Where does it begin, Pycelle?

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Quote

How many of you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me... King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?

I have two questions about this quote:

• Could we see Pycelle as part of Summerhall tragedy in Dunk and Egg stories? 
• Did Pycelle betray Rhaegar specifically and Varys killed him because of this betrayal?

[DarkBastard]

I've spent a lot of time examining the relationship of Pycelle to the Lannisters.

Pycelle was Tywin's man all along...from long before the rebellion.  In TWOIAF it shows repeated glorification of Tywin as Hand of the King in letters Pycelle sent to the Citadel.  And we all know once Rhaegar fell, he was instrumental in getting Aerys to open the gates to Tywin against the cautions of Varys.

I think Tywin funded the tourney at Harrenhall to discuss removing Aerys, in collusion with Rhaegar.  Varys spurred Aerys to attend, for fear of the influence Tywin was developing over Rhaegar.  It is the only explanation that I have found that makes sense for why Varys would protect the Mad King.  Varys was a constant antagonist to Pycelle in King's Landing...that's why you see the repeated attempts by Pycelle to undermine his influence throughout the texts. 

The Lannisters serve only themselves, so whatever Pycelle did or did not do was likely at the behest of Tywin.  I believe Varys saw him for what he was, and he knew his loyalty to the Lannisters was not in the best interest of The Realm.  Regardless of Pycelle's many past betrayals, Varys is patient and Pycelle was due a significant reckoning for the turmoil and suffering he helped create over the years.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I think once Pycelle witnessed the brilliance of Tywin Lannister while he served as Aerys' Hand he saw Tywin as the most qualified man to run Westeros. Which is hard to argue, and for whatever you might say about Pycelle he is a learned man of the Citadel. The man actually cried when Tywin died. He believed Tywin was truly a great man and thought assisting him in any possible was best for the realm. I like to think that off page Tywin and Pycelle had a legit bromance that could rival a young Ned and Bob's.

[bent branch]

21 hours ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

I have two questions about this quote:

• Could we see Pycelle as part of Summerhall tragedy in Dunk and Egg stories? 
• Did Pycelle betray Rhaegar specifically and Varys killed him because of this betrayal?

To the first question, possibly.

Whether Varys killed him because of his betrayal of Rhaegar is hard to say. Rhaegar had died about 20 years ago. I do think Pycelle and Tywin were attempting to betray Rhaegar. While many people think Tywin paid for the Harrenhall to get support for Rhaegar overthrowing Aerys, I think Tywin paid for Harrenhall because he wanted people to think Rhaegar was trying to overthrow Aerys. I think Tywin wanted Rhaegar to be attainted for treason (with attendant beheading) in order for Cersei to be betrothed to Viserys. This is why Varys told Aerys he had to attend. Aerys attended to protect the reputation of his heir, Rhaegar.

[anjulibai]

I wonder if it's possible that Pycelle is a Lannister by birth. He does wear red instead of gray (though he's usually depicted in gray). 

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

I wonder if it's possible that Pycelle is a Lannister by birth. He does wear red instead of gray (though he's usually depicted in gray). 

That is very unlikely because Pycelle is historically first mentioned as severely criticizing the misrule of Lord Tytos Lannister (a tidbit that didn't make it into TWoIaF but can be read on George's page). A Lannister by birth would most likely not have done this. However, Pycelle could be a Westerman by birth. This makes it clear that Pycelle is not a Lannister toady per se. He is a Tywin fan boy, though. He met the man at court, and most likely grew to like and adore him because Tywin was as competent and efficient as he was. There is no deeper secret to this.

On 10.7.2017 at 11:00 PM, Grazdan zo Azer said:

I have two questions about this quote:

• Could we see Pycelle as part of Summerhall tragedy in Dunk and Egg stories? 
• Did Pycelle betray Rhaegar specifically and Varys killed him because of this betrayal?

Pycelle was Grand Maester by the time of Summerhall, but Summerhall took place at Summerhall, not in KL. We know that Aegon V invited those closest to him to Summerhall to celebrate the birth of his first great-grandchild there. Was the newly appointed Grand Maester particularly close to Aegon V? We don't know, but Summerhall had its own maester in Archmaester Gyldayn. And he was there, making it somewhat less likely that Pycelle was invited, too. This seems to have been a private matter, not something where the entire court is invited.

This doesn't mean Pycelle couldn't have been involved in sabotaging or messing with whatever happened at Summerhall, but he may not have been personally present.

But then, it is not impossible that Pycelle actually made some connections with the royal family earlier in his life, perhaps through Aemon, and then he could very well have been at Summerhall. We don't know.

As to Rhaegar: There is no hint for a betrayal there.

[Leo of House Cartel]

1. I'm not sure if Pycelle would have been there, but the idea of getting to see a young and sprightly Pycelle on-page is pretty cool.

2. It could certainly be part of The Spider's reasoning for offing the Grand Maester, then again, Varys would no doubt have a long list of reasons to kill him.

The ripple's Pycelle's murder could cause throughout The Citadel could be interesting, hopefully Sam's chapters will contain a few bits of gossip from in and around Oldtown.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 7/10/2017 at 5:00 PM, Grazdan zo Azer said:

I have two questions about this quote:

• Could we see Pycelle as part of Summerhall tragedy in Dunk and Egg stories? 
• Did Pycelle betray Rhaegar specifically and Varys killed him because of this betrayal?

I’m expanding the quote a bit. I like to share info. By providing the book & chapter it gives people who are interested the opportunity to check out what is happening.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI       Pycelle's breathing was rapid and shallow. "All I did, I did for House Lannister." A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man's brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. "Always . . . for years . . . your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant . . . 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates . . ."       That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"      "For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.     The axe scratched at the apple of Pycelle's throat and stroked the soft wobbly skin under his jaw, scraping away the last hairs. "You . . . were not here," he gasped when the blade moved upward to his cheeks. "Robert . . . his wounds . . . if you had seen them, smelled them, you would have no doubt . . ."

Tyrion, acting as Hand of the King via Tywin’s wishes, was vetting Varys, LF and Pycelle. Tyrion told each of them a different story. Pycelle read Tyrion’s Dornish message and told Cersei about Tyrion’s mischief.

Tyrion caught Pycelle, the maester, more to the point a Grand Maester in a trap.

The possible reveal is that Maester’s do read the messages they are charged to send, but---- if a person were to break a seal how is the message re-sealed?

Pycelle had been in charge of the ravens and reading messages a looooooong time, oui? Tyrion was surprised during the conversation to hear that Pycelle suggested Aerys open the gates for Tywin.

What I question is the why the slimy Pycelle choose to throw in with Tywin, who was once Hand of the King, over Aerys the King. Pycelle was a traitor to King Aerys?

You asked interesting questions considering that Aerys at some point heard of Varys and had him brought to KL. Does anyone remember who suggested Varys to Aerys?

I’m thinking Pycelle was in KL for 40 years. That would put Pycelle in KL somewhere around 260.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest#Year_288_After_the_Conquest

Year 260 After the Conquest

Deaths

Maelys I Blackfyre, slain on the Stepstones by Barristan Selmy.^[110]   Jason Lannister dies on Bloodstone.^[81]

Lord Ormund Baratheon dies during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.^[7]

Events

Tywin Lannister is knighted.^[81]    War of the Ninepenny Kings.^[110]   With the death of Maelys Blackfyre, House Blackfyre becomes extinguished in the male line.^[111]

Since I am not a Westeros or Targ history buff I dunna know what all that means.

[bent branch]

On Invalid Date at 1:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

As to Rhaegar: There is no hint for a betrayal there.

ASOIAF - The Targaryen Kings - Aerys II:
 

Quote

 

Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. "He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.

Scholars have debated ever since as to Lord Tywin's intent. Did he believe Lord Darklyn would back down? Or was he, in truth, willing, and perhaps even eager, to see Aerys die so that Prince Rhaegar might take the Iron Throne?

 

imo, this is Tywin's first move to drive a wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar. Tywin should have never done this. And in case readers missed this fact, the second paragraph draws attention to the fact this was a questionable thing to do. I feel certain we are going to find out that the plot was to drive a wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar so Aerys would push Rhaegar aside in favor of Viserys so that Tywin could still make Cersei queen. The age difference is only two more years than that between Tommen and Marge.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, bent branch said:

imo, this is Tywin's first move to drive a wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar. Tywin should have never done this. And in case readers missed this fact, the second paragraph draws attention to the fact this was a questionable thing to do. I feel certain we are going to find out that the plot was to drive a wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar so Aerys would push Rhaegar aside in favor of Viserys so that Tywin could still make Cersei queen. The age difference is only two more years than that between Tommen and Marge.

Well, considering that Tywin had a pretty good reason to expect that his king would not live to hear those words I doubt that. But even if there was something to this we have no reason to believe that Pycelle had any hand in that.

[bent branch]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, considering that Tywin had a pretty good reason to expect that his king would not live to hear those words I doubt that. But even if there was something to this we have no reason to believe that Pycelle had any hand in that.

You and I have danced this dance before. I know we will continue to disagree about how much of Aerys' "madness" was the product of gaslighting and betrayal by Pycelle and Tywin. I still say that the Defiance of Duskendale was somehow arraigned by Tywin and the family was wiped out to hide his involvement. We won't know until we hear the other side of the story.

[Frey Kings]

Pyrcelle is a maester and they have their own self interests. They wanted to get rid of Targ rule and Pyrcelle saw Tywin as their best bet. Any real maester would want someone like Tywin to be kept far away from KL as possible. 

[BalerionTheCat]

Summerhall is probably just an experiment that went wrong. Maybe someone against the return of dragons did something, the archmaesters of the Citadel or the Faceless Men. I don't think Pycelle or the Lannisters would be involved anyway.

Pycelle ever tried to please Tywin. But AFAIK, Tywin had no trust in him.

I blame those jackanapes on the council our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys.

If Varys killed Pycelle, it was either to have Cersei believes the murderer's motive was to remove her main witness against Maergery. Or because Pycelle could remember the true Aegon babe and would denounce the fAegon.

[bent branch]

In my previous posts I forgot to say that I think the first king Pycelle betrayed was Jaehaerys II.

30 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Summerhall is probably just an experiment that went wrong. Maybe someone against the return of dragons did something, the archmaesters of the Citadel or the Faceless Men. I don't think Pycelle or the Lannisters would be involved anyway.

Pycelle ever tried to please Tywin. But AFAIK, Tywin had no trust in him.

I blame those jackanapes on the council our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys.

If Varys killed Pycelle, it was either to have Cersei believes the murderer's motive was to remove her main witness against Maergery. Or because Pycelle could remember the true Aegon babe and would denounce the fAegon.

Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Pycelle probably didn't have any special knowledge of Aegon.

[BalerionTheCat]

21 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Pycelle probably didn't have any special knowledge of Aegon.

But Aegon had been for some time at the RK before the Sack. Some may remember him better, but they are not in the Small Council.

[bent branch]

23 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But Aegon had been for some time at the RK before the Sack. Some may remember him better, but they are not in the Small Council.

I'm still not seeing what information Pycelle could have on Aegon that would be worth killing for. Say Pycelle knows the boy he saw in KL has a birthmark on his right thigh. Pycelle doesn't have access to the young man Aegon to see if he has a birthmark there. And by the time Pycelle is in a position to verify such a birthmark (hypothetical since Pycelle is dead), it doesn't matter since Aegon has already won or been killed.

[Ygrain]

27 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I'm still not seeing what information Pycelle could have on Aegon that would be worth killing for. Say Pycelle knows the boy he saw in KL has a birthmark on his right thigh. Pycelle doesn't have access to the young man Aegon to see if he has a birthmark there. And by the time Pycelle is in a position to verify such a birthmark (hypothetical since Pycelle is dead), it doesn't matter since Aegon has already won or been killed.

If Pycelle possessed some specific knowledge, he might have been able to use it to undermine Aegon's support - e.g., if Pycelle made a public proclamation that rAegon had a birthmark and that he personally saw it on the maimed body of the baby prince. - Come to think of it, Pycelle might have been able to do such damage even if he didn't have any specific knowledge, merely by claiming he did. As a supposedly neutral Grand Maester, his word could sway the opinion of people who would have been perfectly willing to fight for Rhaegar's son but not for an impostor.

- To the OP: I have also wondered what that supposed betrayal of Rhaegar might have been, and what and how Tyrion knows about it. When we discussed it awhile back, there were basically two areas in which Pycelle might have put his paws: correspondence, and Elia's health and fertility. We don't know who Elia's maester was and if Pycelle ever had any chance to "treat" her like he did Jon Arryn, but it is not beyond reason that the Crown Prince's wife might have been offered the best service the realm had to offer, at least temporarily. As for correspondence, we do know that the whole Lyanna affair featured quite some communication lapses, so some involvement of the guy known to read royal letters definitely cannot be excluded.

I am just wondering if Tyrion really knows something - from some comment that Tywin had made, perhaps - or if he just made an educated guess; but even such a guess should be based on the knowledge of Rhaegar being in some trouble (aside from hammertime)

 

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to believe Pycelle ever saw Aegon naked. The maester of Dragonstone - who we still know nothing about and who may be dead - would have, just as some midwives and nurses would. Jon Arryn had his maester with him in the capital, and Elia may have taken the maester of Dragonstone, too. Pycelle would only have had access to Rhaegar's son if the boy had been severely ill during his time in the Red Keep, and there is no reason to believe.

Pycelle sure as hell could claim that he saw Aegon naked anyway, and that he had a birthmark even if he didn't have a birthmark.

But such talk about be irrelevant now. The question who Aegon is is going to be decided on the battlefield. If he wins he is Aegon's son. If he loses he is an impostor, regardless who he actually is. Very few people care about the actual truth, and those few people are politically irrelevant. Some few people may also have cared about the true parentage of Robert's children but most did not.

And with Aegon most of the Realm will want to believe he is the real deal.

[Renly's Banana]

I don't think it's as complex as some would think. Pycelle is a man of the Citadel first and foremost, and that means he carries and represents all of the Citadel's goals in court (that is, the secret extinction of magic, dragons and presumably the Targaryens.) In Tywin he saw the perfect man fit to do this: A man of reason and cold logic who was leagues better than Aerys and his dipshit prophecy-obsessed son. That's why he was a Lannister man who defended them. And also a very good motive for Varys to kill him before Aegon picked up steam. 

[Denam_Pavel]

On 13-7-2017 at 2:51 AM, bent branch said:

You and I have danced this dance before. I know we will continue to disagree about how much of Aerys' "madness" was the product of gaslighting and betrayal by Pycelle and Tywin. I still say that the Defiance of Duskendale was somehow arraigned by Tywin and the family was wiped out to hide his involvement. We won't know until we hear the other side of the story.

Whichever side of the argument Pycelle fell on at Duskendale, it does not suggest any ill will towards, let alone betrayal of Rhaegar.