Football: Silly season

[Rorshach]

We still look pedestrian, but at least two of our summer signings did their stuff all right today.

Rooney returned with a goal, and looked better than he did in preseason.

For me, however, having played in goal myself, Jordan Pickford was the hero. Assured on the line, aggressive and commanding in the area, he was great. Hope he continues in this vein.

[polishgenius]

29 minutes ago, l2 0 5 5 said:

Yeah I didn't see it either so I can't comment on it other than generally speaking about refs and how butt hurt they get about shit like that. 

It certainly happens that refs get a bit power trippy, but equally to do their job properly they need respect and the culture for it just isn't there in football.
We need some Nigel Owens to come in and sort shit out.

[Consigliere]

Not going to say that it will be a City procession but their squad looks pretty damn amazing.

 

Re: United. We have made some good signings but after watching a few preseason games, I remain unconvinced that we have solved our goal scoring problems. Even if Lukaku matches (or betters) his goal return from last season, that isn't going to make a huge difference unless the likes of Rashford, Martial, Mkhi, Pogba and Mata contribute alot more in the goals column. Haven't seen anything in preseason to suggest that they will though. Hopefully two or three of them can get into double figures for league goals.

Zlatan could be back for us around December/January. Mourinho has confirmed that the club are in talks with him over a 6 month contract.

[Raja]

11 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Not going to say that it will be a City procession but their squad looks pretty damn amazing

Yeah - I was a bit taken aback to see Sane, Sterling and Bernado Silva on the bench. That is one strong squad 

Also, Fabregas cards looked right to me. 2nd yellow was a horrible tackle and the first yellow was obvious dissent ( if sarcastic clapping can be counted as such) 

[Consigliere]

Don't forget Mendy and Gundogan who were out through injury.

[The Winged Shadow]

7 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Firmino starts over Sturridge even if Danny is 100%. Klopp loves him.

His passing definitely needs to get better, I agree with Soylent that he misplaces too many and he didn't contribute much in the first half cause the midfield was invisible (Hendo and Gini were invisible all fucking game, at least Emre showed some life in the 2nd half) but overall I thought he was fine, at least 5/6 Liverpool players were well worse than him. 

Liverpool in the first half was trying too hard to go for that perfect pass behind the opposition defence. Instead of building up as they usually do through the wings, they tried to pass behind opposition defense to Salah or Mane, and kept losing the ball because the passes weren't good enough. Which is why i think Gini and Can weren't all that noticeable in midfield (Gini most of all) because they were completely bypassed for a lot of the first half.

Nonetheless, some god awful passing all around from Liverpool all game. Firmino's first touch and passing switches from excellent to rubbish in a matter of seconds, which is extremely annoying. He really needs to find some consistency. Hendo's passing was pretty awful all game too.

I don't understand all this infatuation with (post-suarez) Daniel Sturridge tbh. While he has more consistent finishing and first touch, he is worse than Firmino in bringing in wingers and midfielders into the play, and is a total passenger during the defensive phases (compared to Firmino). Not to mention crap work rate and fitness. Sturridge plays average most of the game, has a moment of brilliance, scores and then gets injured . It's been his cycle the last two years. Pool fans tend to daydream about his glory days with suarez and forget all the average-ness since. Did everyone forget how average he looked last year when he played? How average Liverpool looks when he plays, partly because of his crappy link up play and being average at winning the ball? Klopp picks Firmino because the team plays better with him as the CF.

However Sturridge looked pretty decent this preseason and I hope he can show his improvements against Hoffenheim. We really do need him back as an option, because otherwise we get to see Origi......

[The Winged Shadow]

3 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

Whether he's playing well or not, the difference is that Sturridge actually looks to get through on goal a lot more. Firmino spends too much time arsing about and we pose less of a threat through the middle with him in the team. Basically everything ends up going down the wings.

Looking to go through on goal is pointless unless you actually score more goals that way. Which the current Liverpool doesn't. They simply don't have the quality in midfield to go through the centre. No Suarez to occupy/wriggle through defenders, no Coutinho (in the middle) to dribble/thread the pass, no one of Gerrard/Xabi's quality to make that long pass behind the line. Hendo, Can, Gini are all very hit and miss with those long passes, they get it wrong more often than not. Lallana could potentially do this, but probably not in the 4-3-3 system.

Firmino's arising about is where we disagree the most. To me it's not a weakness of the system, it's a feature. His arising about is crucial to Liverpool's build up, as him dropping off provides the extra man in the midfield to get things moving forward when everyone is marked. His arising about unlocks spaces for other team members. He runs the channels and drags CBs away and makes room for diagonal runs from wingers to the centre and deep runs from midfield to the centre. It's what allows Lallana, Gini, Mane, Coutinho to score more goals. Considering wings are where Liverpool's most dangerous players are (in the current 4-3-3 system anyway), I don't look at the wing play as a negative (which you seem to?).

Quote

People constantly make excuses for Firmino, and you rarely seem him being criticised by Liverpool fans- he had a pass completion percentage of around 60% in that match, but tons of fans are still saying he was amazing, and didn't he work hard!

He was fucking shit though. And if all we're concerned about is how many tackles he makes per game, why don't we just play Klavan up front? How many games against weak teams do we have to look relatively toothless for long periods, I wonder, before people realise he's a part of the problem?

I agree with you that he was pretty shit that last game. No where near amazing. Can't speak for other boards/corner of internet, but in this board he cops a lot of shit (and not only from you! :p). Most of it is generally warranted considering how good and bad he can be in a single match. I'm not here to defend his shittiness. Just what I consider to be a misguided idea that Sturridge is somehow a better option than him in this current system.

As I've tried to explain above (based on how i see things), it's not simply about his tackles/defensive duties. It's the role he has in the current system's buildup and his ability to (more often than not) bring other players into the game. If Klavan can do it better, I'd be all for it

Now, that is not to say Sturridge can't fulfill the same role effectively. I am confident that he can (except for the tackles/winning balls part maybe). It's just that so far he hasn't shown it (partly because he missed so many games). So far when he played, Liverpool have looked worse going forward than when Firmino played. Let's not forget he played as CF last season against deep lying team and didn't exactly blow them away. Deep defending team will always cause problems to Liverpool, and it's not just because of the forwards. It's because Pool's midfielders aren't good enough and can't make the killer pass (as oppose City's KDB and Silva, Chelsea's Fabregas etc). Liverpool gets plenty of bodies in and around the box against deep defending team (part of the reason why they get countered so much!), but no one can supply that final pass enough times during the course of a game.

Your main problem seems to be more about the role of the CF in the current system (at least how i perceive the CF role to be). I would personally prefer a 4-2-3-1 system against deep defending team with Sturridge/Origi/Solanke up front with one of Lallana/Coutinho/Firmino behind, or maybe even a 4-1-2-1-2. Both of which will suit Sturridge more in the CF role (based on how historically Liverpool played those system). But for whatver reason Klopp doesn't seem to like changing his system, even to his favored 4-2-3-1.

 

[Mme Erzulie]

On 8/11/2017 at 7:08 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

I'm not sure but whatever it will be will not be as bad as 'Luis Suarez to Rickie Lambert'...

Touché

On 8/11/2017 at 8:15 PM, Horse of Kent said:

Such a waste having Kolasinac at centre back. He looks very restless at not being able to get forward much. Also, I wish the commentators could pronounce his name correctly.

What is the correct pronunciation? And stress? Always good to get these things right.

21 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Mignolet has needed replacing for so fucking long. 

Amen. While none of the goals yesterday were explicit blunders on his part, a top class goal keeper might have kept one out. And he keeps inspiring precisely zero confidence in his defence with his appalling box control and handling. He seems to be a bit better with his feet now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he proves me wrong there shortly.

18 hours ago, baxus said:

Klopp seems to be sticking with his "we'll score one more than the opposition" philosophy which simply does not work in modern football.

I keep telling him it needs to be "two more than the opposition".

The front three were the only ones who get a passing grade for that match. TAA and Moreno did alright as well. TAA was involved in Watford's second goal, but offers a lot more going forward than Clyne, and his set piece delivery was so good we actually looked threatening from corners. Big fan of his, think he'll improve massively this season.

Everyone else was below par. Doesn't make sense to call out individuals. The team as a whole just looked unprepared, half-assed and dysfunctional. Midfield improved for parts of the second half, but for most of the first half, we looked outmanned, outworked and outgunned. 

Annoying that we didn't put the game to bed with several close calls on 2-3. And it's becoming such a pattern that we concede "messy" goals, where the ball is pinballing in and around the penalty area and never cleared properly, inevitably resulting in an opposing player getting a head, chest or a toe poke to it. 

Salah and Mané are going to be very hard to handle for opposing defences this season, but we need to sort out the defending.

[baxus]

18 hours ago, Mexal said:

Eh, I wouldn't stress over it. Two of the three goals were on mistakes during set pieces and the third goal was Xhaka's fault (plus a perfect pass from Albright), not the back 4/5. I think we'll be ok in the long run. 

My issue is we still need a CM like Seri to pair with Xhaka. Elneny will not cut it.

Liverpool conceded two goals on corners and I sure am stressing over it.  

18 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

It would be awfully nice if we had a defender who could win a header every now and then!

Definitely. It's as if the whole back line is made of Glen Johnsons.

18 hours ago, l2 0 5 5 said:

However, I hear the first yellow was because he was mocking the ref by applauding? Those guys have god compexes. In every sport. Can't stand that shit.  

If there is a single sport where refs need to punish players disrespectful behavior, it's football. Football needs to take the cue from rugby and allow only captains to initiate any sort of communication with the refs. Hopefully, it happens soon and we see something resembling sportsmanlike conduct from football players.

[ljkeane]

17 minutes ago, Mmerek Hamšzulíe said:

TAA and Moreno did alright as well. TAA was involved in Watford's second goal, but offers a lot more going forward than Clyne, and his set piece delivery was so good we actually looked threatening from corners. Big fan of his, think he'll improve massively this season.

Alexander-Arnold wasn't massively culpable for the second goal, it'd be nice if his clearance hadn't deflected back in front of goal but it wasn't a shocking piece of defending. At least he got to the first ball. Moreno did ok but he was still lunging in at every opportunity, he's quick enough to often get away with it but he's not always going to. I'm not convinced he's turned himself into a good defender while he's been out of the team based on this evidence.

In fairness to the defence while the defending wasn't good of the three goals conceded I'd say the only the first one was really their fault. Nobody bothered tracking a runner from midfield for the second goal and Wijnaldum was the one at fault for the third. That's why overall I'm not particularly convinced getting Van Dijk, or whoever, is going to turn it around and suddenly give us a good defence. Ok, getting a better player wouldn't hurt but it's the system more than the personnel which is the problem for me.

[Mme Erzulie]

I agree that it wasn't a howler, but he was undeniably involved, and I seem to remember him getting skinned once or twice as well. But he's so young and has time to learn, and I think there's few better for nurturing young talent than Jurgen.

Hopefully we'll be better defensively against Hoffenheim.

[Consigliere]

Frank de Boer has a big job on his hands at Palace. They were rubbish yesterday and looked like relegation candidates, being completely outplayed at home by a newly promoted side. They do have a more than decent squad on paper though but de Boer really needs to sort out the defending.

[polishgenius]

33 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Frank de Boer has a big job on his hands at Palace. They were rubbish yesterday and looked like relegation candidates, being completely outplayed at home by a newly promoted side. They do have a more than decent squad on paper though but de Boer really needs to sort out the defending.

Yeah, although I do suspect Huddersfield will surprise a few teams early season with how composed their midfield is, judging by yesterday. Philip Billing looks really good, they really had control of the middle of the park.

[Mexal]

2 hours ago, baxus said:

Liverpool conceded two goals on corners and I sure am stressing over it.  

Yea, but Arsenal gave up the least amount of set piece goals last season. I tend to think it's an area that can be fixed by using our starting CBs.

[Consigliere]

Newcastle have acquitted themselves quite well so far. Spurs have not really troubled them defensively while Newcastle have created some promising attacking situations of their own. Really unfortunate to have lost both Dummett and Lejeune to injury. Probably a good time to play Spurs as well since they tend to be slow starters.

 

ETA. and a moment of sheer idiocy by Shelvey.

[ljkeane]

Nice one Shelvey. Muppet.

[polishgenius]

What the fuck was Shelvey thinking? He wasn't even angry!

[ljkeane]

Decent effort from Newcastle until Shelvey decided to commit harakiri. However I don't really see too much in the side that's going to get them the wins they need against lower half teams. You can see why Benitez is apparently frustrated.

[Jordan La Cabra]

15 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

What the fuck was Shelvey thinking? He wasn't even angry!

Right in front of the ref, too. Now Spurs have scored, it feels like game over.

 

 

Anyway, the Chelsea fan has finally resurfaced. How long does everyone give Conte before he is sacked/walks?

I have a feeling that if Roman doesn't open up his wallet and sign at least two players, Conte will leave by the end of the window. Yesterday was a shambles. The fact Boga started should prove to Abramovich Conte needs more men. 

Smaller squad this year than we had last year, yet we had no European football.

 

Oh, and Davies kills off the Geordies.

 

[ljkeane]

1 minute ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I have a feeling that if Roman doesn't open up his wallet and sign at least two players, Conte will leave by the end of the window. Yesterday was a shambles. The fact Boga started should prove to Abramovich Conte needs more men. 

I don't disagree that Chelsea could do with adding to their squad but I'm not sure Conte's entirely blameless. It's hard to say how much he had to do with the decisions to sell Matic and loan a load of players out but he was the one who informed Costa he was done as a Chelsea player by text. He could have started Morata yesterday instead of Boga as well.