumner for four years and got knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne at the age of fourteen. The idea that 10-11-year-old-boy was romantically and sexually devoted to his twin sister in any meaningful way at this early age is, quite frankly, highly implausible.

Sure, the twins would have had their special twin bond and all but no actual romantic or sexual relationship. It is highly unlikely that they were even able to consummate their relationship properly before Jaime left for Crakehall.

The first real and passionate incest sex would have come much later - perhaps in KL when Cersei convinced Jaime to join the KG.

So I ask again - how on earth was the 11-15-year-old Jaime immune to the charms of the pretty girls at Crakehall Castle and the surrounding villages? A normal boy wouldn't have been.

Which means that Jaime is weird.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I realize loving your brother is basic human decency. But being away from your lover to save your brother's life isn't unloving towards your lover. Cersei has every right to be angry, but it doesn't mean Jaime is wrong here. And if Jaime and his other relations weren't that close growing up, I'm not surprised he doesn't feel as strongly about them as Tyrion. Neither do I blame him for it, He didn't interact too many people outside his family until meeting Brienne. And he cares about her a lot!

Again, Jaime abandoned his king, his queen/sister/lover, his children-nephews/niece. There is no reason to praise him for that. He had no right to defend the honor of Casterly Rock. He is a Kingsguard.

And it is, of course, also wrong on the emotional level - your children and lover/sister/queen should come before your brother, don't you think?

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree that Jaime failed to control himself in the sept. Everyone loses control at some point or another. He behaved so once, but Cersei has put her wishes over Jaime's almost every single time.

Cersei actually has other priorities. She is a mother who loves her children whereas Jaime is a father who seems to see his children as little more than things. Cersei and Jaime both like power and aspire to greatness, but Jaime is the one who really can see only himself until he loses his hand. Cersei can bide her time. Cersei can think. Jaime didn't even know how to think until he could no longer use his sword. Jaime only thinks about his own wishes and desires - his marriage to Cersei, for instance - while Cersei actually has the sense to consider how her actions are going to affect her children, her house, and the Iron Throne.

Cersei isn't a nice person, of course, but neither is Jaime. He is the one who fathered three bastards on the queen about whom he later does not care. He is even more guilty of that high treason than Cersei is. He was a Kingsguard. Kingsguard usually do not fuck the queen. It is Jaime who aborts the only child Robert actually fathered.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Two wrongs don't make a right. Jaime was in the wrong in the sept, Cersei was in the wrong in the White Tower.

Not really. It is clearly part of their game that Cersei usually comes to Jaime asking for/offering sex. That is how they do it.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Place and consent aren't two separate entities and can overlap.

Sure, but in this case we do know that Jaime wanted to fuck Cersei. Just not there in the White Tower. It was not a 'I don't want to have sex with you under any circumstances' or a 'You disgust me, get out of my sight' rejecting but a 'I love you and want to sleep with you but not here' rejection.

And again - a silly one, considering what he had pulled off in the sept.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

If he doesn't regret killing Aerys or cuckolding Robert, I don't blame his. Neither of them very good human beings. As for Bran, it was more complicated than that. Even Catelyn wonders what she would do if the choice was between her children and someone else's.

Catelyn can wonder all day - it is still a crime. A crime to be punished by death in this world, as a regicide and fucking the queen (if you are not the king) in this world. And Jaime made this all worse by being a fucking Kingsguard all the time.

It is rarely addressed but Jaime actually was Robert's Kingsguard. Fucking Cersei was an abominable crime for a man who swore his vows.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I understand the situation between Cat and Jaime isn't exactly the same. The point here is that Jaime's relative lack of concern for his children is understandable. I'm sure it pains Jaime to see that his children consider Robert their father, a man he detests. Tyrion doesn't have such feelings to wrestle with.

Well, if you think a man is justified in emotionally disconnecting from his children I'm glad I'm not child of yours.

And again - note that nobody forced Jaime Lannister to conceive those children he then made Robert's children in the eyes of the world. He was as guilty of that as Cersei, perhaps even more. The idea that Cersei somehow stole the children away from Jaime doesn't make any sense. They would have both known that the children must be Robert's since they would all die in any other scenario.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

No he doesn't. He knows Tyrion was angry when he confessed. And if Jaime had sought revenge against Tyrion, that would've been very dark indeed. Kill a brother you love for the son you never really cared too much about? Nothing here is black and white.

Well, if my brother tells me in anger that he killed my son after he was also convicted of that crime during a trial I think I'd have to believe him, don't you think? And in a world like Westeros where vendettas and blood feuds are part of the identity of nobility and royalty alike it makes no sense at all that Jaime would allow Tyrion to get away with that.

What do you think Tywin would have done if Kevan had confessed to him during an argument that he had poisoned Joanna or murdered their mother? What do you think Ned would have done if Benjen admitted to him that he smothered Sansa in her sleep?

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Contemplating on doing something isn't the same as doing it. And he wants to marry Cersei and have their children inherit, like the targaryens. I'm not sure how Jaime planned to achieve this, but that's what he wanted, not seeing his children disinherited over a whim.

He makes it clear that he wants them to inherit the Rock. That could work if they legitimized them as their children. He doesn't want them to sit the Iron Throne, knowing very well that this is not going to happen in such a scenario.

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

But that's the whole reason for regencies, so young monarchs do not make mistakes on account of their youth and inexperience. Jaime instructed the KG to use their best judgement, saddle Tommen's horse but check with him before killing his horse. I'm not sure why you think this is undermining the king or being insubordinate.

Jaime isn't Tommen's regent. He is Tommen's servant, bound to protect and obey him. If there is a group of people who have no right to second-guess or countermand the king it is the Kingsguard and its Lord Commander. In fact, the Kingsguard should be the only people who might be able to ignore the orders of the king's government during a regency considering that their ultimate loyalty as per their vow lies with the very person of the monarch. Whether they do that all that often is a different matter.

However, Jaime actually actively undermining the authority of his monarch goes completely against the Kingsguard duties as well as the interest of the king himself and the interests of Tommen as a person.

1 hour ago, beauty6 said:

In reality, Jaime's orders would have been perfect for Joffrey but were tragic for Tommen. Joffrey, due to unquestioned authority, was allowed to have Ned Stark beheaded and Sansa beaten. Tommen would not have eaten beet (and so what ?), maybe have more kittens (and so what ?), be present at the council meetings, start his sword training and not let Cersei beat other boy on his behalf. Jaime meant his orders well. However, it was something many institutions, especially government often do - trying to fix something irreparable after the event by new regulations, and the regulations backfire when the new situation comes up. 

You make some good points here but I'd actually say that in the world George is describing a monarch in his minority can't be the puppet or figurehead of his government without causing massive damage to the monarchy as an institution as well as the king as a person.

Joffrey had to show himself to the people so that the people knew that a new king was there at all. And it is not that he made a lot of decision. Cersei was the Queen Regent and she and Tyrion and later Tywin controlled the actual government. But undermining the king in public or reality by giving other people - who know better - the authority to countermand or second-guess royal command would deal a huge blow to a king's authority. When such a king finally comes of age people will remember how they saw or treated that king during his minority.

We also see this conundrum with Robb's war. Robb decides to act in his mother's stead during her absence but technically he has no right to do anything without her approval. Cat could have sent him back to Winterfell when they met again at Moat Cailin but she wisely chose not to as to not damage his public image and authority over his lords.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, beauty6 said:

In reality, Jaime's orders would have been perfect for Joffrey but were tragic for Tommen. Joffrey, due to unquestioned authority, was allowed to have Ned Stark beheaded and Sansa beaten. Tommen would not have eaten beet (and so what ?), maybe have more kittens (and so what ?), be present at the council meetings, start his sword training and not let Cersei beat other boy on his behalf. Jaime meant his orders well. However, it was something many institutions, especially government often do - trying to fix something irreparable after the event by new regulations, and the regulations backfire when the new situation comes up. 

Technically, Tommen is a minor and not a ruling king yet, so Tommen's orders are superseded by the orders of a Regent, a Hand and likely even of a Small Council member which Jaime is as a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. So Jaime's orders were most likely lawful and expected in Tommen's case but wouldn't had been for Joffrey's since he was ruling in full. That said, Jaime once told his subordinates to go to him before listening his sister's - Queen Regent's orders and that definitely was not lawful at all. It showcased one thing - Jaime is not fit to be a Kingsguard. His mentality is incompatible with the position. 

Edited by Dofs

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8 hours ago, Dofs said:

Technically, Tommen is a minor and not a ruling king yet, so Tommen's orders are superseded by the orders of a Regent, a Hand and likely even of a Small Council member which Jaime is as a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. So Jaime's orders were most likely lawful and expected in Tommen's case but wouldn't had been for Joffrey's since he was ruling in full.

Joffrey wasn't ruling in his own right, either. He was a 12-13-year-old boy propped up as a figurehead by his mother, uncle, and grandfather. Cersei gave him the main role in her state plays so neither she nor anyone else could contradict Joff's orders in public without damaging the authority of the monarch but Joffrey himself wasn't running his government. He made no important decision aside from the execution of Ned Stark, and that one only worked because Littlefinger arranged things so that Joff's order would be carried out immediately.

If Littlefinger hadn't drawn the strings behind the scenes, if Slynt had not expected that order to come - perhaps even assuming that the Queen Regent wanted Ned dead, too - things could have easily gone very differently.

It would have been very easy to make Joffrey the same non-entity in his own government as King Tommen is right now. All the regent, the Hand, and the Small Council would need to do is to collectively decide to exclude the minor king from all matters of state. And they certainly could have done that. It wouldn't have been wise but doable. It is what the regents of Aegon III also seemed to have done.

But in a general view the king's person is the ultimate and revered authority in this society. That is why Tywin, Cersei, and Kevan have Tommen seal and sign all the orders and decrees they issue. A document carries infinitely more authority when it is signed and sealed by the king than it does when it is only issued by a regent, the Hand, or the Small Council. A minor king might not rule in his own right but it is still his authority and power as king from which the people ruling in his name derive all their authority. Without that they are nothing.

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

That said, Jaime once told his subordinates to go to him before listening his sister's - Queen Regent's orders and that definitely was not lawful at all. It showcased one thing - Jaime is not fit to be a Kingsguard. His mentality is incompatible with the position. 

Jaime is just pissed that people messed with his Kingsguard in his absence. He is pissed that they made him Lord Commander without asking him and that they added men to the order without consulting him. Now that he is commander he thinks it is right to command.

Whether it is unlawful for a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to keep a tight leash on his brothers and double-checking the orders they receive from a Hand or a regent is completely unclear at this point. The Kingsguard is, in the end, only sworn to obey the king. If the king is a child or incapacitated they most likely have a right - or even the duty - to start to think for themselves and judge whether the orders the people presuming the speak in the name of the king actually have his best interests at heart.

The general tendency seems to be that the Kingsguard follows the commands of a regent or the Hand in such circumstances but those are always confusing times. Remember that Ser Marston Waters of the Kingsguard actually besieged his own king, Aegon III, and his brother Viserys in Maegor's Holdfast for weeks because they had orders to arrest Prince Viserys' wife.

We also have to keep in mind that the Lord Commander actually usually organizes the safety of the king and the royal family. It is he who assigns the White Swords to their respective duties. This doesn't mean that the king cannot take matters in his own hands, but it is apparently customary to include the Lord Commander in most or all of those decisions. Kevan seems to follow due procedure when he tells Cersei in ADwD that he is drawing up a least of suitable candidates to replace Ser Arys Oakheart - a list he intends to present to Jaime upon his return to the city so that he can choose a new Kingsguard.

If the king, queen, or royal family - or even the Hand - could/would simply randomly give orders and new assignments to the Kingsguard one would really have to wonder why on earth this order consisting of seven knights does need a lord commander? One assumes there is a proper chain of command. The king/regent gives an order to the Lord Commander who then organizes things the way the king wants them to be.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Joffrey wasn't ruling in his own right, either. He was a 12-13-year-old boy propped up as a figurehead by his mother, uncle, and grandfather. Cersei gave him the main role in her state plays so neither she nor anyone else could contradict Joff's orders in public without damaging the authority of the monarch but Joffrey himself wasn't running his government. He made no important decision aside from the execution of Ned Stark, and that one only worked because Littlefinger arranged things so that Joff's order would be carried out immediately.

Joffrey didn't have a regent and was at age to bed women. That's why Sansa was so scared when she flowered - because that meant that Joffrey could bed her and only the Lannister alliance with Tyrells saved her. All this means that Joffrey was officially a ruling king. In practice he wasn't because Tywin's authority was so much bigger. Even when he tried to influence things and do something, Tywin, his Hand, shut him down, even though technically he shouldn't have been able to. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime is just pissed that people messed with his Kingsguard in his absence. He is pissed that they made him Lord Commander without asking him and that they added men to the order without consulting him. Now that he is commander he thinks it is right to command.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Jaime was pissed at something else entirely when he undermined his Queen's authority over the Kingsguard.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whether it is unlawful for a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to keep a tight leash on his brothers and double-checking the orders they receive from a Hand or a regent is completely unclear at this point. The Kingsguard is, in the end, only sworn to obey the king. If the king is a child or incapacitated they most likely have a right - or even the duty - to start to think for themselves and judge whether the orders the people presuming the speak in the name of the king actually have his best interests at heart.

The Kingsguard's authority could only end at protecting the King life. Otherwise, if the Kingsguard can question any order of a Regent/Hand, than they are above them and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard becomes and effective ruler of the 7 Kingdoms if a king cannot rule himself which is nonsense.

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The power lies where people think it does, as lord Varys once said. If Jaime can get away with second guessing the orders of the king, he has a power to do it, even if the law does not back him up. And he earned plus points with me because he meant well - he meant for the KG not to be used for beating women. But he also earned facepalm from me for not realizing, that Tommen is very different from Joffrey.

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29 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Joffrey didn't have a regent and was at age to bed women. That's why Sansa was so scared when she flowered - because that meant that Joffrey could bed her and only the Lannister alliance with Tyrells saved her. All this means that Joffrey was officially a ruling king. In practice he wasn't because Tywin's authority was so much bigger. Even when he tried to influence things and do something, Tywin, his Hand, shut him down, even though technically he shouldn't have been able to. 

Sorry, no, you have to reread the books. Joffrey Baratheon was a minor and Cersei Lannister served as Queen Regent from the moment of his ascension, and later continued in that function after Tommen Baratheon rose to the throne.

Joffrey being able to shoot his load doesn't result in him being declared a grown-up. You come of age in Westeros on your sixteenth nameday. The Young Dragon got around a regency, as did Robb, in a sense, but Joff did not.

And Joffrey would have been able to abuse and rape Sansa - and pretty much any woman at his mercy - simply because he was the king. You don't have to be a grown-up king to get what you want. Not when you are surrounded by people who indulge you in all your desires.

It is also quite clear that Tywin was afraid of what Joffrey would become in the future. Joffrey would have treated the old man at least as well as Aegon II treated his grandfather - or perhaps even worse if Tywin had actually tried to fight back.

29 minutes ago, Dofs said:

The Kingsguard's authority could only end at protecting the King life. Otherwise, if the Kingsguard can question any order of a Regent/Hand, than they are above them and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard becomes and effective ruler of the 7 Kingdoms if a king cannot rule himself which is nonsense.

Well, usually a regent or Hand wouldn't interfere with the Kingsguard all that much. Their duty is to protect the king. When they give orders to help with that everything is fine. But if a regent decided to send all the seven White Swords on some fool's errand, handing the protection of the king to his own brother or son in the meantime, the Kingsguard - especially the Lord Commander - should begin to think for themselves and whether these regent really has the interests of the king at heart.

We see that the Kingsguard was sort of semi-independent even during the Regency of Aegon III. Unwin Peake had to get his own half-brother into the Kingsguard to ensure that Queen Jaehaera would be defenseless when he sent his assassin to murder her.

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