sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: You can be the loveliest, or most virtuous, or at least spunkiest woman sitting in the audience of a joust. Queens of love and beauty Lyanna, and Lyndsey Hightower. If Jaime declares Brienne a Queen of Love and Beauty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: If Jaime declares Brienne a Queen of Love and Beauty Well... Maybe some of the good sers and ladies celebrating Brienne's victory at Bitterbridge kinda did do that, kinda? A Beauty! A Beauty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cridefea Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 On 11/7/2017 at 11:02 PM, Lost Melnibonean said: What does Cersei hold dear Cersei loves the power, the manipulations and the possibility to see herself in the others (or some parts of herself) like a mirror. Anyway, I agree, I really think it's Brienne in the prophecy. Now I'm really sleepy and can't write more , but great thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, Cridefea said: Cersei loves the power, the manipulations and the possibility to see herself in the others (or some parts of herself) like a mirror. Anyway, I agree, I really think it's Brienne in the prophecy. Now I'm really sleepy and can't write more , but great thread! Good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 58 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: If Jaime declares Brienne a Queen of Love and Beauty I love it! Do you think there might be a mythological reference here to the Judgment of Paris, where he invited disaster by going for the most sexy instead of most sensible choice in awarding the golden apple to 'the fairest'? The analogy would be an inverse parallel, in which by making the wiser choice the second time around (for the Athena figure, the goddess of wisdom, war, heroism, and crafts who is the fairest in a spiritual instead of merely physical sense, instead of seductive Aphrodite or jealous Hera), war would be averted. 'The just maid,' as in the legend of Brienne's ancestor, is a wordplay on 'fair maid,' and as Seams has highlighted 'just Ice '= justice, which relates to Oathkeeper, the sword Brienne carries. Quote Athena (/əˈθiːnə/; Attic Greek: Ἀθηνᾶ, Athēnā, or Ἀθηναία, Athēnaia; Epic: Ἀθηναίη, Athēnaiē; Doric: Ἀθάνα, Athānā) or Athene(/əˈθiːniː/; Ionic: Ἀθήνη, Athēnē), often given the epithet Pallas (/ˈpæləs/; Παλλὰς), is the goddess of wisdom, craft, and war[2] in ancient Greek religion and mythology. In later times, Athena was syncretized with the Roman goddess Minerva.[3] Athena was portrayed as having a calm temperament, and moving slowly to anger. She was believed to only fight for just causes and never fight without a purpose.[4] In ancient Greek literature, Athena is portrayed as the astute companion of heroes and as the patron goddess of heroic endeavour. She is also the patroness of Athens. The Athenians constructed the Parthenon atop their Acropolis as a temple to Athena; it takes its name from her epithet Parthenos, which means "Virgin".[3] Veneration of Athena was so persistent that archaic myths about her were recast to adapt to cultural changes.[citation needed] In her role as a protector of the city (polis), many people throughout the Greek world worshipped Athena as Athena Polias (Ἀθηνᾶ Πολιάς "Athena of the city"). While the city of Athens and the goddess Athena essentially bear the same name (Athena the goddess, Athenai the city), it is not known which of the two words is derived from the other.[5] And like Athena Parthenos, the 'Virgin', Brienne's maiden status as the Maid of Tarth is repeatedly emphasized, including as a virtue by Jaime, who says that 'innocence' is the quality he values above all in a woman. 20 minutes ago, Cridefea said: Cersei loves the power, the manipulations and the possibility to see herself in the others (or some parts of herself) like a mirror. Anyway, I agree, I really think it's Brienne in the prophecy. Now I'm really sleepy and can't write more , but great thread! Hi Cara . I have a new idea of what she prizes above all...keep reading, as follows... 2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: What if Brienne has pried Jaime away from Cersei, and then Jaime becomes Cersei's valonquar, killing her and removing her from power to pave the way for Rhaegar's son, the boy he regrets having failed? The thing Cersei holds dearest above all else, her deepest desire and raison d'être, is to forestall the valonqar prophecy! Quote A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII "Melara? No. I can hardly recall what she looked like. It is just . . . the maegi knew how many children I would have, and she knew of Robert's bastards. Years before he'd sired even the first of them, she knew. She promised me I should be queen, but said another queen would come . . ." Younger and more beautiful, she said. ". . . another queen, who would take from me all I loved." "And you wish to forestall this prophecy?" More than anything, she thought. "Can it be forestalled?" So, anything hastening rather than forestalling the valonqar prophecy would take from her all she holds dearest -- which can ultimately be translated as herself, since she's a narcissist, by anyone's standards. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. By driving Jaime away with her self-absorption, paranoia and viciousness, and into Brienne's arms who is the opposite in character, Cersei may indeed be fostering the creation of the valonqar. Tellingly, when he literally falls into her arms, after flailing 'wobbly as a limp cock' at his most vulnerable in the Harrenhal bath house, he thinks that Brienne is both 'stronger and gentler than Cersei'; she's also a 'maid' and in her guilelessness 'such an innocent,' unlike Cersei, and Jaime likes 'innocence' above all in a woman... Come to think of it, perhaps @DarkBastard has a point with Cersei herself being the 'younger more beautiful' one who destroys her -- the girl who irretrievably lost her innocence on the night she visited Maggy's tent, whereupon hearing the prophecy she became her own worst enemy..! The thing that might ultimately send Jaime over the edge is if she starts reminding him too much of Aerys: Quote A Feast for Crows - Jaime II Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him." Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew. The 'savage crowned beast' sounds like a lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: I love it! Do you think there might be a mythological reference here to the Judgment of Paris, where he invited disaster by going for the most sexy instead of most sensible choice in awarding the golden apple to 'the fairest'? The analogy would be an inverse parallel, in which by making the wiser choice the second time around (for the Athena figure, the goddess of wisdom, war, heroism, and crafts who is the fairest in a spiritual instead of merely physical sense, instead of seductive Aphrodite or jealous Hera), war would be averted. 'The just maid,' as in the legend of Brienne's ancestor, is a wordplay on 'fair maid,' and as Seams has highlighted 'just Ice '= justice, which relates to Oathkeeper, the sword Brienne carries. And like Athena Parthenos, the 'Virgin', Brienne's maiden status as the Maid of Tarth is repeatedly emphasized, including as a virtue by Jaime, who says that 'innocence' is the quality he values above all in a woman. Hi Cara . I have a new idea of what she prizes above all...keep reading, as follows... The thing Cersei holds dearest above all else, her deepest desire and raison d'être, is to forestall the valonqar prophecy! So, anything hastening rather than forestalling the valonqar prophecy would take from her all she holds dearest -- which can ultimately be translated as herself, since she's a narcissist, by anyone's standards. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. By driving Jaime away with her self-absorption, paranoia and viciousness, and into Brienne's arms who is the opposite in character, Cersei may indeed be fostering the creation of the valonqar. Tellingly, when he literally falls into her arms, after flailing 'wobbly as a limp cock' at his most vulnerable in the Harrenhal bath house, he thinks that Brienne is both 'stronger and gentler than Cersei'; she's also a 'maid' and in her guilelessness 'such an innocent,' unlike Cersei, and Jaime likes 'innocence' above all in a woman... Come to think of it, perhaps @DarkBastard has a point with Cersei herself being the 'younger more beautiful' one who destroys her -- the girl who irretrievably lost her innocence on the night she visited Maggy's tent, whereupon hearing the prophecy she became her own worst enemy..! The thing that might ultimately send Jaime over the edge is if she starts reminding him too much of Aerys: The 'savage crowned beast' sounds like a lion. Ok, now I'm dizzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 2 hours ago, LynnS said: Oh! Good one. I'll go with that! My very, very long wish list has Jaime wielding Dawn when he goes north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: My very, very long wish list has Jaime wielding Dawn when he goes north. How do you get from here to there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 27 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: How do you get from here to there? It's to do w/ my previous post... Jaime wanted to become Arthur Dayne when he was young. Then he becomes KG, fights an outlaw band and becomes the kingslayer. No honour, no next Arthur Dayne. Now he will lead an outlaw band and head north to join the battle for the dawn, achieving the honour he couldn't all those years ago. And since he'll "become Dayne", I would like for him to wield Dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: It's to do w/ my previous post... Jaime wanted to become Arthur Dayne when he was young. Then he becomes KG, fights an outlaw band and becomes the kingslayer. No honour, no next Arthur Dayne. Now he will lead an outlaw band and head north to join the battle for the dawn, achieving the honour he couldn't all those years ago. And since he'll "become Dayne", I would like for him to wield Dawn. But who gives him Dawn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 57 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: My very, very long wish list has Jaime wielding Dawn when he goes north. I'm hoping for redemption road and the hero's journey for Jaime as well. I'm inclined to think that Brienne will have the Dawn Sword in the end; especially since Jaime has lost his sword hand. My very, very long wish list is that Brienne will be the one to write down Jaime's deeds in the White Book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Just now, Lost Melnibonean said: But who gives him Dawn? Crackpots don't need an explanation, you just say, "Benjen is the Dusky Woman!", and that's it! Seriously, I don't know. I haven't really given much thought to who/when/how. It's in part b/c of his upcoming picnic meeting w/ LSH and the BwB. I have zero doubts that, if LSH asks or commands Brienne to kill Jaime, she (LSH) will be sorely disappointed. So, what happens next? I like the idea of Jaime leading the BwB because of the points I made previously. And wielding Dawn would be the ICE-ing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, LynnS said: I'm hoping for redemption road and the hero's journey for Jaime as well. I'm inclined to think that Brienne will have the Dawn Sword in the end; especially since Jaime has lost his sword hand. My very, very long wish list is that Brienne will be the one to write down Jaime's deeds in the White Book. Oh I like that, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Crackpots don't need an explanation, you just say, "Benjen is the Dusky Woman!", and that's it! Seriously, I don't know. I haven't really given much thought to who/when/how. It's in part b/c of his upcoming picnic meeting w/ LSH and the BwB. I have zero doubts that, if LSH asks or commands Brienne to kill Jaime, she (LSH) will be sorely disappointed. So, what happens next? I like the idea of Jaime leading the BwB because of the points I made previously. And wielding Dawn would be the ICE-ing on the cake. Have you seen this old thread? You might like it, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Have you seen this old thread? You might like it, or not. That looks interesting! Past my bedtime now but saved it and will read it as soon as I have time! ps: don't want to derail this one, but that BwB cave never fooled me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: That looks interesting! Past my bedtime now but saved it and will read it as soon as I have time! ps: don't want to derail this one, but that BwB cave never fooled me! Night night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 The thing Cersei loved best about Jaime was that he was the "male image" of herself. Lo and behold, that began to change after his odyssey across the Riverlands with Brienne So in a way, Brienne has already helped rob Cersei of something she holds dear. . . Quote "They cut off my hand." "No, it's more, you're changed." She backed off a step. "We'll talk later. On the morrow. I have Sansa Stark's maids in a tower cell, I need to question them . . . you should go to Father." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 On 7/11/2017 at 3:22 PM, ravenous reader said: Further, it's clear Jaime does not agree with the sentiment expressed above, namely that 'however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun'. He seems quite taken with the beauty of her 'burning torch' here: With Brienne's advent, Jaime's darkness retreats. I interpreted that dream about Jaime facing his demons, and how Brienne will be the one to help him through it. I think their encounter with Stoneheart will be when Jaime finally reaches his breaking point; all of his defense mechanisms and justifications won't matter any more, and he'll have to face his shame head-on. I'm still not quite sure what the line "the flames will burn so long as you live. When they die, so must you," means, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cridefea Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 18 hours ago, ravenous reader said: The thing Cersei holds dearest above all else, her deepest desire and raison d'être, is to forestall the valonqar prophecy! Absolutely, from now on she will do everything to escape her destiny. Her raison d'être, yes. What is not clear is if Maggy was referring to the present or the future, when she said "all that you hold dear." Because it changes a lot during time. 16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said: The thing Cersei loved best about Jaime was that he was the "male image" of herself. Lo and behold, that began to change after his odyssey across the Riverlands with Brienne So in a way, Brienne has already helped rob Cersei of something she holds dear. . . yes that's true!I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said: The thing Cersei loved best about Jaime was that he was the "male image" of herself. Lo and behold, that began to change after his odyssey across the Riverlands with Brienne So in a way, Brienne has already helped rob Cersei of something she holds dear. . . Exacty! And that he will be there for her needs no matter what happens. That's why she becomes desperate when he doesn't want to come to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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