It's Brienne...

[Makk]

I used to think it might be Brienne for her ties with Jaime but I have gone cold on that. Cersei simply doesn't hold Jaime that dear. He is certainly not everything, which means Brienne would have to take her power, which has little to do with Jaime, as well. I don't think Jaimes story arc will see him back in Kings Landing or with Cersei.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Lovely poem (I thought you said you didn't know much about poetry...)!

I wasn't aware of that one of Shakespeare's.  Although it seems the poet is comparing her to the sun, 'like the fair sun', that doesn't make her equivalent to the sun astrologically speaking, nor in the context of this poem, in which there is confusion about the time of day, shortly following that stanza:

To which Adonis replies, assuring her it's evening:

Therefore, the light emanating from the blue windows of her eyes is a light shining in the darkness -- the evening star, Venus; not the sun.  

That she is a light in the darkness is also suggested by the lines prefacing the ones you quoted, implying the lady's eyes alleviate the night's sorrow, like a star coming out:

This relationship between sun, star, and Adonis is paralleled in ASOIAF by Cersei, Brienne and Jaime, respectively.  Cersei is directly compared to the sun; and by implication her downfall as represented by the walk of atonement is figuratively 'the end of the road' for her, and therefore a 'sunset' for her specifically, as well as for House Lannister more generally:

Except, as we know, Kevan did not find the sun waiting for him in his chambers, but the end of his road, his sunset (heralded by a white raven)!  In fact, one might say it's nearing the end of the road or sunset time more broadly for House Lannister, as I mentioned.

This is an allusion to the opening passage of the play Richard III also by Shakespeare, as discussed on the poetry thread.  In any case, we can safely say by the ADWD Epilogue that Winter has come in earnest for House Lannister.

As the sun sets, Venus rises.  In other words, Venus the Evenstar  i.e. Brienne (she also rises out of the Harrenhal bathtub like Venus in classical myth) -- casts down the Sun -- i.e. Cersei -- at sunset.

Further, it's clear Jaime does not agree with the sentiment expressed above, namely that 'however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun'.  He seems quite taken with the beauty of her 'burning torch' here:

With Brienne's advent, Jaime's darkness retreats.

 

As @purple-eyes pointed out, Brienne is the next Evenstar.  The evening star appears in the sky following sunset, so can be seen poetically to have cast down the sun (for more, see my explanation to LM above). 

Nice. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

35 minutes ago, Makk said:

I used to think it might be Brienne for her ties with Jaime but I have gone cold on that. Cersei simply doesn't hold Jaime that dear. He is certainly not everything, which means Brienne would have to take her power, which has little to do with Jaime, as well. I don't think Jaimes story arc will see him back in Kings Landing or with Cersei.

As I asked in the OP, What does Cersei hold dear? Cersei loves her children, but she is a terrible mother, and it seems to me that what she really loves is the power she derives from her children. And then there is Jaime, whom she loves as much as, if not more than, her children. And Cersei needs Jaime...

Quote

 

Even in her exhausted, frightened state, the queen knew she dare not trust her fate to a court of sparrows. Nor could she count on Ser Kevan to intervene, after the words that had passed between them at their last meeting. It will have to be a trial by battle. There is no other way. "Qyburn, for the love you bear me, I beg you, send a message for me. A raven if you can. A rider, if not. You must send to Riverrun, to my brother. Tell him what has happened, and write . . . write . . ."

"Yes, Your Grace?"

She licked her lips, shivering. "Come at once. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once."

"As you command. ‘I love you' thrice?"

"Thrice." She had to reach him. "He will come. I know he will. He must. Jaime is my only hope."

"My queen," said Qyburn, "have you . . . forgotten? Ser Jaime has no sword hand. If he should champion you and lose . . ."

We will leave this world together, as we once came into it. "He will not lose. Not Jaime. Not with my life at stake."

 

Cersei X, Feast 43

And she refuses to accept that he does not love her anymore...

Quote

 

"Jaime, then? Is it Jaime?"

"No. Jaime is still in the riverlands, somewhere."

"Somewhere?" She did not like the sound of that. "He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood's surrender," said her uncle, "but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman."

"A woman?" Cersei stared at him, uncomprehending. "What woman? Why? Where did they go?"

"No one knows. We've had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar's daughter, Lady Brienne."

Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man's mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come.

 

Cersei I, Dance 54

[kissdbyfire]

I like it. A lot. My only issue is similar to what @Makk brought up. Cersei doesn't love Jaime, and I don't think she ever did. She may have thought she did up to a point, but I find even that a bit hard to believe. After all, we meet Cersei as a young girl, and she was already totally self-involved, narcissistic, unable to feel empathy, arrogant, manipulative, etc etc. In other words, she was already the horrible person she is now. 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Me too. Rhaegar's presumed son will send the kingslayer turned kingmaker to the Wall after he offs his sister. 

LOL.  Now we are two - Jaime will go to the Wall at some point...

[kissdbyfire]

Jaime wanted to be Arthur Dayne, fought an outlaw band and instead of honour and glory became a "villain" despised by all. Now he will achieve honour and glory leading an outlaw band and heading north, to fight in the battle for the dawn. 

[Jaime4Brienne]

I put forth this theory a few months ago just to be rabidly shot down by everyone insisting it had to be a queen that usurped Cersie. Even after I searched online, found the exact text and posted it (which said nothing about it being a more beautiful QUEEN) they still shot me down so I gave up. I will laugh and laugh when we are proven right.

As far as her holding Jaime dear...well..Jaime is her power right? Someone annoys her, Jaime will take care of it (which was mentioned in a quote upstream). She's in trouble? Jaime will save her. He's not even a person to her, he's an appendage. 

[Jô Maltese]

Nicely put OP... But it actually points at Sansa being the YMBQ IMHO. Sansa, whom both Brienne and Jaime will pledge to eventually.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

38 minutes ago, Jaime4Brienne said:

I put forth this theory a few months ago just to be rabidly shot down by everyone insisting it had to be a queen that usurped Cersie. Even after I searched online, found the exact text and posted it (which said nothing about it being a more beautiful QUEEN) they still shot me down so I gave up.

To quote the once sheriff of Rock Ridge, and they was right.

Yes, Maggy doesn't repeat the same word over and over. "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear" is just more natural than "Queen you shall be... until there comes another queen, younger queen and more beautiful queen, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear". Just like with "children": Maggy doesn't bother repeating "ten-and-six children for him, and by him I mean the king from the previous sentence, and three children for you", to ensure that everybody was still on the same page.

Seriously, how does that sentence read: "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear"? As if "until" and "another" hanged in vacuum, or rather referred to the first half of the same sentence?

38 minutes ago, Jaime4Brienne said:

 I will laugh and laugh when we are proven right.

Right back at you.

(Possibly. Although, I think I'll be in my eighties when that eventually happens, so I'll probably forget).

[DarkBastard]

15 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

To quote the once sheriff of Rock Ridge, and they was right.

Yes, Maggy doesn't repeat the same word over and over. "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear" is just more natural than "Queen you shall be... until there comes another queen, younger queen and more beautiful queen, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear". Just like with "children": Maggy doesn't bother repeating "ten-and-six children for him, and by him I mean the king from the previous sentence, and three children for you", to ensure that everybody was still on the same page.

Seriously, how does that sentence read: "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear"? As if "until" and "another" hanged in vacuum, or rather referred to the first half of the same sentence?

Right back at you.

(Possibly. Although, I think I'll be in my eighties when that eventually happens, so I'll probably forget).

The Sheriff of Rock Ridge!  lmao!

You're probably right.  I always picture GRRM reading things like this and saying "not everything is encrypted, folks...come on!"  No wonder he is taking so long to finish, the expectations have grown exponentially!  

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

To quote the once sheriff of Rock Ridge, and they was right.

Yes, Maggy doesn't repeat the same word over and over. "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear" is just more natural than "Queen you shall be... until there comes another queen, younger queen and more beautiful queen, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear". Just like with "children": Maggy doesn't bother repeating "ten-and-six children for him, and by him I mean the king from the previous sentence, and three children for you", to ensure that everybody was still on the same page.

Seriously, how does that sentence read: "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear"? As if "until" and "another" hanged in vacuum, or rather referred to the first half of the same sentence?

Right back at you.

(PoIssibly. Although, I think I'll be in my eighties when that eventually happens, so I'll probably forget).

I agree, it could be read that way, but it doesn't have to be read that way. The point is certainly arguable. 

[foxberlin]

The moment we learn about the prophecy that influenced Cersei's relation to Sansa and Margaery in the previous books, is the same moment Brienne becomes a POV herself, making AFFC's chapters appear like a menage a trois between Jaime, Cersei and Brienne. "Her." 

[ravenous reader]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

"Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear" is just more natural than "Queen you shall be... until there comes another queen, younger queen and more beautiful queen, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear". Just like with "children": Maggy doesn't bother repeating "ten-and-six children for him, and by him I mean the king from the previous sentence, and three children for you", to ensure that everybody was still on the same page.

Seriously, how does that sentence read: "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear"? As if "until" and "another" hanged in vacuum, or rather referred to the first half of the same sentence?

LOL.  Haven't you noticed yet, GRRM likes 'hanging the reader in a vacuum' -- it's one of his favorite pastimes!  And as to 'more natural,' have you ever considered the sentence might read, '...until there comes an Other...to cast you down'?!    There are multiple readings to be had, especially from the prophecies; and you know what GRRM has cautioned about interpreting prophecy, 'it'll bite your prick off every time...'  Suffice it to say, no one should be getting too cocky!

5 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

 I always picture GRRM reading things like this and saying "not everything is encrypted, folks...come on!"

While I agree 'not everything is encrypted,' everything is equivocal, however.  

1 hour ago, foxberlin said:

The moment we learn about the prophecy that influenced Cersei's relation to Sansa and Margaery in the previous books, is the same moment Brienne becomes a POV herself, making AFFC's chapters appear like a menage a trois between Jaime, Cersei and Brienne. "Her." 

That's a great point about Brienne emerging as a POV in tandem with the prophecy (did you catch my thoughts on Venus's rise coinciding with the Sun's setting above?)  GRRM pays attention to details like that.  Another example would be 'Reek' receiving his name back from Bran at the heart tree 'communion' scene, after which his next POV chapter is entitled 'Theon' again.  

The name change also reflects Brienne's rise in Jaime's estimation and affections, from the anonymous 'wench' he used to deride and dismiss, to someone important to him, someone with a name, and moreover whose name he'll defend.  Most importantly, as in the case of the Bran-Theon scenario, she is the person who reciprocally gives him back his name, 'Jaime,' instead of the equally anonymous and derogatory 'kingslayer' epithet under which he's suffered.  The last thing he says before blacking out in the bathtub after their heart-to-heart is 'My name is Jaime,' affirming his identity to himself, analogous to Theon's affirmation 'My name is Theon.  You have to know your name'.  She's a very healing influence on him, just like in the Shakespeare poem LM quoted, where the coming of the Even'star is described as restorative:  'The night of sorrow now is turn'd to day...[she] cheers... and all the earth relieveth...'  Brienne is not only 'an other' woman, she's the other woman in the love triangle!

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

"And I'll serve you the same if you give me trouble," Steelshanks threw back. "We're taking the wench."

"Her name is Brienne," Jaime said. "Brienne, the maid of Tarth. You are still maiden, I hope?"

Her broad homely face turned red. "Yes."

"Oh, good," Jaime said. "I only rescue maidens.

 

A Feast for Crows - Jaime III

"Why, I went to Tarth and saw her. I had six years on her, yet the wench could look me in the eye. She was a sow in silk, though most sows have bigger teats. When she tried to talk she almost choked on her own tongue. I gave her a rose and told her it was all that she would ever have from me." Connington glanced into the pit. "The bear was less hairy than that freak, I'll—"

Jaime's golden hand cracked him across the mouth so hard the other knight went stumbling down the steps. His lantern fell and smashed, and the oil spread out, burning. "You are speaking of a highborn lady, ser. Call her by her name. Call her Brienne."

Connington edged away from the spreading flames on his hands and knees. "Brienne. If it please my lord." He spat a glob of blood at Jaime's foot. "Brienne the Beauty."

And then one of my favorite quotes revealing his transformation, where Jaime reverently writes her name 'Brienne' into the book of knights, giving her her due, and ending on a note of hope for himself:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King's Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.

When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to writefor himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.

Whatever he chose . . .

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

There are multiple readings to be had, especially from the prophecies; and you know what GRRM has cautioned about interpreting prophecy, 'it'll bite your prick off every time...'  Suffice it to say, no one should be getting too cocky!

[Frey family reunion]

I tend to agree with Ferocious that the prophecy does seem to say another queen will come along, and I agree that Brienne is not currently a queen.  But fortunately for Brienne and unfortunately for Cersei, there are all sorts of opportunities to "be queened" in Westeros.

You can be the wife/sister wife of the guy with the biggest dragon who makes everyone call him king and you queen.  Queens Viserys and Rhaenys.

You can marry the male and usually first born descendants of the guy with the biggest dragon.  Queens Targaryen.

You can get screwed out of your inheritance by the primogeniture laws of another culture.  Rhaenys, the Queen who never was.

You can marry the guy who killed and drove off the family who decided the whole continent was their birthright, and then by an agreement of two of his buddies, decide that the continent is now the birthright of his kids.  Queen Cersei.

You can be the last surviving member (to the best of your knowledge) of the self same family that got run out of a continent.  Queen Daneaerys.

You can be already married to a man who considers himself the king based on his blood relation to the prior usurper and his belief that the Usurpers' children aren't really his.  Queen Selyse.

You can marry the brother of the former usurper who believes he should be king, because the only other living brother to the king is so unlikeable.  Queen Margaery.

You can be married to a guy who believes his island should no longer be capriciously ruled by whoever sits on an throne of swords on the adjacent continent.  Queen Alannys.

You can get pregnant by a guy who declares himself to be the king of a group of people who don't believe in the idea of kings.  Queen Dalla.

You can marry the "son" of the former usurper of the Iron Throne.  Heck you can enjoy it so much you can do it twice.  Queen (again and again) Maragaery.

You can nurse, seduce, and then guilt into marriage a guy who's buddies call the King of the North. Queen Jeyne Westerling.

You can be the loveliest, or most virtuous, or at least spunkiest woman sitting in the audience of a joust.  Queens of love and beauty Lyanna, and Lyndsey Hightower.

You can be the head madam of a brothel in Braavos.  The Merling Queen.

You can routinely have sex with a guy who through sheer butchery names himself the king of a city in complete chaos.  Queen Whore.

You can have a really forceful personality (and kind of a ball breaker) who has to exert power through her idiot husband and then her idiot son because of her gender.  Olenna, the Queen of Thorns. 

And honorable mention are the two who came sooo close.  Almost queen Asha, who might have pulled it off, if she had spent a little more money on her campaign (I mean really, pincones?).  And Myrcella, who was almost "lucky" enough to be named queen thanks to her host family, deciding that their gender neutrall inheritance laws should really be the law of the rest of the land.

So as you can see, there is no glass ceiling in Westeros, just a glass slipper.

[HallowedMarcus]

Frey family reunion - read above

   Wow. Congratulations to put up all those kinds of Queens during and after the age of the Targaryen. It is funny but at the same time true!

[Makk]

23 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As I asked in the OP, What does Cersei hold dear? Cersei loves her children, but she is a terrible mother, and it seems to me that what she really loves is the power she derives from her children. And then there is Jaime, whom she loves as much as, if not more than, her children. And Cersei needs Jaime...

Cersei X, Feast 43

And she refuses to accept that he does not love her anymore...

Cersei I, Dance 54

She holds herself and power dear, much more so imo than anything she feels for Jaime. For the prophecy to fit, either Jaime has to be overwhelmingly the most important thing to her or the two of them being a catalyst for her fall from power.

I don't believe either of the quotes you provided support your argument. In your first quote Cersei only needs Jaime because the faith have her imprisoned. In the letter she is once again trying to manipulate Jaime, telling him what she thinks he wants to hear. Before she got into trouble she wanted him gone. The bit about them both leaving the world together is scary to me, it reads like if I am going down you are too.

As to the second quote, she is simply in disbelief that Jaime would refuse her.

She has always been quick to sleep around to gain favours or power. When she saw he lost his hand, she was repulsed by him. Cersei may (or not) love Jaime in some twisted sort of way, but if she does it is very much what he can do for her. It certainly doesn't seem to me that Jaime is "all she holds dear" which is required for the prophecy to be a good fit.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

23 minutes ago, Makk said:

She holds herself and power dear, much more so imo than anything she feels for Jaime. For the prophecy to fit, either Jaime has to be overwhelmingly the most important thing to her or the two of them being a catalyst for her fall from power.

I don't believe either of the quotes you provided support your argument. In your first quote Cersei only needs Jaime because the faith have her imprisoned. In the letter she is once again trying to manipulate Jaime, telling him what she thinks he wants to hear. Before she got into trouble she wanted him gone. The bit about them both leaving the world together is scary to me, it reads like if I am going down you are too.

As to the second quote, she is simply in disbelief that Jaime would refuse her.

She has always been quick to sleep around to gain favours or power. When she saw he lost his hand, she was repulsed by him. Cersei may (or not) love Jaime in some twisted sort of way, but if she does it is very much what he can do for her. It certainly doesn't seem to me that Jaime is "all she holds dear" which is required for the prophecy to be a good fit.

 

What if Brienne has pried Jaime away from Cersei, and then Jaime becomes Cersei's valonquar, killing her and removing her from power to pave the way for Rhaegar's son, the boy he regrets having failed? 

[Makk]

14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What if Brienne has pried Jaime away from Cersei, and then Jaime becomes Cersei's valonquar, killing her and removing her from power to pave the way for Rhaegar's son, the boy he regrets having failed? 

That is a possibility of what I alluded to when I said the two of them being a catalyst for her fall from power. It's similar to what I originally thought but I'm still not convinced it is a great fit. My thinking has changed significantly over the last five years and I don't see Jaime's story returning to Kingslanding or to Cersei. I think Tyrion will be the valonquar as that would make it a much sweeter self fulfilling prophecy. But who knows, there are quite a few different paths the story could go down. But I definitely don't believe Jaime is all Cersei holds dear.

[LynnS]

22 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaime wanted to be Arthur Dayne, fought an outlaw band and instead of honour and glory became a "villain" despised by all. Now he will achieve honour and glory leading an outlaw band and heading north, to fight in the battle for the dawn. 

Oh! Good one.  I'll go with that!

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

LOL.  Haven't you noticed yet, GRRM likes 'hanging the reader in a vacuum' -- it's one of his favorite pastimes!  And as to 'more natural,' have you ever considered the sentence might read, '...until there comes an Other...to cast you down'?!    There are multiple readings to be had, especially from the prophecies; and you know what GRRM has cautioned about interpreting prophecy, 'it'll bite your prick off every time...'  Suffice it to say, no one should be getting too cocky!

Hilarious RR!