blacken

Is Euron too good to be true?

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It's bothered me for a while that Euron has been set up as such a powerful character. So far we know that Euron has or had:

- got away with multiple kin slayings

- been a successful explorer

- had enough riches of some kind to buy a faceless man assassination

- claims to have been to Valyria

- had chests of riches to disperse at the kings moot

- has a ship crewed by people he has mutilated but there is no mutiny

- has a dragon binder horn 

- has Valyrian steel armour

- has captured powerful warlocks

- has successfully invaded the Shield Islands  (although presumably that won't last)

- has intelligence and good looks

- may have some kind of greensight or the potential for it

- had a dragon's egg (allegedly)

- has possibly achieved some kind of occult knowledge through his imbibing of shade of the evening and by consisting with warlocks from all around

- is apparently feared in ports all over Essos 

 

It just seems like too much for one man. I'm not saying that the character is written badly or implausibly, GRRM does quite a good job of explaining Euron's philosophy, just that when GRRM has worked at the downfall of our 'heroes' before as in the failure of Robb's war and the red wedding, he has had to subtly tip the odds in the favour of the Lannisters and their allies (Race for the Iron Throne is really good at highlighting this). Never before has there been a character who is consistently so successful. Can you imagine Jon or Dany or any POV character getting such an easy ride?

 

I'm aware this kind of set up usually means a rather large downfall for a character but I know a lot of the fandom think Euron will be successful in getting a dragon/marrying Dany/ending the world or whatever particular theory you adhere to. Am I alone in being bothered by the idea that Euron could get a dragon so easily, for example, given the travails Dany has so far experienced in her arc?

 

Is anyone else waiting for the other show to drop? Does anyone else not believe the hype? 

 

I have heard and read other people's opinions about Euron being a stage 2 villain, for example, something no-one has face before, in an escalation of enemies towards the white walkers. To me Euron just seems like a huge Mary Sue villain and I have too much faith in GRRM's writing to believe that he will succeed.

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He's had help, probably by Bloodraven as a youth, and as of late Shiera. He is her pawn.

There's a fitting end lied up for him. He's going to fail to get a heir on Dany and he's going to get greyscale. But he is going to get his dragon though his glory will be short lived, the storm god is going to banish him from the skies and drowned god is going to drag him down to the bottom of the sea, like a slug, the very opposite of flying. Then Dany will melt him into oblivion.

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Posted (edited)

its kinda like around Feast, GRRM was like, "oh shit, I forgot some characters"

then he blended them all into the current version of Euron, and his power and presence increases in each book.

he's just so random in the context of the story.

Edited by DigUpHerBones

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On 14.7.2017 at 10:46 AM, blacken said:

It's bothered me for a while that Euron has been set up as such a powerful character.

[snip]

I have heard and read other people's opinions about Euron being a stage 2 villain, for example, something no-one has face before, in an escalation of enemies towards the white walkers. To me Euron just seems like a huge Mary Sue villain and I have too much faith in GRRM's writing to believe that he will succeed.

I hear you.

I think your last paragraph is spot on though. Euron as a kind of (please pardon the expression) tier 2 level boss for Dany to overcome makes sense.

If he is supposed to be a halfways believable obstacle for Dany he has to be (or at least appear to be) very powerful. And GRRM had to set that up well before it comes to the confrontation between the two characters. So the story really demands we get all this background hype about him now.

And in answer to DigUpHerBones above: yeah, in a way the set-up for the confrontation would have been even more organic and believable if Euron had figured more prominently from book 1 and 2. But that would have had a practical drawback: it would have bloated the early books and the number of viewpoint characters for no immediately apparent reason.

Earlier has a certain charm but also the above drawback. There is no perfect solution. So I guess Martin is trying to ride a middle course here: giving us the details about Euron and setting his plan in motion early enough for the story to work but not so early as to unnecessarily detract from the earlier Ned's death and War of Five Kings storyline.

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The thing is, a "Mary sue" isn't a relevant concept when it comes to villains. Western literature draws on the archetype of the "hero's journey" and a protagonist that skips too many of the steps of that journey feels hollow. But Euron is a villain, and there's not the same structural expectation there. A villain that appears unstoppable is entirely appropriate.

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Posted (edited)

Euron is too trope laden a villain....psychopathic killer, check; eye patch pirate, check; child molester, check; has magic objects, check; has magical abilities, check; bigger badder sadism than ever seen before, check; has  Bond villain level ambition for world domination, check.

While I did like the last damphair chapter, Euron is just too cartoonish for my taste.  In a series that has mostly been about realistic people with realistic motivations for their actions, Euron The Bad Seed, who was always very, very bad.....seems like it doesn't fit.  So far there is no characterization there beyond your stock horror villian.  So, not too impressed so far.

Edited by Cas Stark

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On 7/14/2017 at 1:46 AM, blacken said:

It's bothered me for a while that Euron has been set up as such a powerful character. So far we know that Euron has or had:

- got away with multiple kin slayings

- been a successful explorer

 - had a dragon's egg to buy a faceless man assassination

- Has been to Valyria

- had chests of riches to disperse at the kings moot

- has a ship crewed by people he has mutilated but there is no mutiny

- has a dragon binder horn 

- has Valyrian steel armour

- has captured powerful warlocks

- has successfully invaded the Shield Islands  (although presumably that won't last)

- has intelligence and good look

- had a dragon's egg 

- has achieved some kind of occult knowledge through his imbibing of shade of the evening and torturing the warlocks held in his ship 

- is apparently feared in ports all over Essos 

 fixed this part 

On 7/14/2017 at 1:46 AM, blacken said:

It just seems like too much for one man. I'm not saying that the character is written badly or implausibly, GRRM does quite a good job of explaining Euron's philosophy, just that when GRRM has worked at the downfall of our 'heroes' before as in the failure of Robb's war and the red wedding, he has had to subtly tip the odds in the favour of the Lannisters and their allies (Race for the Iron Throne is really good at highlighting this). Never before has there been a character who is consistently so successful. Can you imagine Jon or Dany or any POV character getting such an easy ride?

Robb was that successful, at 15  

On 7/14/2017 at 1:46 AM, blacken said:

I'm aware this kind of set up usually means a rather large downfall for a character but I know a lot of the fandom think Euron will be successful in getting a dragon/marrying Dany/ending the world or whatever particular theory you adhere to. Am I alone in being bothered by the idea that Euron could get a dragon so easily, for example, given the travails Dany has so far experienced in her arc?

The fandom says a lot of things, namely Euron and Dar and Benjen are the same person and everything else so don't put too much weight on the rantings here. Euron is now thousands of miles away from Dany and his dragon binding horn.  

On 7/14/2017 at 1:46 AM, blacken said:

Is anyone else waiting for the other show to drop? Does anyone else not believe the hype? 

Have you read the Damphair chapter in winds? 

On 7/14/2017 at 1:46 AM, blacken said:

I have heard and read other people's opinions about Euron being a stage 2 villain, for example, something no-one has face before, in an escalation of enemies towards the white walkers. To me Euron just seems like a huge Mary Sue villain and I have too much faith in GRRM's writing to believe that he will succeed.

How can he be a mary sue? Euron actually does all the horrible things he claims, no bullshit. He has the Armor, the horn and the wealth to hire a faceless man. There is no reason to doubt he has sailed the smoking sea and set foot in the freehold. He is badass. 

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Posted (edited)

I agree that Euron's character is far too "fantastic" in GRRM's world of characters in Westeros.

But the main issue I see is that Euron kills GRRMs story writing, he is one of the main reasons the writing got out of hands and GRRM lost control over the story. Why I say that:

With Euron and the plot arch Victarion we have two important and chapter eating plot lines (and two new POVs) in addition to all others we have already. No one would have cared and the story would not have suffered if all we had ever heard of the ironborn was Theon and Asha and then just some letters appearing from Balon or so.

Edited by Greywater-Watch

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2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I agree that Euron's character is far too "fantastic" in GRRM's world of characters in Westeros.

But the main issue I see is that Euron kills GRRMs story writing, he is one of the main reasons the writing got out of hands and GRRM lost control over the story. Why I say that:

With Euron and the plot arch Victarion we have two important and chapter eating plot lines (and two new POVs) in addition to all others we have already. No one would have cared and the story would not have suffered if all we had ever heard of the ironborn was Theon and Asha and then just some letters appearing from Balon or so.

I agree its all gotten out of hand, but I don't think you can blame Euron.  We didn't need any Vic chapters either, although I enjoyed reading them, MUCH more than the Arriane chapters.  Euron just doesn't feel like he fits really, unless/until there is some more fuller back story of how he came to be the joker of Westeros he feels a tad bit too crazy, too evil, he's Evil with a "E", not the much more standard human evil that we've so far seen, he's Crazy Evil, it just seems like this is going to throw the story way off as he takes a more central role.  It was a weird decision on the author's part.  Again I ddi enjoy the last Damphair chapter, but Euron still is Just So Evil, isn't that pure evil going to get old after a couple books of it?  Or is this super evil super villain with all of these super objects at his disposal somehow going to go poof, like Quentyn did, in which case, why bother?  

Ack, the whole story structure has just gone out of control.

I also agree Theon and Asha are the only IB POVs that were needed.

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I never felt like Euron was out of place, he and every other character that appeared during forth and fifth book to me looked very natural, like he was there the whole time, same with Victarion, Martells and so on. I also did not hear Martin ever say Euron was not a planned character, that it all just came to him and puff...He was there. If he did, please quote him, I would be interested in reading it. Neither would I say his writing got out of hand because of Euron or any one character, from the start he showed tendency to expand and do more than planned.

Saying how nobody would care if Victarion and Euron never appear is a bit unrealistic, because if Tyrion was not there from the start nobody would complain, because they wouldn't know how good it would have been. I enjoyed both Euron and Victarion, Martells as well, three out of my four favorite characters are Euron, Vic and Doran, fourth being Roose.

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4 minutes ago, BadWo1f said:

I never felt like Euron was out of place, he and every other character that appeared during forth and fifth book to me looked very natural, like he was there the whole time, same with Victarion, Martells and so on. I also did not hear Martin ever say Euron was not a planned character, that it all just came to him and puff...He was there. If he did, please quote him, I would be interested in reading it. Neither would I say his writing got out of hand because of Euron or any one character, from the start he showed tendency to expand and do more than planned.

Saying how nobody would care if Victarion and Euron never appear is a bit unrealistic, because if Tyrion was not there from the start nobody would complain, because they wouldn't know how good it would have been. I enjoyed both Euron and Victarion, Martells as well, three out of my four favorite characters are Euron, Vic and Doran, fourth being Roose.

First time reading the series, I was a bit thrown off by Euron, Aeron and Victarion. It just seemed like GRRM was adding more and more Greyjoys into the story to give the Ironborns a bit of life and to add another threat to the overall story, which would soon come to an end. But the second time I read the series I found I began to really enjoy Victarion's chapters.

Admittedly, Aeron as a character didn't do much for me, but the exchanges between Euron and Victarion in Victarion's chapters were always fascinating. The dragon horn may well be one of the most intriguing items we have seen so far in the story, too, so I look forward to Dany's reaction to Victarion when he comes to meet her with it.

 

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18 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

First time reading the series, I was a bit thrown off by Euron, Aeron and Victarion. It just seemed like GRRM was adding more and more Greyjoys into the story to give the Ironborns a bit of life and to add another threat to the overall story, which would soon come to an end. But the second time I read the series I found I began to really enjoy Victarion's chapters.

Admittedly, Aeron as a character didn't do much for me, but the exchanges between Euron and Victarion in Victarion's chapters were always fascinating. The dragon horn may well be one of the most intriguing items we have seen so far in the story, too, so I look forward to Dany's reaction to Victarion when he comes to meet her with it.

 

It might come down to personal taste, but Euron and Victarion quickly became my favorites, enjoyed their chapters from the start. I don't think Euron and Victarion were written only so Ironborn could be a bigger threat.

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On 27.7.2017 at 8:13 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

How can he be a mary sue? Euron actually does all the horrible things he claims, no bullshit. He has the Armor, the horn and the wealth to hire a faceless man. There is no reason to doubt he has sailed the smoking sea and set foot in the freehold. He is badass. 

"Mary Sue" doesn't refer to being a fake or a decoy. Mary and Gary Sues are characters that the writer has unintentionally made way too spectacular, unique and grandeur in order to make them stand out. Mary or Gary Sue has extraordinary fantasy hair and eye colour, is the chosen one, receives a magical sword, single-handedly hands a troll's ass back to it, has 165 secret admirers, is the last of their kind, learns languages and baking five times faster than everybody else and has the most stunning looks ALWAYS, including when they're taking a shit. The same also goes to villains so Mary/Gary Sue villain is of course the baddest, biggest and most pompous around, pumped up with a magical serum and 13 forbidden hyper weapons of darkness.

I think it should be known by now that Martin loves playing around with classic tropes, fairytale elements, Mary Sue stunts and more. In fact, to me it seems this is his very trademark - he has taken the ingredients of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round, he spices them up with Lord of the Rings, there is a pinch of Cinderella and a spoonful of Ulysses. The thing just is, Martin takes the fairy out of the tale, beats the fuck out of it and replaces it with more historically accurate seasonings such as pestilence, betrayal and shit. His stories are gruesome, more realistic rewrites of many of the most well-known tropes and epics.

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3 hours ago, Dex the Dog said:

"Mary Sue" doesn't refer to being a fake or a decoy. Mary and Gary Sues are characters that the writer has unintentionally made way too spectacular, unique and grandeur in order to make them stand out. Mary or Gary Sue has extraordinary fantasy hair and eye colour, is the chosen one, receives a magical sword, single-handedly hands a troll's ass back to it, has 165 secret admirers, is the last of their kind, learns languages and baking five times faster than everybody else and has the most stunning looks ALWAYS, including when they're taking a shit. The same also goes to villains so Mary/Gary Sue villain is of course the baddest, biggest and most pompous around, pumped up with a magical serum and 13 forbidden hyper weapons of darkness.

I think it should be known by now that Martin loves playing around with classic tropes, fairytale elements, Mary Sue stunts and more. In fact, to me it seems this is his very trademark - he has taken the ingredients of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round, he spices them up with Lord of the Rings, there is a pinch of Cinderella and a spoonful of Ulysses. The thing just is, Martin takes the fairy out of the tale, beats the fuck out of it and replaces it with more historically accurate seasonings such as pestilence, betrayal and shit. His stories are gruesome, more realistic rewrites of many of the most well-known tropes and epics.

I had always understood that a mary sue was someone Ideal. A bit of wish fulfilment by the author. John Snow is very Mary Sue to me. But not euron  

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I think Euron will cause some serious damage before he dies. 

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I would agree that Euron is out of place in the context of the novels except for one major thing that makes this guy more believable, the psychedelic drugs. The whole opening of his "third eye" and the fact that he's tripping balls the whole time is important. If shade of the evening is anything like psychedelic drugs of our world, then it makes sense how a gifted and evil mind could go to a "head space" like Euron is when we meet him. Before his shade days he was probably just a heartless manipulative sociopath, but once his third eye became open he began to see the "big picture." For someone to use these mind altering substances (and already have an evil mind) it's easy to see how this plan of domination came to be. 

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I think Euron has a powerful patron, a villain who's been there from the beginning. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for GRRM to introduce such an influential character when the books are supposed to be gearing up for the conclusion. (Or it's the reason for the big delay). Anyway, they released a new Grejoy chapter where the Grejoy priest is on Euron's ship and sees a woman with hands shooting pale fire (or something) standing close to a smiling Euron. He has probably been to Asshai or the twisted Basilisk Islands where he met a witch or a magician. 

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On 2017-07-14 at 10:46 AM, blacken said:

It's bothered me for a while that Euron has been set up as such a powerful character. So far we know that Euron has or had:

- got away with multiple kin slayings

- been a successful explorer

- had enough riches of some kind to buy a faceless man assassination

- claims to have been to Valyria

- had chests of riches to disperse at the kings moot

- has a ship crewed by people he has mutilated but there is no mutiny

- has a dragon binder horn 

- has Valyrian steel armour

- has captured powerful warlocks

- has successfully invaded the Shield Islands  (although presumably that won't last)

- has intelligence and good looks

- may have some kind of greensight or the potential for it

- had a dragon's egg (allegedly)

- has possibly achieved some kind of occult knowledge through his imbibing of shade of the evening and by consisting with warlocks from all around

- is apparently feared in ports all over Essos 

 

It just seems like too much for one man. I'm not saying that the character is written badly or implausibly, GRRM does quite a good job of explaining Euron's philosophy, just that when GRRM has worked at the downfall of our 'heroes' before as in the failure of Robb's war and the red wedding, he has had to subtly tip the odds in the favour of the Lannisters and their allies (Race for the Iron Throne is really good at highlighting this). Never before has there been a character who is consistently so successful. Can you imagine Jon or Dany or any POV character getting such an easy ride?

 

I'm aware this kind of set up usually means a rather large downfall for a character but I know a lot of the fandom think Euron will be successful in getting a dragon/marrying Dany/ending the world or whatever particular theory you adhere to. Am I alone in being bothered by the idea that Euron could get a dragon so easily, for example, given the travails Dany has so far experienced in her arc?

 

Is anyone else waiting for the other show to drop? Does anyone else not believe the hype? 

 

I have heard and read other people's opinions about Euron being a stage 2 villain, for example, something no-one has face before, in an escalation of enemies towards the white walkers. To me Euron just seems like a huge Mary Sue villain and I have too much faith in GRRM's writing to believe that he will succeed.

I don't know... The character is pretty good imo. I'm guessing the rot in House Greyjoy didn't start with him molesting his brothers so there could be more revelations about that planned.

The thing that does bug me is how the captains at the Kingsmoot wasn't suspicious of him - even though he came straight from years and years of exile.

And also, Euron's sadism... Isn't it just a little bit too flamboyant?

On 2017-08-11 at 5:09 PM, Dex the Dog said:

"Mary Sue" doesn't refer to being a fake or a decoy. Mary and Gary Sues are characters that the writer has unintentionally made way too spectacular, unique and grandeur in order to make them stand out. Mary or Gary Sue has extraordinary fantasy hair and eye colour, is the chosen one, receives a magical sword, single-handedly hands a troll's ass back to it, has 165 secret admirers, is the last of their kind, learns languages and baking five times faster than everybody else and has the most stunning looks ALWAYS, including when they're taking a shit. The same also goes to villains so Mary/Gary Sue villain is of course the baddest, biggest and most pompous around, pumped up with a magical serum and 13 forbidden hyper weapons of darkness.

I think it should be known by now that Martin loves playing around with classic tropes, fairytale elements, Mary Sue stunts and more. In fact, to me it seems this is his very trademark - he has taken the ingredients of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round, he spices them up with Lord of the Rings, there is a pinch of Cinderella and a spoonful of Ulysses. The thing just is, Martin takes the fairy out of the tale, beats the fuck out of it and replaces it with more historically accurate seasonings such as pestilence, betrayal and shit. His stories are gruesome, more realistic rewrites of many of the most well-known tropes and epics.

:D Haha, he did a reverse-Grim on the fantasy genre!

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. Can you imagine Jon or Dany or any POV character getting such an easy ride?

No one sold Euron an army in exchange for one small object and then acted surprised when he used the army to kill the guy who sold him the army and then take the object back. Also no one literally gave Euron priceless magic artifacts for no reason. And enemy commanders aren't falling over themselves trying to murder each other and defect to him due to wanting to sleep with him.

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On 11/09/2017 at 9:24 PM, Nihlus said:

No one sold Euron an army in exchange for one small object and then acted surprised when he used the army to kill the guy who sold him the army and then take the object back. Also no one literally gave Euron priceless magic artifacts for no reason. And enemy commanders aren't falling over themselves trying to murder each other and defect to him due to wanting to sleep with him.

I suppose it's more about the complexity of their journeys and the moral dilemmas and conflicts they have to deal with. Jon and Dany both have a lot of hard decisions to make and lose important people, suffer emotionally and physically for their growth and the food things they get are very much balanced by bad.

I'm jumping to conclusions a bit with Euron as we've seen little of his past up close and his future is unknown, but if theories about him getting a dragon and conquering parts of westeros and generally getting everything he wants at no personal cost are true, then that is the difference between him and pretty much every other character in the story so far!

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