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Daenerys Demurred


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17 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

It is.  But not for Daenerys.  She has the potential to become the greatest Targaryen of all time.  The liberation of 250 thousands slaves is a tall order for anyone.  Daenerys has done it.  Leading a weak khalasar consisting of the old and the infirm through an inhospitable desert is a tall order.  Daenerys has done it.  For a soft, young girl to survive the Dothraki is a tall order.  Daenerys has done it.  She won Drogo's love and respect.  Waking dragons from stone is impossible.  Daenerys has done it.  Just admit it.  Daenerys is awesome!

True, those are all impressive things. However doing something that not even the Valyrian Freehold accomplished would be far more difficult. The Valyrian Freehold had problems controlling Essos even with a huge amount of dragons/dragon riders and military outposts. They fought many wars to keep and expand their empire. Then you have Westeros and the problems she will face there with winter and everything else. Even as a dragon rider Dany is only one person and can only be one place at a time. 

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How do you know that?

Are you asking me? Because if you are, then this is something I did not say because it came from the OP. I agreed to it because I do think it will be her undoing because she is following both prophecy (getting her "cock" bitten off) and what she feels is her "right", even though she has never set foot in Westeros, does not understand its politics, and cannot even so much as line up which house goes to which banner. I think her eyes are larger than her stomach.

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There is usually not all that much of a difference between these two. Usually conquerors are great rulers, especially in this series and its history (evident in many of the conquering kings of old - Theon Stark, Artys Arryn, Benedict Rivers, Harwyn Hardhand, Aegon Targaryen, etc.).

And yet in the current story we have two, three if you count Bran which I do but for the sake of this discussion I will stick to Jon and Daenerys, people with an arc moving to either conquering or ruling. One yearns for the throne, one has never had a real thought about it because he is not seeking it out.

At the end of ADWD, Dany has become a Dothraki, she eats the fire and blood of the horse, as the Dothraki do. The Dothraki do not rule, they rape, pillage, steal gods, and lay waste to the land they touch.

This is what the Dothraki do when they come to a new town/land:

"And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing." His voice rose, and he lifted his fist to the sky. "I will take my khalasar west to where the world ends, and ride the wooden horses across the black salt water as no khal has done before. I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children as slaves, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains. This I vow, I, Drogo son of Bharbo. This I swear before the Mother of Mountains, as the stars look down in witness."

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Rulers who just inherent a kingdom usually have less legitimacy than those who actually conquered or build a kingdom. That is also the wildling view, by the way. If Jon isn't a conqueror and becomes a king he'll inherit it one way or another, either as Robb's heir or Dany's heir/consort or both.

Possibly. I don't think Jon wants the throne, or even Winterfell truly, and IF he inherits either one it will be because of that... he inherited it, as he did Longclaw, the ranging mission, the LC election, etc- others around him see the value in Jon and line things up for him. But at some point it seems he will start turning things down because there is a chance he is the "bittersweet" ending George talks about.

Dany is the one sweeping through with the power of dragons, as she follows prophecy and messages told to her, and she is good at that part. But so far she has left chaos in her wake. She arrives, does the Targ bow or burn thing, then leaves, and chaos ensues. She has not even ended slavery. She has just moved the source from homegrown to global.

I have no idea how George has planned to wrap up her Essos arc, but she has a ton- TON- of lose threads that need to be tied up in order for her to be successful. And chances are she just gives up there, takes her Dothraki hoard and fire breathing dragons, and then heads to Westeros. And not just that, but the priests of fire and R'hollor are following Dany, ready to worship her as a god, and that will cause a new religious war in Westeros on top of the current religious war in Westeros.

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If the throne is gone they will make a new one. Perhaps a better symbol of power? If that's not than the world will go back into a state of perpetual civil war. George hasn't created a world where people are able to peacefully coexist with each other.

A new chair could possibly be remade, but it won't be from the swords of a hundred (or whatever) men that had to give up their dignity. I do foresee the start to a downfall of feudalism in the books. That will take too long to see in the active series, but maybe in an epilogue that is set in the not too distant future.

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Uhuh, perhaps you should tell that to Free Northman Reborn. 

Feel free. Why did you tell me this?

And there is a difference between using a character for compare/contrast, and making a post that literally has nothing to do with the topic at hand, such as that other poster did without so much as using Dany's name in her post.

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17 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

It is.  But not for Daenerys.  She has the potential to become the greatest Targaryen of all time.  The liberation of 250 thousands slaves is a tall order for anyone.  Daenerys has done it.  Leading a weak khalasar consisting of the old and the infirm through an inhospitable desert is a tall order.  Daenerys has done it.  For a soft, young girl to survive the Dothraki is a tall order.  Daenerys has done it.  She won Drogo's love and respect.  Waking dragons from stone is impossible.  Daenerys has done it.  Just admit it.  Daenerys is awesome!  :D

 

Perhaps the greatest accomplishment by anyone since Aegon's day.

Proof of good leadership ability right there.

She is Azor Ahai

She's awesome.

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Still people bring up the argument that Dany will be "villain" to Westerosi "heroes". The fact that she will not be welcome makes her a villain yadda yadda. Maybe these will make themselves feel better. But who are these heroes for Daenerys? Aegon who is again invading with an army? Cersei? Stannis ? Daenerys will not have an open welcome. It's true. But did Robb had an open welcome with the smallfolk of Riverlands? In Westerlands? Is Stannis getting an open welcome anywhere? Did Tywin had? None had better reasons for bringing war and none had better welcome either. It's always going to be someone who will hate the warring rulers. Dany is going to be the same. Is being the same as them will make her a villain? Yeah if she literally ran through the seven kingdoms with her horde and setting fire everything on sight? Is that version of Dany are you all expecting? Even Roose and Ramsay use strategy. I can't understand why Martin would make the Others as calculative antagonists yet make the Dothraki as orcs who will destroy everything on sight? What's the point George? Everyone praises the nuances and realism in the story yet when it comes Dany's Armada she has no humans only one dimensional killing machines. What do they think of George? With an important Dothraki character returning and George actually having a Dothraki arc promised still people don't consider them more than a horde of destruction machines(no they are not humans). Also Dany too will get a touch of Dothraki when she invades because "Fire and Blood" and "Dragons plant no trees". Ruthless Dany means she will burn and run over cities and only dust remains. Maybe she will be implanted with Dothraki chip in Vaes Dothrak. Unsullied being non rapey, effective in formations in battlefields will not cross people's mind. Westerosi will only think of them as slaves though they are not. Westerosi will care shit about Dany freeing slaves in Essos but having former slaves in her army will bother them, the irony being the Unsullied are more free than they ever will be. Like Westerosi will have the same goggles as a Dany hater in an internet forum. It is understandable that they will have an issue with foreigners in her army but the Dany hate squad spins it to ridiculous proportions. Get ready to be disappointed if Dany does not bring anything positive to Westeros and her reception is not ambivalent. 

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2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

True, those are all impressive things. However doing something that not even the Valyrian Freehold accomplished would be far more difficult. The Valyrian Freehold had problems controlling Essos even with a huge amount of dragons/dragon riders and military outposts. They fought many wars to keep and expand their empire. Then you have Westeros and the problems she will face there with winter and everything else. Even as a dragon rider Dany is only one person and can only be one place at a time.

Having an empire like that is impossible but Dany could make allies in Essos and thus could bring food supplies and reinforcements from the free cities. I think she will install the widow of the waterfront as the leader of Volantis and the tattered prince as the leader of Pentos. They could help her with the conquest.

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OP, I don't read posts that long, even excellent like this one. But I read some of it and your summary.

I mostly agree. But I don't see why she would go to Asshai. And I believe she will face the Others. She is fire and must meet the Ice. The Red Priests will see to that.

And what will happen with the Others? Does everyone die? Or do the Other leave, when she leave. Because they came just to fight her?

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14 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Still people bring up the argument that Dany will be "villain" to Westerosi "heroes"....

Tyrion and the Five Kings have already laid waste to Westeros. I don't think Dany will want to follow their example by using her weapons of mass destruction - dragons and drothraki/unsullied.

I'm expecting a swift Dance of the Dragons, triggered by the theft of probably both Viserion and Rhaegal. Quite possibly, Dany will leave her army behind in Essos as she flies in pursuit.

And then Winter will be coming on strong.

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4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The author seems to setting Daenerys up as a conqueror and not a ruler. 

Who do you think he is setting up as a ruler? Because every rulership arc he had ended as failures. And each of them has some flaws that would make them not so good rulers. Dany isn't an exception but one among them.

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Just now, khal drogon said:

Who do you think he is setting up as a ruler? Because every rulership arc he had ended as failures. And each of them has some flaws that would make them not so good rulers. Dany isn't an exception but one among them.

I explained this in my earlier post to LordVarys.

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3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion and the Five Kings have already laid waste to Westeros. I don't think Dany will want to follow their example by using her weapons of mass destruction - dragons and drothraki/unsullied.

I'm expecting a swift Dance of the Dragons, triggered by the theft of probably both Viserion and Rhaegal. Quite possibly, Dany will leave her army behind in Essos as she flies in pursuit.

And then Winter will be coming on strong

War of the Five kings had numerous players and it stretched for nearly 3 years. The second Dance or Dany's conquest will not stretch that long. Second the Dothraki are not suitable for Siege warfare so the places they will be useful will be limited to open battlefields. Third there is no point in making Dothraki run-over Westeros in winter. The Dothraki will not be very excited about winter warfare. Fourth the Unsullied will hardly lay waste to anything. And last the Dragons are not going to be in the same team and they are not negative PR for Dany. Westerosi don't consider Dragons as WMD's in the same negative context as the post WW2 world. Aegon is a hero for them. Smallfolk even consider Mad Aerys as good king. Even people like Jon and Stannis don't think of dragons in a negative context. 

Yeah I agree with you in that the second Dance will be very swift and there will be no time for a conflict that would rival WOT5K. It is more possible that Dany will arrive so late that she has to choose between taking the throne and going North.

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48 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Yeah I agree with you in that the second Dance will be very swift and there will be no time for a conflict that would rival WOT5K. It is more possible that Dany will arrive so late that she has to choose between taking the throne and going North.

Yes and we know what choice she will make.

“and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer.The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother’s son in his hour of peril.”

Tyrion is of course talking to Aegon but I am pretty sure this is George being clever as we all know she has another nephew who will soon be in an "hour of peril"

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5 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Uhuh, perhaps you should tell that to Free Northman Reborn. 

Yeah, he brought up the guy. I stuck exclusively to Daenerys in my first post here, actually trying to deal with some aspects of the OP.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Are you asking me? Because if you are, then this is something I did not say because it came from the OP. I agreed to it because I do think it will be her undoing because she is following both prophecy (getting her "cock" bitten off) and what she feels is her "right", even though she has never set foot in Westeros, does not understand its politics, and cannot even so much as line up which house goes to which banner. I think her eyes are larger than her stomach.

You are aware that Daenerys Targaryen does neither know nor care all that much about about prophecies, right? She received some prophecies that all explicitly addressed her, personally. But she isn't going to bring them about or actively seeks them out. In fact, she more or less stumbles through her own life, more often than not overlooking things in the prophecy. She got the Pale Mare and the Sun's Son, and she still recalls some of the stuff from the House of the Undying, most notably the stuff about the three treasons (that's what I would not forget, either).

And, no, she doesn't care all that much about her right. She knows she will have to take Westeros by force, that's why she went to Astapor in the first place. But we don't at this point not know how she will pursue her right when she finally gets to Westeros. As it seems it won't be the evil foreign Targaryen elitist trying to subdue the poor Westerosi who got along pretty well without the dragon pricks. It is going to be another Targaryen civil war, the Second Dance. We'll have Dany fighting Aegon, and if the boy turns out to be some Blackfyre descendants all those Westerosi declaring for him and doing him homage as their king should actually join Dany because she is the real deal. He would be a fake.

And compared to Dany Jon hasn't all that much experience with Westeros, either. All he knows is Winterfell, the Wall, and the lands beyond the Wall. If Dany would suck as queen so would he as king.

But this whole question is not all that relevant. Aegon the Conqueror also didn't know any lord in Westeros personally when he conquered it. It still worked out. And Daenerys has the advantage to be bear his family name.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And yet in the current story we have two, three if you count Bran which I do but for the sake of this discussion I will stick to Jon and Daenerys, people with an arc moving to either conquering or ruling. One yearns for the throne, one has never had a real thought about it because he is not seeking it out.

Dany and Jon have a lot in common as youthful leaders and favorites of the author, getting a lot of implausible deus ex machina support. But Jon doesn't really get any treatment that prepares him to sit a throne - Tyrion, Sansa, Arianne get that. And perhaps to a smaller degree even characters like Asha and Davos. Jon learns how to fight and to lead in a military context. He is neither enjoying nor excelling at politics, neither with his own men nor with the outside world. He made something of the chances that fell into his lap - when a banker shows up, he makes a deal with him, when Alys Karstark asks for his help, he makes something of that.

His only real accomplishment - however problematic it turned out to be - is the pact with the wildlings. But a more competent person - like, say, Tyrion - could have forced the entire Watch to go along with that and make them think it was their idea. Jon obviously couldn't do that.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

At the end of ADWD, Dany has become a Dothraki, she eats the fire and blood of the horse, as the Dothraki do. The Dothraki do not rule, they rape, pillage, steal gods, and lay waste to the land they touch.

This is what the Dothraki do when they come to a new town/land:

"And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing." His voice rose, and he lifted his fist to the sky. "I will take my khalasar west to where the world ends, and ride the wooden horses across the black salt water as no khal has done before. I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children as slaves, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains. This I vow, I, Drogo son of Bharbo. This I swear before the Mother of Mountains, as the stars look down in witness."

Dany isn't a Dothraki. She is a dragon, feeding on the horse as Drogon does. Last time she sort of adopted Dothraki culture. Seeing the world with their eyes made her realize that the world is much larger than Viserys made her believe. But she never became one of them. And she most certainly won't know. She will break the Dothraki, use their culture and prophecies against them, using them for her own ends. She might very well destroy them as a culture. There is no chance that she is going to allow them to rape, pillage, and enslave. She most likely isn't even going to allow them to keep the slaves they have.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Possibly. I don't think Jon wants the throne, or even Winterfell truly, and IF he inherits either one it will be because of that... he inherited it, as he did Longclaw, the ranging mission, the LC election, etc- others around him see the value in Jon and line things up for him. But at some point it seems he will start turning things down because there is a chance he is the "bittersweet" ending George talks about.

I doubt that will have to do anything with people turning down things - just as I don't think anybody will ever 'plot' or 'scheme' to make Jon king (nobody hates him that much) - that will have to do with people actually dying. People will lose the ones they love, realize that their family aren't exactly the same people they once knew (hello there, Bran, Arya, and Sansa), etc. It is not going to be something as, well, comfortable as somebody being forced to be king against his will. That wouldn't be 'bittersweet'. It would be perfect happy ending. The sweet-part is going to be that they defeated the Others. And the bitter-part will basically be everything else.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Dany is the one sweeping through with the power of dragons, as she follows prophecy and messages told to her, and she is good at that part. But so far she has left chaos in her wake. She arrives, does the Targ bow or burn thing, then leaves, and chaos ensues. She has not even ended slavery. She has just moved the source from homegrown to global.

She will end slavery. And she has only created chaos in Slaver's Bay. Qarth still stands. And Drogo got himself killed. The slaver cities will all be destroyed, of course, but that will be a clean job. They are set up by George to be put down. Just as George gave Walder Frey so many descendants to make the man see them all die.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have no idea how George has planned to wrap up her Essos arc, but she has a ton- TON- of lose threads that need to be tied up in order for her to be successful. And chances are she just gives up there, takes her Dothraki hoard and fire breathing dragons, and then heads to Westeros. And not just that, but the priests of fire and R'hollor are following Dany, ready to worship her as a god, and that will cause a new religious war in Westeros on top of the current religious war in Westeros.

Once she has all the Dothraki the threads in Essos will resolve themselves. You are aware that millions of Dothraki under single ruler - Daenerys - should be able to conquer pretty much all the lands west of the Bones. We don't have to see this. Dany could dispatch khalasars to the far ends of the world without actually overseeing them all the time. She is a dragonrider now, she can get from A to B pretty quickly. 

I think she might take them to destroy Qarth personally, but we won't see her destroy most of the Free Cities aside from Volantis and, perhaps, Pentos.

But, yeah, the story George is writing is far from over. That's pretty clear. And Dany can't get quickly to Westeros. Aegon first has to get some semblance of power.

But winter and the continuous warfare in Westeros will severely cripple the ability of Dany's enemies in Westeros to oppose her upon her final arrival. Some people will do, but once their figureheads - Aegon, Euron, Stannis, the High Septon whoever - are dealt with will there won't be much of a fight. They won't have the resources or the food to do mount much resistance. And most of the clever people will see Dany's arrival - especially the dragons - as a very welcome help against he Others. By the time of her arrival some people will have learned what's going on up in at the Wall (assuming it still stands).

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A new chair could possibly be remade, but it won't be from the swords of a hundred (or whatever) men that had to give up their dignity. I do foresee the start to a downfall of feudalism in the books. That will take too long to see in the active series, but maybe in an epilogue that is set in the not too distant future.

What do you see feudalism replaced with? I could see our guys becoming despotic/absolutist quasi-divine rulers - Jon thanks to cheating death, Dany thanks to her dragons, Bran due to him becoming a magical tree-man with very strong powers, etc. - but I don't see any potential for societal change. They are not going to introduce a democracy nor can they ask everybody for their input or opinion in the fight for survival against the Others. It should be rather easy for a person with the power of Daenerys to take power away from the lords on a very big scale. But aside from that we should see little change in the overall society.

There might be hints for reforms at the end, possibly something along the lines of a rediscovery/reintroduction of the reforms of Aegon V, but this series is about societal changes. George is invested in the elite and the ruling class, and there are no hints that he is going to change that.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are aware that Daenerys Targaryen does neither know nor care all that much about about prophecies, right? She received some prophecies that all explicitly addressed her, personally. But she isn't going to bring them about or actively seeks them out. In fact, she more or less stumbles through her own life, more often than not overlooking things in the prophecy. She got the Pale Mare and the Sun's Son, and she still recalls some of the stuff from the House of the Undying, most notably the stuff about the three treasons (that's what I would not forget, either).

I have only a second because I am elbows deep in work, but Quaithe, House of Undying, Mirri Maz... she takes it all to heart and thinks about hear things throughout the series, including her last chapter. 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And, no, she doesn't care all that much about her right

She does. She says as much. 

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And compared to Dany Jon hasn't all that much experience with Westeros, either. All he knows is Winterfell, the Wall, and the lands beyond the Wall. If Dany would suck as queen so would he as king.

Jon knows the houses, the regions, the family names and words, even the mountain clans and how to deal with them, he does knownthe land beyond the wall now, but Dany does not know any of this and less. 

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany isn't a Dothraki. She is a dragon, feeding on the horse as Drogon does. Last time she sort of adopted Dothraki culture. Seeing the world with their eyes made her realize that the world is much larger than Viserys made her believe. But she never became one of them

She has symbolically if not also in her heart that she will carry with her forever now. 

And I highly doubt millions (whatever the number you said was) of Dothraki will follow her to Westeros. They are afraid of the sea and she doesn't have enough ships for them and horses and food for all of them without wiping the coasts of Essos bare, and that is not good either  

 

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33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have only a second because I am elbows deep in work, but Quaithe, House of Undying, Mirri Maz... she takes it all to heart and thinks about hear things throughout the series, including her last chapter. 

In her last chapter she is alone and visions/hallucinations of Viserys and Jorah show up and talk about things. She very seldom thinks about what the Undying told her, and if she does only on a very superficial level. She does not want to bring things about or tries to fulfill a prophecy. That's the kind of madness Rhaegar was obsessed with.

And all the visions and prophecies she got are so opaque you can't use them as guidelines for anything, really. 

33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

She does. She says as much. 

Yeah, more or less the same as every noble/royal person thinks she or he has a claim to the castle or throne their father sat on. But Dany is not Stannis. She is not obsessed with demanding getting her right as her father's/brother's heir.

33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon knows the houses, the regions, the family names and words, even the mountain clans and how to deal with them, he does knownthe land beyond the wall now, but Dany does not know any of this and less. 

So you think Jon knows the names and sigils of all the noble houses from Dorne to the Wall? He may know most of the houses in the North but I'd be very surprised if he knew any less prominent houses/sigils in the Riverlands, Vale, West, Stormlands, or Reach. Not to mention Dorne. Pod has to learn to Dornish houses specifically before they meet the Dornish entourage in ASoS. And Robb talks about the Westerlings in ASoS as if they are not exactly all that well-known in the Riverlands/North these days.

33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

She has symbolically if not also in her heart that she will carry with her forever now. 

How do you know? That's just something you want to believe. 

33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And I highly doubt millions (whatever the number you said was) of Dothraki will follow her to Westeros. They are afraid of the sea and she doesn't have enough ships for them and horses and food for all of them without wiping the coasts of Essos bare, and that is not good either  

She will make them to do what she wants. There are certain hints that the Dothraki want to worship the dragons. They did this historically - with the whole Dragon of the North thing -, Drogo's marriage to Daenerys is another hint, and Dany becoming the living goddess of the remaining Dothraki in AGoT is the best hint. Jhaqo and the others she is going to meet at Vaes Dothrak will follow in their footsteps. And if the dosh khaleen declares her the Stallion that Mounts the World she will have them all, hearts and minds.

She has the potential to get a vast armada - the ships from Qarth to the entire Slaver's Bay regions - not only Astapor, Meereen, and Yunkai but also Mantarys, Tolos, New Ghis, etc. - could also be hers. Then there will be the Volantene ships, the Pentoshi ships, and the ships of the the Three Daughters. That will be a lot. And she can send her Dothraki in khalasars all to the coast of the Narrow Sea. She doesn't have to take them to Westeros by ship starting the journey at Slaver's Bay. And she sure as hell could use the same ships to get them across the Narrow Sea piece by piece. All she needs to do that is secure a landing zone. And that shouldn't be that difficult.

Should she suffer a crushing defeat in one battle, losing an entire khasalar, she could have two in its place shipped in a matter of weeks.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany isn't a Dothraki. She is a dragon, feeding on the horse as Drogon does. Last time she sort of adopted Dothraki culture. Seeing the world with their eyes made her realize that the world is much larger than Viserys made her believe. But she never became one of them. And she most certainly won't know. She will break the Dothraki, use their culture and prophecies against them, using them for her own ends. She might very well destroy them as a culture. There is no chance that she is going to allow them to rape, pillage, and enslave. She most likely isn't even going to allow them to keep the slaves they have.

How the hell will she do it? She's having a lot of trouble into convincing the ghiscari to obey her,  how would she convince a bunch of savages to do it?

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1 minute ago, The Hoare said:

How the hell will she do it? She's having a lot of trouble into convincing the ghiscari to obey her,  how would she convince a bunch of savages to do it?

I think I laid it out a little bit above:

1. There are hints they want to worship dragons and be close to them (Dragon of the North, Drogo's marriage to Dany, worship of the Mother of Dragons).

2. Daenerys is a dragonrider now.

3. There is the prophecy of the Stallion that Mounts the World.

In combination with the vision from the House of the Undying that depicts this

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Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

we can be reasonably sure that Daenerys will bend the dosh khaleen to her will. And their are hints that while Dothraki culture in the khalasars is very patriarchal the culture and religion of the Dothraki as a whole is controlled by the dosh khaleen. It is in the hands of the wise women, basically. We were introduced to their power very early on in AGoT when it is made clear that Drogo actually has to go to Vaes Dothrak to get the blessing of the dosh khaleen for his marriage and unborn child.

This matriarchal element of the Dothraki obviously was stronger in the past. It was the witch-queen Doshi and her son Mengo, the first great khal, who united the Dothraki first during the Century of Blood. During the time of they were united women may have played a much larger role in the society.

Be that as it may, the dosh khaleen most likely will proclaim Daenerys the Stallion that Mounts the World, making her the god-queen of the entire people. How it will work in detail I don't know.

And we should also keep in mind that we might actually be mistaken about Khal Jhaqo's intentions/mission at the end of ADwD. The obvious answer to his presence near Slaver's Bay is that he is there on the invitation of the Yunkai'i to put down Daenerys (there is talk that they also sent envoys into the Dothraki Sea). But what if the news about the dragons have traveled to Vaes Dothrak just as it has by now reached Westeros? What if the Vaes Dothrak see them as a divine sign that Dany is the Stallion and have sent Jhaqo to Meereen to gather knowledge and bring her back, if possible, not to drag her back in shame, but to submit to her and declare her the Stallion (or at least to test whether it is true that she is that figure or not)?

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

In her last chapter she is alone and visions/hallucinations of Viserys and Jorah show up and talk about things. She very seldom thinks about what the Undying told her, and if she does only on a very superficial level. She does not want to bring things about or tries to fulfill a prophecy. That's the kind of madness Rhaegar was obsessed with.

That she thinks about them on any level means she is thinking about them. Those thoughts and images are in her stream of consciousness.

And what does it matter if this is what Rhaegar was obsessed with? If those thoughts of prophecy are happening more frequently in Targaryens, then maybe that means the prophecy is about to happen? Look at how many of the zealot R'hollorist priest are popping up out of the woodwork all while this is happening. Dany is a Targagryen, afterall. According to George, she has accepted the words fire and blood by the end of ADWD.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And all the visions and prophecies she got are so opaque you can't use them as guidelines for anything, really. 

This is a silly statement, Lord Varys. The words in the book all mean something. The visions and words from Qarth, Quaithe, and MMD all mean something to the story. They aren't fluff.

That is why she tries to decode them so often. She tries to understand what they are "guidelines" for.

  • "A sun in splendor, transfixed by a spear."
    The sun's son. A shiver went through her. "Shadows and whispers." What else had Quaithe said? The pale mare and the sun's son. There was a lion in it too, and a dragon. Or am I the dragon? "Beware the perfumed seneschal." That she remembered. "Dreams and prophecies. Why must they always be in riddles? I hate this. Oh, leave me, ser. Tomorrow is my wedding day."
  • The pale mare. Daenerys sighed. Quaithe warned me of the pale mare's coming. She told me of the Dornish prince as well, the sun's son. She told me much and more, but all in riddles. "I cannot rely on plague to save me from my enemies. Set Pretty Meris free. At once."
     
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, more or less the same as every noble/royal person thinks she or he has a claim to the castle or throne their father sat on. But Dany is not Stannis. She is not obsessed with demanding getting her right as her father's/brother's heir.

This isn't the only time she says something like this, just the one I found quickly.

  • "The only palace I desire is the red castle at King's Landing, my lord Pyat." Dany was wary of the warlock; the maegi Mirri Maz Duur had soured her on those who played at sorcery. "And if the great of Qarth would give me gifts, Xaro, let them give me ships and swords to win back what is rightfully mine."
  • "Yet I must have some army," Dany said. "The boy Joffrey will not give me the Iron Throne for asking politely."

And Dany seems to realize her father lost the throne. She mentions something similar to this in an other instance, but I can't think of the exact wording at the moment:

  • Some of her sellswords smelled as if they had not washed or changed their clothes since her father lost the Iron Throne,
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think Jon knows the names and sigils of all the noble houses from Dorne to the Wall? He may know most of the houses in the North but I'd be very surprised if he knew any less prominent houses/sigils in the Riverlands, Vale, West, Stormlands, or Reach. Not to mention Dorne. Pod has to learn to Dornish houses specifically before they meet the Dornish entourage in ASoS. And Robb talks about the Westerlings in ASoS as if they are not exactly all that well-known in the Riverlands/North these days.

Jon was taught the ways of Westeros like every other noble child in the country. He has much more knowledge of the culture, laws, methods, houses, sigils, etc than Daenerys does. Dany doesn't even sound Westerosi with her Tyroshi accent. Not that the accent is a big issue, but when added to everything else, it makes her more of a stranger, except to those scattered houses that may support a Targ who doesn't burn them.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know? That's just something you want to believe. 

Puh-leeeez! I just gave you text. Apparently you are back to childish nursery school debate with me again. Thanks.

Daenerys is headed back to the Dothraki, according to George, for most of TWOW. She eats like them, has her bloodriders, has their myths and prophecies on her mind, bestowed her marriage gifts to them, wants her Dothraki husband back, etc, etc. Sorry that you can't see that.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

She will make them to do what she wants. There are certain hints that the Dothraki want to worship the dragons. They did this historically - with the whole Dragon of the North thing -, Drogo's marriage to Daenerys is another hint, and Dany becoming the living goddess of the remaining Dothraki in AGoT is the best hint. Jhaqo and the others she is going to meet at Vaes Dothrak will follow in their footsteps. And if the dosh khaleen declares her the Stallion that Mounts the World she will have them all, hearts and minds.

I don't doubt idol worship will happen on some level. I think this is part of her slide into fire and blood. Also, if you remember, the unsullied also worship a warrior woman goddess. And you think this means something good in the story? Ok :dunno:

By the way, this is the third, if not fourth George story where he has used this same exact archetype of idol worship gone afoul. Same broad strokes, most of the same small strokes, the same "lightbringer", the same child/less issues, the same culture issues, the same sigil use, blood betrayal... and it is never a good thing in the end. There is a reason why George has set this Dany arc up as a third issue in the series, after the main issue of the Others.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

She has the potential to get a vast armada - the ships from Qarth to the entire Slaver's Bay regions - not only Astapor, Meereen, and Yunkai but also Mantarys, Tolos, New Ghis, etc. - could also be hers. Then there will be the Volantene ships, the Pentoshi ships, and the ships of the the Three Daughters. That will be a lot. And she can send her Dothraki in khalasars all to the coast of the Narrow Sea. She doesn't have to take them to Westeros by ship starting the journey at Slaver's Bay. And she sure as hell could use the same ships to get them across the Narrow Sea piece by piece. All she needs to do that is secure a landing zone. And that shouldn't be that difficult.

Wow. That is a lot of wishful thinking.

Sure, she may get some of this, she does have to make to Westeros, afterall. And what is the purpose of bringing this many Dothraki to Westeros if not to invade and fight? And how is depelting the resources of the Essosi coastline in anyway a good thing to do? That would be her stepping on those "under" her for her own self righteous purpose IF she did that.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Should she suffer a crushing defeat in one battle, losing an entire khasalar, she could have two in its place shipped in a matter of weeks.

This means all of the fighting against her is taking place on one coast with the sea at their backs and the opponent blocking off the land in front of them. How is she going to get anywhere? This doesn't sound right, at all.

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Dany isn't a Dothraki. She is a dragon, feeding on the horse as Drogon does.

She is now also a Dothraki, as she shows by her consuming the horse as the Dothraki do, amongst the other things listed already. All of the main characters are something in addition to their sigil.

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Last time she sort of adopted Dothraki culture. Seeing the world with their eyes made her realize that the world is much larger than Viserys made her believe. But she never became one of them. And she most certainly won't know. She will break the Dothraki, use their culture and prophecies against them, using them for her own ends. She might very well destroy them as a culture. There is no chance that she is going to allow them to rape, pillage, and enslave. She most likely isn't even going to allow them to keep the slaves they have.

Whoah, whoah, whoah!!!!  I give you text that includes Dany's words to her feelings and then you give this paragraph of pure wishful thinking fan fiction without any proof and we are supposed to just accept this is truth? That is quite hypocritical.

Last time she began her Dothraki culture infusion, and now she is going back there, and now according to you it is to destroy their culture.

And now Dany is not just a "breaker of chains" but a breaker of culture??? Wow. Just wow.

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