Daenerys Demurred

[dregs4NED]

On 8/5/2017 at 10:52 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Tywin hired the Brave Companions, which is made up of a mish-mash of unsavory chaps from every continent. They later work for Roose. I can't remember if there are any other mentions, but Stannis uses pirates at the Blackwater and wants to hire Essosi mercenaries in ADWD. I can't imagine they're that alienating, or nobody in Westeros would use them. Though, Stannis' situation is pretty desperate.

Ah, thank you! I somehow overlooked these two, the Brave Companions and Salladhor Saan.

I tried looking for some references on how some Westerosi would view foreign mercenaries and pirates, to give precedent towards some xenophobia, but surprisingly I could not find anything to back up my argument, nor anything to work against my argument. Anything against the Brave Companions were about their own unpleasantness and nothing that extends to mercenaries in general. Same with hired mercenaries on Stannis' part.

Nevertheless, what I will posit is that hiring mercenaries is a sign that one cannot allure loyalty from local allies (whether or not this is the actual case, it is establishing a precedent), as Stannis' struggle would infer to. Also, I cannot discount the language and cultural barriers as something negligible and inconsequential. Overcoming these obstacles will take some effort. 

On 8/5/2017 at 10:52 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Eh, people are fickle. Some smallfolk were still chanting for Aerys and lamenting his loss in one of Arya's chapters. Point is, Targ blood still holds power in Westeros. Dany won't be invading, she'll be reclaiming.

I'm still convinced that Westeros will view Daenerys' conquest as the invasion of a foreign army -- Jorah has foreshadowed this multiple times -- and that the fact that she is reclaiming for the Targaryen dynasty will be conflated into her foreign host rather than being pronounced on its own, especially since she is starting from zero on accruing local support to help transition her conquest into reclamation. 

Her Targaryen roots can both help and harm her. I agree that some smallfolk still hold Aerys close to their hearts (as I referenced such near the end of my OP), but there may be easily more who believe otherwise. Daenerys will be bringing more destruction than salvation to the shores of Westeros when she arrives (namely via dragonfire), which may mirror her father's propensity for fiery resolutions. 

The ways that her Targaryen heritage may help her are likely going to be attributed towards (f)Aegon rather than herself, 

Spoiler

as is evident by Arianne Martell heading towards (f)Aegon in her sample chapters of tWoW.

 

On 8/5/2017 at 10:52 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Sure, if her men start misbehaving, it'll be her they'll blame. It's like how the smallfolk that Arya meet blame the Starks and Lannisters for all the raping and pillaging during the war. The disapproval would have to be strong and widespread for it to be a problem, though. Hence why I originally said the sparrow movement might cause trouble for her, not xenophobia.

Xenophobia will only lay the groundwork in mistrust prior to diplomacy and/or attempts in gaining allies. It's an obstacle to overcome, not a definite taint to Dany's reputation. It's a disadvantage; a poor starting point in terms of relations. I'm not trying to elevate the potential xenophobia beyond this.

But all it takes is someone to send all their ravens out with a message containing their frightened view of their view of Daenerys. If they write down hyperbolic descriptions, then that will be Westeros' first impression of Dany's army.

There's no reason why  the sparrow movement and xenophobia will be both problematic for Daenerys. They might even compound on each other.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, dregs4NED said:

Ah, thank you! I somehow overlooked these two, the Brave Companions and Salladhor Saan.

I tried looking for some references on how some Westerosi would view foreign mercenaries and pirates, to give precedent towards some xenophobia, but surprisingly I could not find anything to back up my argument, nor anything to work against my argument. Anything against the Brave Companions were about their own unpleasantness and nothing that extends to mercenaries in general. Same with hired mercenaries on Stannis' part.

Nevertheless, what I will posit is that hiring mercenaries is a sign that one cannot allure loyalty from local allies (whether or not this is the actual case, it is establishing a precedent), as Stannis' struggle would infer to. Also, I cannot discount the language and cultural barriers as something negligible and inconsequential. Overcoming these obstacles will take some effort. 

IMO the reputation of the sellswords is far more likely to impact PR than where they're from. The Brave Companions are known to be excessively cruel, so what does that say about the person who will hire them? I don't think that would necessarily make or break a lord, though. The most important thing during the war is the size and skill of your army. PR stuff plays a bigger role after you have seized power and are trying to keep it.

1 hour ago, dregs4NED said:

I'm still convinced that Westeros will view Daenerys' conquest as the invasion of a foreign army -- Jorah has foreshadowed this multiple times -- and that the fact that she is reclaiming for the Targaryen dynasty will be conflated into her foreign host rather than being pronounced on its own, especially since she is starting from zero on accruing local support to help transition her conquest into reclamation. 

Her Targaryen roots can both help and harm her. I agree that some smallfolk still hold Aerys close to their hearts (as I referenced such near the end of my OP), but there may be easily more who believe otherwise. Daenerys will be bringing more destruction than salvation to the shores of Westeros when she arrives (namely via dragonfire), which may mirror her father's propensity for fiery resolutions. 

The ways that her Targaryen heritage may help her are likely going to be attributed towards (f)Aegon rather than herself, 

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as is evident by Arianne Martell heading towards (f)Aegon in her sample chapters of tWoW.

 

I don't think I have anything else to add to this topic other than what I've said. It just doesn't make sense to me that anybody would view Dany, or anybody with the name 'Targaryen', as a foreigner. The Targs have left too deep an imprint on Westeros for that to happen, and the current crown still derives his claim from his Targ ancestry.

I don't think fAegon will have smooth sailing in Westeros, either. He will certainly be able to gain support, if not just because Cersei is alienating all hers, but I think his legitimacy will remain a huge issue. We get a lot of hints of this at the end of the last book, with everyone questioning his identity. It's why Varys and Illyrio wanted him to marry Dany. Not all his forces will remain loyal to him if there's a chance he won't win the war.

2 hours ago, dregs4NED said:

Xenophobia will only lay the groundwork in mistrust prior to diplomacy and/or attempts in gaining allies. It's an obstacle to overcome, not a definite taint to Dany's reputation. It's a disadvantage; a poor starting point in terms of relations. I'm not trying to elevate the potential xenophobia beyond this.

But all it takes is someone to send all their ravens out with a message containing their frightened view of their view of Daenerys. If they write down hyperbolic descriptions, then that will be Westeros' first impression of Dany's army.

There's no reason why  the sparrow movement and xenophobia will be both problematic for Daenerys. They might even compound on each other.

If we're talking alliances, then it's the lords she's dealing with, and I think they'd be even less susceptible to xenophobia than the smallfolk. Perhaps if she were still married to Hizdar at that point (which I find extremely unlikely), it would be a problem, but otherwise it's how formidable her army is, how likely she will win, and what she can offer them, that will be on the forefront of their mind. If people have an exaggerated view of how scary her men are, that might even work in her favor. Not all kneel out of friendship after all. See: Aegon and his Field of Fire or Tywin's Rains of Castamere.