The Biggest Red Herring in the Narrow Sea

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

LOL! I'm on board with this too. 

Heck, I think there might be six of us now. 

[LynnS]

37 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Heck, I think there might be six of us now. 

Those are my kind of numbers!  But I think you're counting me twice.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

18 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

So is "Jon's mother is Wylla" and "Young Griff is Aegon". Unreliable narrators are unreliable. I'm not sure why people are so willing to trust MMD's version of events with no evidence at all, when the author deliberately prevented reliable characters from witnessing the birth, but totally willing to accept that Ned was lying about Jon's mother to Robert.

I really don't get it.

Ned never tells anyone that Jon's mother is Wylla. People just assume it. Robert goes on about a woman named Wylla, and Ned listens quietly, never openly admitting that it's Jon's mother. He never tells anyone a name. It leads to people speculating left and right. hat's probably fine with Ned considering the implications if R+L=J is true.  Actually, I don't think he tells anyone that Jon is his son directly. He tells Cat that Jon is "of his blood" or something.

Young Griff believes he's Aegon because that's what he's been told. There's no doubt about that. Jon Connington may also genuinely believe that is true. We don't get a POV from people who really know the truth, Varys an Illyrio. Also, it's a mystery yet to be solved and we'll know more once WoW comes out. 

In Dany's case, it's not implied that Rhaego is dead, she really does lose the baby. Then in House of Undying she sees a vision of a grown up Rhaego as Stallion who Mounts the World. It's one of the things that never came to be that she sees. So the important point here is that not all prophesies come true and it's possible to interfere with foretold futures. 

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ned never tells anyone that Jon's mother is Wylla. People just assume it. Robert goes on about a woman named Wylla, and Ned listens quietly, never openly admitting that it's Jon's mother. He never tells anyone a name. It leads to people speculating left and right. hat's probably fine with Ned considering the implications if R+L=J is true.  Actually, I don't think he tells anyone that Jon is his son directly. He tells Cat that Jon is "of his blood" or something.

You're misremembering:

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

-A Game of Thrones, Eddard 12

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

In Dany's case, it's not implied that Rhaego is dead, she really does lose the baby.

She's told that the baby was stillborn, yes. By an extremely unreliable source. So again, why are you so ready to trust Mirri Maz Duur?

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

Those are my kind of numbers!  But I think you're counting me twice.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

8 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

You're misremembering:

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

-A Game of Thrones, Eddard 12

Robert is the one who calls Wylla the "bastard's mother." Here Ned doesn't confirm it. Ned probably had a girlfriend or someone by the name of Wylla, easy for everyone speculate as Jon's real mother. Throughout his chapters, Ned doesn't remember this supposed mother of Jon's , of course, and neither does he refer to him as his son anywhere. He does refer to Robb and Bran as his sons. There's only one time he tells Cat that Jon is of his blood and that's all she needs to know. 

8 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

She's told that the baby was stillborn, yes. By an extremely unreliable source. So again, why are you so ready to trust Mirri Maz Duur?

The baby is not stillborn. MMD tells Dany that the baby is born malformed with scaled skin, a little stub of a tail, and so on. MMZ calls it lizard like, but it could also be dragon like. Something caused by corruption bought on by MMZ's blood magic.Then Jorah kills the baby. Dany says she knows it. And a lot of people, including Jorah, Dany's handmaidens, possibly her loyalist Dothraki warriors, all see the malformed baby and witnesses its death. They were stranded in the middle of nowhere. Where would they hide a newborn baby? How would MMZ even do something like that with Jorah and Dany's loyalists watching? She didn't want to save Rhaego anyway, she does the blood magic to take revenge on Drogo and then prevent the Stallion Who Mounts the World from ever happening. 

[Damon_Tor]

3 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Robert is the one who calls Wylla the "bastard's mother." Here Ned doesn't confirm it.

That's jumping through some serious hoops to hear what you want. Robert asks Ned who Jon's mother is and Ned tells him it was Wylla. He doesn't say "Wylla was Jon's mother." but is that really the hair we're splitting here? By your reasoning we can't take Jorah's or MMD's answers to Dany's questions about Rhaego at face value either because answering "Where is Rhaego" with "He's dead" apparently is very different from saying "Rhaego is dead"?

8 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

The baby is not stillborn.

Daenerys is told he's stillborn, whether that's true or not.

“Tell me how my child died.”

“He never lived, my princess.

And

When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.”

11 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Then Jorah kills the baby. Dany says she knows it.

You should reread.

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness.

She believes Jorah killed her child when he chose to carry Daenerys into the tent, not that he literally snapped it's neck or slit its throat.

13 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Where would they hide a newborn baby?

The author describes the size of Duur's medicine chest.

32 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

They were stranded in the middle of nowhere.

And yet by the time Daenerys has recovered most of the Khalasar, and the slaves, are gone.

14 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

And a lot of people, including Jorah, Dany's handmaidens, possibly her loyalist Dothraki warriors, all see the malformed baby and witnesses its death... How would MMZ even do something like that with Jorah and Dany's loyalists watching?

They weren't. Jorah is only able to describe the baby based on what "the women say". He was in the tent but for some reason (speculation: extreme blood loss from the grievous wound he had taken to the leg) was unable to bear witness. We have no reason to believe anyone else was in the tent: we were told the Dothraki refused to come near it. Any assistance Mirri Maz Duur would have had would have come from the Llazarines. Yes, "the women" saw something which matches MMD's description of Rhaego's corpse. However, we have no reason to believe what they saw was Rhaego.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

14 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Robert asks Ned who Jon's mother is and Ned tells him it was Wylla.

That is not what Robert asks him. He asks him the name of a woman that Ned was supposedly with. The quote in the book Robert says "you know who I mean" and then it's him who calls Wylla Jon's mother. Ned never calls Jon's mother Wylla. She isn't even in his thoughts. Jon only remembers Lyanna and his promise to her. 

18 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

The author describes the size of Duur's medicine chest.

MMZ's medicinal chest is filled with jars and stuff. She hides a newborn baby in there in secret? Seriously? If it didn't die because of the bloodmagic, then it would surely die in the chest. lol. 

Why in the world would the other self-proclaimed khals, who hate the maegi, carry off her chest? Why would they keep Drogo's baby alive even if they knew? He's the new khal and they would kill the baby instantly. 

Also, there are no secrets in a khalasar. Everyone would have heard a newborn, screaming baby, even more so if it was shoved into a chest. 

Once more, why in the world would MMZ actually save Khal Drogo's son of prophesy? She explains later why she does it. She kills Drogo because he burned her temple. She then kills Rhaego precisely because she doesn't want him to become the Stallion and kill and pillage in the Dothraki way. 

26 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

They weren't. Jorah is only able to describe the baby based on what "the women say". He was in the tent but for some reason (speculation: extreme blood loss from the grievous wound he had taken to the leg) was unable to bear witness. We have no reason to believe anyone else was in the tent: we were told the Dothraki refused to come near it. Any assistance Mirri Maz Duur would have had would have come from the Llazarines. Yes, "the women" saw something which matches MMD's description of Rhaego's corpse. However, we have no reason to believe what they saw was Rhaego.

Jorah may have left the tent after carrying Dany inside. Dany is already miscarrying the baby. She feels sharp pains and wetness on her thighs--this is how miscarriages are often described. It's coincides with whatever MMZ is doing in her tent. Her baby is either stillborn or dies soon after. MMZ is not the only one who sees that because there are clearly other women as described. 

More importantly, the thing that is born is not Rheaego. It's the corruption and Rhaego, or rather the baby that might have been, is gone. It's literally spelled out that Rhaego is dead:

Quote

Dany released her wrist. My son is dead, she thought as Jhiqui left the tent. She had known somehow. She had known since she woke the first time to Jhiqui’s tears. No, she had known before she woke. Her dream came back to her, sudden and vivid, and she remembered the tall man with the copper skin and long silver-gold braid, bursting into flame.

GoT, 720

When Dany is unconscious, she understands that MMZ's curse has taken Rhaego. The dreams she has are not regular dreams. She sees her dead brothers, Jorah fading in and out (forewarning of his greyscale that happens later) and a grown version of her son that is consumed by fire, or the bloodmagic. 

The dream Dany has is sort of prophetic in that Dany is urged on to "wake the dragon." It turns out she is the last dragon, not Rhaegar, in those dreams she has. Then in her next chapter the dragons are born. And all those other things she sees are true as well, including Rhaego never coming to be the Stallion That Mounts the World. 

It's hard to see how GRRM could be vague here. He's quite clearly pointing out what is happening. Death pays for Life. Dany's three blood sacrifices, two she unknowingly makes, and one she knowingly makes, brings forth the dragons under the bleeding star. 

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

That is not what Robert asks him. He asks him the name of a woman that Ned was supposedly with. The quote in the book Robert says "you know who I mean" and then it's him who calls Wylla Jon's mother. Ned never calls Jon's mother Wylla. She isn't even in his thoughts. Jon only remembers Lyanna and his promise to her. 

To be totally clear, I'm not saying Wylla is Jon's mother.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

MMZ's medicinal chest is filled with jars and stuff. She hides a newborn baby in there in secret? Seriously? If it didn't die because of the bloodmagic, then it would surely die in the chest. lol.

Are you saying it's impossible for a baby to exist alongside medical equipment? Or that jars can't just be moved?

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Why in the world would the other self-proclaimed khals, who hate the maegi, carry off her chest? Why would they keep Drogo's baby alive even if they knew? He's the new khal and they would kill the baby instantly.

I assume she had other Llazarines remove the chest. There has to be a Llazarine wetnurse waiting to receive it. Once a Llazarine mother has possession of Rhaego there would have been no reason for any of the other Dothraki to suspect the infant was anything except another Llazarine infant. Either they slip away at night on their own or they remain with one of the would-be Khals that splinter off from the Khalasar and get sold as slaves.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Also, there are no secrets in a khalasar. Everyone would have heard a newborn, screaming baby, even more so if it was shoved into a chest.

Babies don't always cry. When a mom is drugged during the birth they usually don't cry at all or cry very faintly because they're drugged too as well.

2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Once more, why in the world would MMZ actually save Khal Drogo's son of prophesy? She explains later why she does it. She kills Drogo because he burned her temple. She then kills Rhaego precisely because she doesn't want him to become the Stallion and kill and pillage in the Dothraki way.

Again, what part of her behavior makes her seem trustworthy to you? Why do you assume she's telling the truth when she's describing her motives? There are a ton of reasons you would want to keep a prophesied child alive for your own cause.

 

2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Jorah may have left the tent after carrying Dany inside. Dany is already miscarrying the baby. She feels sharp pains and wetness on her thighs--this is how miscarriages are often described. It's coincides with whatever MMZ is doing in her tent. Her baby is either stillborn or dies soon after. MMZ is not the only one who sees that because there are clearly other women as described.

Pain and wet thighs is just "birth".

The other women describe the corpse to Jorah. There's no implication they saw it pulled from Daenerys.

2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

When Dany is unconscious, she understands that MMZ's curse has taken Rhaego. The dreams she has are not regular dreams. She sees her dead brothers, Jorah fading in and out (forewarning of his greyscale that happens later) and a grown version of her son that is consumed by fire, or the bloodmagic. 

The dream Dany has is sort of prophetic in that Dany is urged on to "wake the dragon." It turns out she is the last dragon, not Rhaegar, in those dreams she has. Then in her next chapter the dragons are born. And all those other things she sees are true as well, including Rhaego never coming to be the Stallion That Mounts the World.

So on one hand you argue that prophecy is unreliable, and on the other you argue that Rhaego is dead because a dream you think is prophetic implies that he is.

2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

It's hard to see how GRRM could be vague here.

Hard to see why he wouldn't be explicit. Leave Jorah as a reliable witness to the birth, or allow the corpse to be viewed by Daenerys (and thus the readers) after the fact. The deliberate obfuscation should be the first clue that something isn't what it seems.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

I feel like I'm being taken for a ride with this Rhaego is alive theory. Wth? 

10 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Are you saying it's impossible for a baby to exist alongside medical equipment? Or that jars can't just be moved?

MMZ doesn't have "medical equipment" she has herbal jars and pots and whatever she claims to be medicinal. You can't cram a delicate newborn in there with all that stuff. When the chest is closed, how would the baby breathe? 

 

10 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Once a Llazarine mother has possession of Rhaego there would have been no reason for any of the other Dothraki to suspect the infant was anything except another Llazarine infant.

Yes they would. Rhaego has silver hair and violet eyes. How would MMZ pass a newborn to a slave anyway? Also, only the strong slaves were taken away, the weak were left behind, like another mother with a newborn that dies. Mothers with newborns can't ride because the babies don't survive those journeys. It would have been left behind anyway. 

10 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Babies don't always cry. When a mom is drugged during the birth they usually don't cry at all or cry very faintly because they're drugged too as well.

Yes they do. Newborns wail, it expands their lungs and allow them to breathe. If a newborn doesn't wail, that's a major cause for concern. Babies don't get drugged when the mother is given painkillers. That's crazy. Also, Dany is not drugged here anyway. 

10 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Again, what part of her behavior makes her seem trustworthy to you? Why do you assume she's telling the truth when she's describing her motives? There are a ton of reasons you would want to keep a prophesied child alive for your own cause.

Uh, no. MMZ is driven by vengeance. She doesn't care about Rhaego, she wants all Dothraki to end at that point. That's why she curses Drogo and his son. She does the world a favor by making sure the Stallion never comes to be. It's terrible for Dany, but who wouldn't do the same thing? At that point she knows she's cornered. She no longer has any cause for lying. She didn't personally have anything against Dany anyway. And she could have let her keep the baby, and MMZ would have kept her life. Why would he put her own life in danger if it can be helped?

10 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Pain and wet thighs is just "birth".

The other women describe the corpse to Jorah. There's no implication they saw it pulled from Daenerys.

If Dany was going to give birth, she would have gotten labor pains and her water would have broken. Not blood. That doesn't happen because it's not her time yet. 

Why does Jorah need to see the corpse thing for it to be true? Why would the other women and Dany's handmaidens be unreliable but what Jorah says is true?

10 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

So on one hand you argue that prophecy is unreliable, and on the other you argue that Rhaego is dead because a dream you think is prophetic implies that he is.

I didn't say prophesies are unreliable. Some of the prophesies don't come to be true if they are interfered with as MMZ does with the Stallion. We learn this in House of Undying in ACoK I'm not sure whether the dream Dany has can be described as "prophetic." Forseeing maybe? She's being urged on to "wake the dragon here." And she sees dead mean, plus Jorah who will later get greyscale. The adult Rhaego being consumed by fire is highly symbolic of the baby disappearing because of the curse. That's when she knows that Rhaego is gone. Also, Rhaego in her vision has a burning heart, which is like the trademark of Lord of the Light. 

10 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Hard to see why he wouldn't be explicit. Leave Jorah as a reliable witness to the birth, or allow the corpse to be viewed by Daenerys (and thus the readers) after the fact. The deliberate obfuscation should be the first clue that something isn't what it seems.

Jorah probably saw what happened but he can't talk about it. This is not how GRRM obfuscates things. The thing with Ned is how he does that. Here he is definitely explicitly telling us what happens to Rhaego.  MMZ's motivations are also clearly explained in the end. Having a vulnerable and possibly premature newborn being snuck out of barren wasteland into a slave mart expecting him to live is definitely not GRRM logic. It's just crazy. GRRM is showing us that in this world, not all prophesies come true. That's important to remember with everything that's being said about the Long Night to come. 

[Damon_Tor]

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I feel like I'm being taken for a ride with this Rhaego is alive theory. Wth? 

MMZ doesn't have "medical equipment" she has herbal jars and pots and whatever she claims to be medicinal. You can't cram a delicate newborn in there with all that stuff. When the chest is closed, how would the baby breathe?

So move some jars? This is the weirdest sticking point. "Babies can't be in boxes." Really?

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Yes they would. Rhaego has silver hair and violet eyes.

Everything we know about Valyrian genetics suggests he would have his father's dark hair and eyes dark enough to hide the violet.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

How would MMZ pass a newborn to a slave anyway?

Inside the chest.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Yes they do. Newborns wail, it expands their lungs and allow them to breathe. If a newborn doesn't wail, that's a major cause for concern.

Father of two here. Neither of my two children "wailed" after being born, they "mewed" softly. They were entirely healthy and breathing fine.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Babies don't get drugged when the mother is given painkillers. That's crazy.

Drugs are absolutely transferred from mother to infant via the placenta. Why do you think you aren't supposed to smoke or drink while pregnant? The same is true for any general anesthetic. A modern epidural is injected directly into the spine and (in theory) doesn't enter the bloodstream, but any medicine ingested by the mother will effect the child as well. There's a reason they stopped giving birthing moms morphine.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Also, Dany is not drugged here anyway.

We have no idea what happened inside that tent. She probably didn't need to drug Daenerys or the baby, but if she had to do so (even if only to keep her secret) there was nothing stopping her. She had complete access to her medicine chest.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Uh, no. MMZ is driven by vengeance.

That's what she says, yes. We have to take her word on it, and it doesn't match her behavior.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Why would he put her own life in danger if it can be helped?

That's actually the most obvious reason we know there's something off about her motives. If she wanted to kill Rhaego to end the prophecy the magic was entirely unnecessary: Daenerys had already agreed to allow her to deliver the child, which would have given her the perfect opportunity to kill him without the need for theatrics. If her plan all along was to kill Rhaego with magic, why does Duur warn Daenerys not to ask her do it? Then why does she warn her not to enter the tent?

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

If Dany was going to give birth, she would have gotten labor pains and her water would have broken. Not blood. That doesn't happen because it's not her time yet.

Again, you should reread the chapter. We have no reason to believe the wetness she felt was blood. You're making assumptions.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Why does Jorah need to see the corpse thing for it to be true?

The point is, nobody saw Rhaego pulled from Daenerys. The only person besides Mirri Maz Duur and Daenerys who was inside the tent, Jorah, cannot describe the infant in his own words. This means there were zero witnesses to the birth. We don't know exactly why Jorah didn't see the birth, but blood loss is a good educated guess based on the severity of the wound he had taken just before.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I didn't say prophesies are unreliable. Some of the prophesies don't come to be true if they are interfered with as MMZ does with the Stallion.

If prophecies can be interfered with, they are unreliable.

On 9/18/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Having a vulnerable and possibly premature newborn being snuck out of barren wasteland into a slave mart expecting him to live is definitely not GRRM logic.

I mean, Gilly's baby was snuck out of Craster's keep just fine. Way more inhospitable then the Dothraki Sea IMO.

[kissdbyfire]

On 15/09/2017 at 1:39 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I feel the same about Arya being the maid that will slay Petyr the savage giant, and Petyr having hired the Faceless Man that paid Arya's debt to the red god to kill Eddard.

Can you elaborate a bit or perhaps you have one of those nice, shiny links?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Can you elaborate a bit or perhaps you have one of those nice, shiny links?

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/89914-littlefinger-hired-a-faceless-man-to-kill-ned/

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/89914-littlefinger-hired-a-faceless-man-to-kill-ned/

 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

So move some jars? This is the weirdest sticking point. "Babies can't be in boxes." Really?

Yes, they'll suffocate. Newborns are kept close to mothers, or some human, because they need skin contact. A baby would very likely die inside a chest filled with glass and sharp objects. 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

Everything we know about Valyrian genetics suggests he would have his father's dark hair and eyes dark enough to hide the violet.

Dany sees her son in two visions. Both times he has brown skin, silver hair, and violet eyes. What don't know anything about Valyrian genetics to suggest that he would have dark hair and dark eyes. 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

Inside the chest.

Oh so the Dothraki totally don't notice the slaves they are herding are carrying the maegi's chest, which is quite large?

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

Father of two here. Neither of my two children "wailed" after being born, they "mewed" softly. They were entirely healthy and breathing fine.

Did you actually see your children the moment they were born or after the nurse has washed them? Babies cry the moment they are born, even if not loudly you would see their mouths opening and faces scrunching up. Their lungs need to expand for them to live. But in a modern hospital setting the doctors would make sure that the newborn can breathe, unlike in a medieval setting, and also the middle of nowhere. 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

We have no idea what happened inside that tent. She probably didn't need to drug Daenerys or the baby, but if she had to do so (even if only to keep her secret) there was nothing stopping her. She had complete access to her medicine chest.

Why would she drug Dany, she loses consciousness when Jorah takes her into the tent. Yes we do know what happened inside the tent, MMZ pulls out a dead, cursed baby out of Dany shaped weirdly like an anthropomorphic dragon. 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

That's what she says, yes. We have to take her word on it, and it doesn't match her behavior.

On 9/18/2017 at 3:27 PM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

How in the world does MMZ's actions don't match her words? She does everything she says she does. She "treats" Drogo and does the spell Dany wants to. She warns her too. Then when everything goes to hell, MMZ reveals her motivations, which are completely understandable. 

 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

That's actually the most obvious reason we know there's something off about her motives. If she wanted to kill Rhaego to end the prophecy the magic was entirely unnecessary: Daenerys had already agreed to allow her to deliver the child, which would have given her the perfect opportunity to kill him without the need for theatrics. If her plan all along was to kill Rhaego with magic, why does Duur warn Daenerys not to ask her do it? Then why does she warn her not to enter the tent?

She was going to be sold as a slave! Dany was "near" her time, which could have been weeks or months because it's not really specified how far along she is. How in the world could she have killed Rhaego, the khal's baby, when the birth would have been a major event? There would have been those herb women and medicine eunuchs and everyone inside the tent. MMZ warns her not to enter the tent because it would have interfered with the spell she did. She is a godswife and a maegi. She wanted to avenge her people, so she did it with that spell to make khal Drogo one of the living dead. Rhaego dies in the tradeoff for the spell. She listens to Dany because Dany saved her from the rapers and possibly also saved her life. MMZ gives Dany what she wants, but not in the way she thinks. Though she owes Dany, she also owes her people and also her gods. So it's a twisted form of giving one what's due. 

MMZ's motivations are also explained in the forewarnings the Undying gives Dany: three betrayals, once for blood. 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

The point is, nobody saw Rhaego pulled from Daenerys. The only person besides Mirri Maz Duur and Daenerys who was inside the tent, Jorah, cannot describe the infant in his own words. This means there were zero witnesses to the birth. We don't know exactly why Jorah didn't see the birth, but blood loss is a good educated guess based on the severity of the wound he had taken just before.

The handmaids and the other women saw the corpse. That's why they cry and keep away. Dany was out for more than a day. The baby somehow survived inside the chest without milk? geez. Oh and if he left with one of the slaves, he was nursed how exactly? The mothers with newborns were left behind. 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

If prophecies can be interfered with, they are unreliable.

How so? If there's a prophesy about the doom of the world, then it's going to happen no matter what? Then what's the point of the story anyway. GRRM is not aiming for fatalism here IMO. 

On 9/20/2017 at 3:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

I mean, Gilly's baby was snuck out of Craster's keep just fine. Way more inhospitable then the Dothraki Sea IMO.

Gilly's baby was with his mother, who kept him warm and nursed him. 

Rhaego is alive is possibly the stupidest theory I have seen on this forum. It requires ignoring the text and making logic leaps. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't explain how the spell worked if Rhaego didn't die. Magic requires a tradeoff. 

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Yes, they'll suffocate. Newborns are kept close to mothers, or some human, because they need skin contact. A baby would very likely die inside a chest filled with glass and sharp objects. 

We're beginning to argue in circles. Again, simply remove the sharp objects, set them aside. And are you thinking he'd spend the whole journey to Lhazar (or wherever)? He's got to spend a few minutes in there. Plenty of oxygen in a chest that size for an infant.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Dany sees her son in two visions. Both times he has brown skin, silver hair, and violet eyes. What don't know anything about Valyrian genetics to suggest that he would have dark hair and dark eyes.

We have no reason to believe that Daenerys has any prophetic ability. And yes, every time a Targaryen crosses with someone without Valyrian-eque genetic lineage (Dayne and perhaps Hightower are deliberate exclusions) the darker hair color always supersedes. Since there's no reason to believe Drogo has any Valyrian ancestry, we should expect their child to have dark hair.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Oh so the Dothraki totally don't notice the slaves they are herding are carrying the maegi's chest, which is quite large?

Rhaego only needs to be inside the chest between the tent and wherever the wetnurse is. After that, he's just another Llazarine infant, no further deception required. The Dothraki ignoring this is easily explained by their fear of the proceedings (most refused to even be near the tent) and the chaos surrounding the fracturing of the khalazar.

Quote

Did you actually see your children the moment they were born or after the nurse has washed them?

Of course I did.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Yes we do know what happened inside the tent, MMZ pulls out a dead, cursed baby out of Dany shaped weirdly like an anthropomorphic dragon.

We only have her word on that. Odd character to decide to trust.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

How in the world does MMZ's actions don't match her words? She does everything she says she does. She "treats" Drogo and does the spell Dany wants to. She warns her too. Then when everything goes to hell, MMZ reveals her motivations, which are completely understandable.

If you want someone to die as a side effect of something, why warn them not to do it, and then warn them not to be near it when you're doing it? "I need you to stay in the tent for reasons. It's perfectly safe, don't worry." That's what you'd say.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

How in the world could she have killed Rhaego, the khal's baby, when the birth would have been a major event?

She's delivering the child, an event you've obviously never seen. Yes, the person delivering an infant can kill it if they choose to do so, and in a way that appears to be totally natural.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

The baby somehow survived inside the chest without milk? geez. Oh and if he left with one of the slaves, he was nursed how exactly? The mothers with newborns were left behind.

Again, arguing in circles. He only had to be in the chest for minutes. Yes, a wetnurse is required. I'm largely agnostic on where he was taken, but there are several options. It's entirely possible the wetnurse and some other Lhazareen made it back to Lhazar and that he was never taken by a new Khal at all, but we also have no reason to believe newborns were left behind. The novel specifically notes that the old and weak were, not newborns: newborns are not without value at a slave market. Daenery's journey killed newborns because she was deliberately riding through the desert to avoid both the Dothraki and the Lhazarines. Do you really think the Dothraki are incapable of migrating with newborns?

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

How so? If there's a prophesy about the doom of the world, then it's going to happen no matter what? Then what's the point of the story anyway.

At no point does any prophecy imply the world is doomed.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Rhaego is alive is possibly the stupidest theory I have seen on this forum.

Well then you probably should just ignore it then. As noted, we're arguing in circles now.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Not to mention the fact that it doesn't explain how the spell worked if Rhaego didn't die. Magic requires a tradeoff.

Demonstrably untrue. Thoros of Myr brings Beric Dondarrion back from the dead without killing anything. The only reason we think Rhaego had to die is because Duur said so, so we're back to "why do people trust Duur?"

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

We're beginning to argue in circles. Again, simply remove the sharp objects, set them aside. And are you thinking he'd spend the whole journey to Lhazar (or wherever)? He's got to spend a few minutes in there. Plenty of oxygen in a chest that size for an infant.

You say MMD could have hid a newborn in her medicine chest, given the chest to some slave who would have ridden off with one of the Dothraki who abandoned Drogo. Then the baby would come out of the chest to breathe and be nursed by a slave woman who would also have given birth. And during this journey the baby would not die. A newborn, possibly premature baby wouldn't survive being stuffed in a chest. Someone would have seen it. The baby needs to be nursed the moment it's born anyway. But none of the safety precautions occurs and Rhaego somehow miraculously survives. Of course, no one sees MMZ passing over a chest, or hears a baby inside. Rhaego is a good baby who sleeps quietly. And the Dothraki, who absolutely loathes the maegi, don't notice her chest. And no one notices a new baby popping out of nowhere because there are so many pregnant women there? This is exactly the sort of stretch GRRM doesn't allow. 

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

We have no reason to believe that Daenerys has any prophetic ability.

Have you been reading the books? Of course Dany has prophetic dreams just like her ancestors. She dreams the waking of dragons early in GoT. Then her dream when she is out at the end is sort of prophetic. Then in later books she has similar dreams, like the army of ice. Of course Dany has that Targ prophetic ability where dreams do actually come true. It's not to the strong level of being an actual oracle of some sort, but it's like what Egg in the other books have. (I haven't read them, but there's a collection of dream prophesies from that series in the Citadel section). 

 

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

And yes, every time a Targaryen crosses with someone without Valyrian-eque genetic lineage (Dayne and perhaps Hightower are deliberate exclusions) the darker hair color always supersedes. Since there's no reason to believe Drogo has any Valyrian ancestry, we should expect their child to have dark hair.

This is highly speculative. Even GRRM has admitted that his "seed is strong" dark hair supersedes light hair from AGoT was wrong. So there's no way what you say is an actual accepted fact. Dany just doesn't dream Rhaego with copper skin and silver hair and violet eyes. It's the same Rhaego she's shown in House of Undying as well. Same figure from two different accounts. That's how Rhaego would have looked like if he had actually been born. 

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

We only have her word on that. Odd character to decide to trust.

Why would MMD be an unreliable character? It turns out what she says is actually true, after a fashion. She doesn't deliberately try to deceive Dany. She bandages Drogo's would as he asks her to, and then after the spell he is still alive. Considering that she hasn't lied to Dany's face outright so far, why would you believe that she is lying when she says her baby came out some lizard creature that's been dead for years? The dead part being the key word here. 

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

Yes, the person delivering an infant can kill it if they choose to do so, and in a way that appears to be totally natural.

They can strangle the baby, but that would be hard with spectators. MMZ could try snapping the baby's neck, or drowning it or whatever, but that's not easy with others there. This is also assuming that she would actually get to deliver the baby. 

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

but we also have no reason to believe newborns were left behind. The novel specifically notes that the old and weak were, not newborns: newborns are not without value at a slave market. Daenery's journey killed newborns because she was deliberately riding through the desert to avoid both the Dothraki and the Lhazarines. Do you really think the Dothraki are incapable of migrating with newborns?

Women who are heavily pregnant or has just given birth cannot ride. That's why that one woman and her baby gets left behind. Dothraki can migrate with newborns, but the mother and the baby would probably be carried. Dany noticed that the newborn dies because it cannot withstand the ride, not because of the climate. 

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

At no point does any prophecy imply the world is doomed.

There are at least two I remember. There's Septon Barth's claim of a Valyrian prophesy that says doom of man comes from the west. There's also that Dothraki saying of ghost grass covering the whole world consuming everything that is alive. Both these prophesies strongly allude to the Others. 

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

Demonstrably untrue. Thoros of Myr brings Beric Dondarrion back from the dead without killing anything.

He's a red priest of R'hllor.  He doesn't know how it happens because that's not what he intends. That's why red priests believe the Lord of the Light brings people back from the dead at his will. So that case would be divine intervention, maybe, because Thoros doesn't do any magic as far as we know. But there is a give-take where the resurrected aren't as human as they were before. Maybe their own death pays for their undead life. He does it again with Catelyn and we know she's not the same after. Also, that sort of happens off screen so we don't know if he actually did some ritual.  

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

The only reason we think Rhaego had to die is because Duur said so, so we're back to "why do people trust Duur

Only if you ignore the two visions and Pyat Pree telling Dany of her blood betrayal. As I said before, MMD doesn't outright lie. It's a good question if she deceived Dany, or Dany just chose to trust her without asking the right questions. 

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

The baby needs to be nursed the moment it's born anyway

No, a child doesn't need to nurse "the moment it's born." It's normal for an infant to take several hours before it even figures out how to latch onto a breast. And the milk doesn't come in for several days. And infants typically lose about a pound (10-20% of their bodyweight) in the first week of life because of these factors. That's 100% normal.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

but it's like what Egg in the other books have.

Egg doesn't have prophetic dreams either. There are Targaryens (and Blackfyres) who have prophetic dreams, but Egg isn't one of them. He believes strongly in prophecy, but the prophecies are never his own.

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I haven't read them...

Yeah, I've been getting that impression.

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Egg doesn't have prophetic dreams either. There are Targaryens (and Blackfyres) who have prophetic dreams, but Egg isn't one of them. He believes strongly in prophecy, but the prophecies are never his own.

Perhaps he will. 

[SirArthur]

On 15.9.2017 at 7:39 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I feel the same about Arya being the maid that will slay Petyr the savage giant, and Petyr having hired the Faceless Man that paid Arya's debt to the red god to kill Eddard.

Oh I think Arya will pose as fArya and Littlefinger will tell everyone that this Arya is fake. This may be Fanfic but in my mind Arya will replace fArya at some point and become the greatest troll in all of Westeros.