Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Sounds like dwarves are shafting at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 On 13/07/2017 at 5:11 PM, Tyrion's Double Axe said: Also Gimli might have fallen for her because everyone else did too since she was Noldor princess hotness personified, just an opinion. I disagree there. Gimli/Galadriel is an almost perfect example of courtly love, which should be distinguished from lust or even from classic romantic love. I mean, take Luthien, who really is hotness personified*. Celegorm lusts after her, Beren is in a romance with her, but I think it's Huan who demonstrates a sort of courtly love. *Female hotness anyway. The most attractive male Elf appears to be Maedhros, who was never in any relationship whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion's Double Axe Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 RBPL-A good pt. re: Tolkien and courtly love--Books Aragorn was honorable and gentlemanly in his turndown of Eowyn and her unrequited love. He had compassion for her, for the situation, yet respectful distance was maintained. ((plus Aragorn's long wait for Arwen-his years in the wild, battling, inspired by their pledge of love on Cerin Amroth--the knight and his lady.)). Gimli responded first to the Great Lady's understanding of him and his people and their love for Moria, but he began to appreciate her beauty. In a way, he's now her knight with her token of the hair and he will defend her honor and beauty in a conflict with Eomer. Elven women seemed able to cast their spell over mortals, Eomer declares Arwen the most beautiful and Gimli stands by Galadriel. Two knights ready to battle for their royal elf ladies. And Sam waxed lyrical about the Lady of the Wood to Faramir who called her perilously fair. I enjoyed Cate Blanchett's interpretation of the character, especially in the extended dvds. considerable cutting for the theater version. She has a moving scene with Aragon as she hints he might become king if he rises to greatness against Sauron, and then says they will never meet again--very haunting, yet inspiring. Mae Govannen/Namarie from the Citadel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liver and Onions Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 This is a fun thread! While I love the LOTR films, yeah, Gimli does get a lot of short jokes handed to him. Although the part in Helm's Deep where Legolas jokes about finding him a box and Gimli laughs in response is a good way to show how their friendship is developing. I do like how the Hobbit films fleshed out each dwarf in Thorin's Company, though, giving the actors room to contribute to their characters. The dwarves were definitely one of the best parts of the films (which I also enjoyed. ) I know the book is not quite as concerned with characterizing each dwarf and I don't consider that a fault. I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien chose the dwarf names from an actual list of "official" Norse Mythology dwarves? (strange as that sounds, which again makes me wish we knew more of Norse Mythology)... I totally bow to the prolific Tolkien experts on this board in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 11 hours ago, Liver and Onions said: I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien chose the dwarf names from an actual list of "official" Norse Mythology dwarves? (strange as that sounds, which again makes me wish we knew more of Norse Mythology)... [Geekery] The most famous and surviving Old Norse mythological poem is the Voluspa, the tale of the creation and destruction of the world. It's pretty heady stuff - except that at one point it breaks off to list a series of dwarf names. Just randomly. Tolkien's solution to this mystery? He'd use these names for his own story - basically, the idea was that the character names of The Hobbit had somehow ended up in an Old Norse text*. One of those dwarves was called Gandalf, which was the original name for Thorin, but Tolkien noticed it meant wand-elf - a better name for a wizard than a dwarf. The rest is history.. *Balin's name is the exception. He comes from King Arthur. [/Geekery]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Oh God, I hate The Hobbit films and what they did to the dwarves more than, jeez, more than most things. I'm not sure if I blame Jackson or the studio more. From what I've seen of the behind the scenes the first two films didn't even have a script and Jackson slept through the making oif most of the third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Praising The Hobbit films is a capital offense. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 On 7/13/2017 at 6:11 AM, Tyrion's Double Axe said: On 7/15/2017 at 6:47 PM, Tyrion's Double Axe said: RBPL-A good pt. re: Tolkien and courtly love--Books Aragorn was honorable and gentlemanly in his turndown of Eowyn and her unrequited love. He had compassion for her, for the situation, yet respectful distance was maintained. ((plus Aragorn's long wait for Arwen-his years in the wild, battling, inspired by their pledge of love on Cerin Amroth--the knight and his lady.)). Gimli responded first to the Great Lady's understanding of him and his people and their love for Moria, but he began to appreciate her beauty. In a way, he's now her knight with her token of the hair and he will defend her honor and beauty in a conflict with Eomer. Elven women seemed able to cast their spell over mortals, Eomer declares Arwen the most beautiful and Gimli stands by Galadriel. Two knights ready to battle for their royal elf ladies. And Sam waxed lyrical about the Lady of the Wood to Faramir who called her perilously fair. I enjoyed Cate Blanchett's interpretation of the character, especially in the extended dvds. considerable cutting for the theater version. She has a moving scene with Aragon as she hints he might become king if he rises to greatness against Sauron, and then says they will never meet again--very haunting, yet inspiring. Mae Govannen/Namarie from the Citadel. Isn't courtly love usually adulterous love, though? Platonic love perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liver and Onions Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 18 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: [Geekery] The most famous and surviving Old Norse mythological poem is the Voluspa, the tale of the creation and destruction of the world. It's pretty heady stuff - except that at one point it breaks off to list a series of dwarf names. Just randomly. Tolkien's solution to this mystery? He'd use these names for his own story - basically, the idea was that the character names of The Hobbit had somehow ended up in an Old Norse text*. One of those dwarves was called Gandalf, which was the original name for Thorin, but Tolkien noticed it meant wand-elf - a better name for a wizard than a dwarf. The rest is history.. *Balin's name is the exception. He comes from King Arthur. [/Geekery]. Oo! Thanks for that. Quite interesting. I love that this epic poem just takes an aside to list names, like a huge footnote in a Discworld novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liver and Onions Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 17 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: Oh God, I hate The Hobbit films and what they did to the dwarves more than, jeez, more than most things. I'm not sure if I blame Jackson or the studio more. From what I've seen of the behind the scenes the first two films didn't even have a script and Jackson slept through the making oif most of the third. I blame the studios for the flaws. It's easier that way. 12 hours ago, baxus said: Praising The Hobbit films is a capital offense. It is known. Yeah, I know (Ya gotta catch me first, copper! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion's Double Axe Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 SF, in ancient days AKA my college years, English Lit prof said courtly love is a massive case of frustrated longing for royal lineage folks who want but cannot have each other due to social rank, hierarchy, personal circumstances, other factors. So it's a weird case of lust and platonic love meeting and colliding. Sir Thomas Mallory, 1400s King Arthur legends compiler, said, “The very purpose of a knight is to fight on behalf of a lady.” And if she is married or otherwise unavailable, no matter how much he loves her, he must in no way dishonor her. He could accept an open gift from her before he fought a jousting match, pledge his loyalty to her according to the rules of gallantry, chivalry. But he and she must cross no lines. So he battles to be worthy of her. Wants her, can't have her and vice versa. Unless of course, you're modern Camelot book, tv, movie writers who hyped up the triangle of King Arthur, Queen Guenivere, and Arthur's first, best knight, Lancelot. ((and they all borrow from Mallory himself and his Arthur legends book)) The queen and knight commit the sin of giving into their lust, and Gwen is almost burned at the stake and ends up going to a convent. Lancelot helps cause civil war and Arthur's kingdom, dream of the Roundtable is over--the penalties for not following the "rules". Some priest way back then wrote 30 rules to follow for courtly love. It was an ordered society for the middle ages royals. Marriages for gaining power, increase family fortunes, cement for grand alliances. So the whole idea of what "true love" means, being free to love one another was indeed a romantic concept. And if a knight couldn't stand not being with his lady, well, there was always Knights Templar..... Mae Govannen, Namarie from the Citadel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I take issue with the statement that Gimli is Tolkien's representative for dwarves. There was an entire novel where most of the cast was dwarves where we saw a wide range of characterizations of dwarves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I think Litechick's comment is valid, and I agree with it. Any reading of LOTR returns the conclusion that the elves are just superior. They don't get sick, they don't get old, they don't die, they can walk on snow, they have ultra-keen senses, they are magical, they're hot, they're cold, they are all-temperature beings. As if that weren't enough, by the Third Age they are pretty well perfected, and have risen above all of the flaws that make characters interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/20/2017 at 4:20 PM, aceluby said: I take issue with the statement that Gimli is Tolkien's representative for dwarves. There was an entire novel where most of the cast was dwarves where we saw a wide range of characterizations of dwarves. Pfft that book isn't canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liver and Onions Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 This has actually made me wonder about dwarf representation in other forms of LOTR-inspired media, such as D&D, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms so forth. It's been a while since I've dipped my toes in those books. Anyone remember some good analyzation/fleshing out of dwarves culture in those books, with more just a mainstay like Flint Fireforge to represent? I know there are a ton of them so it's possible I missed a mini-series or three. But I remember tons of elven culture, dark elves, light elves, (both from Norse Mythology, true) and sea elves and stuff. Do dwarves get their due? Discworld obviously loves its dwarves, and that also makes me think about how few female dwarves seem to be out there. (But perhaps there really are more than we think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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