litechick Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I understand that Gimli was meant as comic relief (in the movies), I do. However, doesn't it seem like Tolkien really made the dwarves a joke by writing their representative this way? When he is extolling the virtues of the dwarves he touts their hardihood and fearlessness, their loyalty and ability to march at haste with a heavy pack and still jump in the fight with full vigor. But then among the Fellowship Gimli is the one who begs for rest, the one who has the hardest time conquering his fear to enter the Paths of the Dead, the one who is so stupidly naive as to think Balan is there to welcome them in Dwarven splendor at Moria. Galadriel wins his undying devotion by being kind to him in his racial defeat. Based on the characteristics with which Tolkien imbued the races, it should have been Gimli who blazed the trail through the snows of Caradhras while Aragorn and Boromir widened the tunnel. It should have been Gimli pushing them on to chase the Orcs across the Fields of Rohan. Maybe he was just spreading out human failings on a number of races but it seems like he gave the dwarves pride and vanity while the elves got nobility and honor and the hobbits got gluttony and sloth. 'Men are weak' it is known, that's fine but it feels like he gave the dwarves great attributes and then robbed them of those exact same attributes in the telling of the story. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Shaft, heh, I see what you did there. I don't really see it, to be honest. I think Tolkien had great love for the dwarves in a general sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Tolkien loved the dwarves. He just didn't make them as awesome as elves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 *Groan* At least we're not getting the accusations of anti-semitism... Book!Gimli does not think Balin's colony is still functioning. He's primarily interested in what happened to them (there's been no word from Moria to Erebor for some time). You have to differentiate between Tolkien's original and Jackson's adaptation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 6 hours ago, litechick said: I understand that Gimli was meant as comic relief (in the movies), I do. However, doesn't it seem like Tolkien really made the dwarves a joke by writing their representative this way? When he is extolling the virtues of the dwarves he touts their hardihood and fearlessness, their loyalty and ability to march at haste with a heavy pack and still jump in the fight with full vigor. But then among the Fellowship Gimli is the one who begs for rest, the one who has the hardest time conquering his fear to enter the Paths of the Dead, the one who is so stupidly naive as to think Balan is there to welcome them in Dwarven splendor at Moria. Galadriel wins his undying devotion by being kind to him in his racial defeat. Based on the characteristics with which Tolkien imbued the races, it should have been Gimli who blazed the trail through the snows of Caradhras while Aragorn and Boromir widened the tunnel. It should have been Gimli pushing them on to chase the Orcs across the Fields of Rohan. Maybe he was just spreading out human failings on a number of races but it seems like he gave the dwarves pride and vanity while the elves got nobility and honor and the hobbits got gluttony and sloth. 'Men are weak' it is known, that's fine but it feels like he gave the dwarves great attributes and then robbed them of those exact same attributes in the telling of the story. What do you think? Gimli is not comic relief in LOTR. He's pretty dour, but has a great many more virtues than faults. He's both an outstanding warrior, and a gifted craftsman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Dwarves always get the short end of the stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 On 7/11/2017 at 5:48 AM, litechick said: Gimli is the one who begs for rest, the one who has the hardest time conquering his fear to enter the Paths of the Dead It's been a while since I've read the books, but if my memory serves, Gimli's behavior regarding the Paths of the Dead is the prime example of dwarves' characteristics - going down the Paths is not something he wants to do, Paths scare him because of their otherwordly inhabitants, he's left standing alone when everyone has gone onwards and it's only his pride and his quest that move him on. Remember the part when the Fellowship is formed in Rivendell and Gandalf or Elrond say that there will be no oaths sworn by its members and Gimli says something along the lines of "an oath can strengthen the faltering heart"? There you have it - dwarf's mentality at its finest. On 7/11/2017 at 5:48 AM, litechick said: Based on the characteristics with which Tolkien imbued the races, it should have been Gimli who blazed the trail through the snows of Caradhras while Aragorn and Boromir widened the tunnel. It should have been Gimli pushing them on to chase the Orcs across the Fields of Rohan. I don't remember the bit regarding Caradhras all that well, but it's stuck in my mind that Boromir and Aragorn take the lead because of their longer arms or something like that. Could be wrong on that one, but I'm pretty sure Tolkien gave an explanation why Gimli is not taking the point at that time. On the Fields of Rohan, Gimli is keeping up with a Ranger and an Elf who both have much longer strides than his and not a single mention of Gimli slowing them down. That has to count for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 It's almost like the movies and books were two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 On 11/7/2017 at 5:48 AM, litechick said: But then among the Fellowship Gimli is the one who begs for rest, the one who has the hardest time conquering his fear to enter the Paths of the Dead, the one who is so stupidly naive as to think Balan is there to welcome them in Dwarven splendor at Moria. All members of the fellowship are shown to have weakness, and Gimli's are not particularly embarassing. Meanwhile, he usually is the most eager to embrace in battle against the orcs, he actually defeats Legolas in the killing game at Hornburg (which has lots of merit, since Legolas used his bow from a distance while he had to kill of his orcs in face-to-face combat), saves Pippin's life in the Black Gate,... On 11/7/2017 at 5:48 AM, litechick said: Based on the characteristics with which Tolkien imbued the races, it should have been Gimli who blazed the trail through the snows of Caradhras while Aragorn and Boromir widened the tunnel. It should have been Gimli pushing them on to chase the Orcs across the Fields of Rohan. Well, dwarves can be resolute and unwavering but... they're still dwarves. The snow that reached Legolas' knees covered Gimli's waist. For every step Aragorn took, Gimli had to take two. Actually, the fact that he managed to keep the pace is a prowess that has more merit than his companions'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 3 hours ago, maarsen said: Dwarves always get the short end of the stick. Yeah, but let's face it, they don't measure up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion's Double Axe Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Usual book to movie hassles on GOT,LOTR universes. In books, Gimli's dwarf crush on Galadriel begins after she defends him and the power, beauty of what his people created in Moria. This was after he was almost denied entry at border and Lord Celeborn also felt he should have been barred from Lothlorien given the Fellowship stirring up Balrog and Orcs and the fall of Gandalf. So it's the old Gimli looks at Galadriel and sees an ally not an enemy angle because she defends him and his homeland. Makes that parting gift of her hair a big deal because in books, dwarves are viewed by elves as greedy and grasping. So Gimli wins elves over by wanting such a weird, personal item that is not gold/silver/jewel. In movie it played out pretty well, but without the dwarf vs elf race and culture feud angle of books. He's a soldier going to possible death and he just wants to look on the great lady one last time. In books, Galadriel believes the riches won't ever corrupt him and she was right. And he was a fine warrior, a good dwarf to bring to a swordfight. Mae Govannen, Namarie from the Citadel library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Tyrion's Double Axe said: Makes that parting gift of her hair a big deal because in books, dwarves are viewed by elves as greedy and grasping. So Gimli wins elves over by wanting such a weird, personal item that is not gold/silver/jewel. Also, Galadriel had Uncle Feanor asking for a lock of her hair once, and she refused. Gimli succeeds where Feanor fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion's Double Axe Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 RBPL, Considering Feanor was a supremely talented troublemaker, that was smart. Also Gimli might have fallen for her because everyone else did too since she was Noldor princess hotness personified, just an opinion. "...and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost." ― The Return of the King, The Grey Havens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Size matters not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion's Double Axe Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Winter, coming is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Best Lit thread title in a long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkess Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Yeah I agree with the above: Tolkien didn't shaft the dwarves, but Jackson did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 On 7/13/2017 at 4:12 AM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: Also, Galadriel had Uncle Feanor asking for a lock of her hair once, and she refused. Gimli succeeds where Feanor fails. I imagine that when he sailed over the sea with Legolas, he and Galadriel became lovers. Uncle Feanor had wandering hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seiche Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 2 hours ago, SeanF said: I imagine that when he sailed over the sea with Legolas, he and Galadriel became lovers. Fanfic or it didn't happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion's Double Axe Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Let's see so far we've got Gimli hooking up with Galadriel in the Valinor afterlife, And Uncle Feanor is sounding more like Uncle Ernie in The Who/Tommy....making the Silmarils as he fiddles about, fiddles about. Fanfic possibles indeed. "I am the blood. I am God's right hand. I was born to be a king...." -- Paul Giamatti as King John, "Ironclad" Mae Govannen, Namarie from the Citadel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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