Uniqueness of the Kingdoms

[FylkirKarl]

We all know that every region of Westeros has a unique backstory, history, and culture with the Andal ones being the most common. Anyways, I'd like to point out a few unique things about the kingdoms, and ask a few questions.

There are four kingdoms/regions of Westeros that are dominated majority wise by one ethnic group, these kingdoms are the North, the Vale, Dorne, and the Iron Islands, also the four of the five kingdoms that don't end with -lands. Vale is majority Andal, North is majority First Men, Dorne is majority Rhoynish, and the Iron Islands are majority Ironborn, while the rest of the kingdoms like the Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, Reach are a mix of Andal and First Men with it leaning Andal. Anyways, these four kingdoms have a history of being independent and closed off to the rest of Westeros with Dorne being the only Kingdom to stand against the Targaryen conquest and not best, the North declaring independence against the Iron Throne along with the Iron Islands, and the Vale not sending troops to any faction in the WOT5K, being the only neutral faction along with the Dornish.

My belief of the end story of the ASOIAF will involve Daenerys ruling 5 of the 9 Westeros regions with them being the Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, and Reachlands while the four other kingdoms will remain independent due to the unique nature. I believe the Free Folk are going to either be absorbed by the North or live in their own little strongholds akin to the Orcs in Skyrim where they're tribes are independent from the North, and rule themselves.

My question however is do these unique four kingdoms have a chance of keeping their independence or will they inevitably be submitted and absorbed into whoever conquers them.

[Canon Claude]

The Vale and Dorne are not predominantly one culture. There are three kinds of Dornish people, and there are many First Men houses still very much intact and prosperous in the Vale, such as House Royce.

[FylkirKarl]

The Vale and Dorne are predominantly one culture along with the Iron Islands, and the North. The Vale is heralded as the most purely Andal kingdom, it's just that half of the Vale Lords didn't replace their First Men surname with a Andal one, probably promised a Andal warlords daughter. The Dornish and primarily Rhoynish with the Salty, Sandy, and Stony Dornish having different levels of First Men and Andal blood with the Stony being mostly Andal/First Men like Dayne.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

We all know that every region of Westeros has a unique backstory, history, and culture with the Andal ones being the most common. Anyways, I'd like to point out a few unique things about the kingdoms, and ask a few questions.

There are four kingdoms/regions of Westeros that are dominated majority wise by one ethnic group, these kingdoms are the North, the Vale, Dorne, and the Iron Islands, also the four of the five kingdoms that don't end with -lands. Vale is majority Andal, North is majority First Men, Dorne is majority Rhoynish, and the Iron Islands are majority Ironborn, while the rest of the kingdoms like the Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, Reach are a mix of Andal and First Men with it leaning Andal. Anyways, these four kingdoms have a history of being independent and closed off to the rest of Westeros with Dorne being the only Kingdom to stand against the Targaryen conquest and not best, the North declaring independence against the Iron Throne along with the Iron Islands, and the Vale not sending troops to any faction in the WOT5K, being the only neutral faction along with the Dornish.

My belief of the end story of the ASOIAF will involve Daenerys ruling 5 of the 9 Westeros regions with them being the Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, and Reachlands while the four other kingdoms will remain independent due to the unique nature. I believe the Free Folk are going to either be absorbed by the North or live in their own little strongholds akin to the Orcs in Skyrim where they're tribes are independent from the North, and rule themselves.

My question however is do these unique four kingdoms have a chance of keeping their independence or will they inevitably be submitted and absorbed into whoever conquers them.

Do you mean when spring comes back?  If so, an agreement may be signed by all parties to respect each other's boundaries.  That agreement will have authority as long as the dragons are around that presumably brokered the agreement and the leaders who signed on are in power.  Winter will weaken everybody and they won't be so eager to start a war so any agreement like that could last a few generations. 

It is tough to say what will happen to the free folk.  They are on the direct path of the white walkers.  They will be substantially reduced in numbers. 

[TMIFairy]

2 hours ago, FylkirKarl said:

My belief of the end story of the ASOIAF will involve Daenerys ruling 5 of the 9 Westeros regions with them being the Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, and Reachlands while the four other kingdoms will remain independent due to the unique nature.

I see those regions' unique independence being chiefly geography-driven. Although one can argue that unique culture came first - chicken or egg, you know

The Vale, maybe culturally distinct as "purest Andal" - due to ethnic cleansing or culture obliteration - can be attacked either thought the Blood Gate or from the sea. Works both ways - the Vale's attempts to subdue the Riverlands failed because of the Blood Gate chokepoint. The Taragaryen's subdued it because of dragons.

Dorne is separated from the Reach and Stormlands by mountains and desert.

Iron Islands are - well - islands

The North, same as the Vale, can only be attacked across the sea. So, again dragons ...

Hence I consider subduing the central core of Westeros - Riverlands, Stormlands, Reach, Crownlands, Westerlands - simply as easiest and "natural". Daenerys - if she is not assassinated/ gets her shit together/there still a Westeros to conquer in 302AC - may very well end up with that core only. And frankly, subduing those four outlying kingdoms is a bit of a vanity project. Does not really bring anything to a realm constituted by the five "core" Kingdoms. Unless one of these pisses of the 800 pound gorilla by (yes, Iron Born, I'm looking at your Old Way).

From the perspective of a hypothetical "Five Kingdoms" the Free Folk do not exist. They number even less than the Iron Born and are as good as "in a galaxy, far far away" -separated from the said Five Kingdoms by the entire North.

 

 

[cpg2016]

4 hours ago, FylkirKarl said:

The Vale and Dorne are predominantly one culture along with the Iron Islands, and the North. The Vale is heralded as the most purely Andal kingdom, it's just that half of the Vale Lords didn't replace their First Men surname with a Andal one, probably promised a Andal warlords daughter. The Dornish and primarily Rhoynish with the Salty, Sandy, and Stony Dornish having different levels of First Men and Andal blood with the Stony being mostly Andal/First Men like Dayne.

The Dornish are emphatically not one culture.  They're probably the most ethnically diverse kingdom of all.  Even if, say, half a million Rhoynar landed in Sunspear with Nymeria, that would still only be a fraction of the existing Dornish at the time.  Given the natural boundaries and poor harbors in Dorne, it's highly likely that it was predominantly First Men living there, and likely overwhelmingly so.  Over the millenia Andals and now Rhoynar have intermixed.  Given the historical animosity between the marcher lords and the Dornish, it's unlikely that there were too many intermarriages which would have brought Andal blood into Dorne.

The Vale is likely highly Andal, as the mountain clans are the dispossessed First Men that were defeated in the initial invasion.

The Northerners and ironborn are probably the most ethnically monolithic kingdoms.  The North has historically been rather aloof from the various wars and cultural intermixing in the southern kingdoms, with only the Thousand Year War with the Vale and the conflicts with the ironborn as our extant wars of the Westerosi "Great Game".  And the ironborn, obviously, have resisted assimilating the Andals - though whether they originated there or are First Men transplants is difficult to say.

[FylkirKarl]

Still, the Dornish, Valemen, Northmen, and Ironborn represent the most pure ethnic group of the four main ones in Westeros which are the Rhoynish, First Men, Andals, and Ironmen, they're the most unique and independent of the Seven Kingdoms with natural barriers like inhospitable land, oceans, and well defended forts. The Vale after being Andalized by ocean invasion remained relatively stable and closed off due to the only entry into the country being through sea invasion or through the Bloody Gate. The Ironborn were guarded by their huge navy, and the dangerous sea. The North by their landmass, inhospitable weather, and the fact that the only entry is through the West and East seas or going through Moat Cailin. The Dornish remained independent even from the Targaryens due to their inhospitable land, and their version of warfare which involves a lot of skirmishers, guerrilla warfare, use of terrain, and solid spear formations. Will these four unique regions of Westeros which represent the North, South, West, and East regions of Westeros be able to keep their independence, presumed to be under the leadership of King Jon Stark, King Harrold Arryn, King Theon Greyjoy, and Queen Arianne Martell. Hopefully the Greyjoy's might be saved by Melisandre resurrection Theon's lower appendage or else the future Greyjoy line will come from Asha, Euron or Victarion with a huge doubt on Aeron, Victarion, or Eurons offspring leading the Ironborn.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

The problem you will have is that who ever rules the 5 kingdoms will have a historic claim on the other realms.

At some point somebody will decide to re conquer the lost territory, who will defend the iron isles? 5 becomes 6 easily enough.  Can the Vale or North ressist all 6 regions, something that they have never had to do until the dragons showed up?

 

Dorne is the only one with a realistic chance of keeping its independence unless the 7 kingdoms splinter and each individual regions power is kept in check by its neighbours.

[TMIFairy]

IMO all four kingdoms have realistic chances of retaining independence. Both on the grounds of inaccessibility and low desirebility. Neither is strong enough to be a threat. Bah! All 4 together are no threat to the united Quintiplet.

The Iron Islands are the easiest to conquer - albeit this requires a fleet - as these are the weakest of the four and the sea is a two-way highway.

Historical "claims" aside it should be a cost versus benefit calculation. IMO the addition of neither of the 4 brings much to the 5.

So, unless any of those four starts raiding "5 KIngdom" territory a sensible ruler will leave them alone. Of course - there can be a loony with Alexander the Great/Aegon the Conquerer mentality on the IT. 

 

 

[FylkirKarl]

Claims mean nothing, right mean nothing either. Aegon won the kingdoms through conquest, and so will Daenerys have to. I agree that taking the Iron Islands will be the easiest, but one must agree that if the books even follow the TV show even a little bit, it looks like Daenerys might give them independence. With Daenerys being currently the only dragonrider, and a inexperienced one at that, the dragons will have limited use unless Daenerys is at every battle, or they understand complicated orders unless their orders are just to burn.

While we're on this topic, could the North have kept it's independence during Aegon's Conquest had it adopted tactics similar to the Dornish? The Reeds could of adopted the mantle of the Alligator King, akin to the Vulture King of Dorne and used the bogs and marshes of the Neck to keep out the Targaryen Army while the Northern Army uses their massive forests as cover during any invasions.

[TMIFairy]

51 minutes ago, FylkirKarl said:

While we're on this topic, could the North have kept it's independence during Aegon's Conquest had it adopted tactics similar to the Dornish?

I think that yes. But GRRM decided otherwise

 

[The Mountain That Flies]

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

While we're on this topic, could the North have kept it's independence during Aegon's Conquest had it adopted tactics similar to the Dornish? The Reeds could of adopted the mantle of the Alligator King, akin to the Vulture King of Dorne and used the bogs and marshes of the Neck to keep out the Targaryen Army while the Northern Army uses their massive forests as cover during any invasions.

It would have been a bit harder since there is simply more of the North to defend. Bear Island could have quite easily been taken with the combined navies of the Iron Islands and Reach, which would have given the Targs a valuable spot to lead attacks against the west coast of the North.  Meanwhile the eastern coast features White Harbor, which if taken (and defending cites was never in the Dornish playbook the North would be cribbing from) provided control of the White Knife, a massive tactical advantage. Both of these routes negate the influence of any Alligator King, and would prove very difficult for the North to counter.

[TMIFairy]

Well, nobody said that it would be easy

The North could also use the Nuclear Option - warging.

This is not my idea, mind you, I read it in a fanfic

Have a warg take over one of the dragons and attack the others. Or take over one of the riders and kill the other riders and then jump off. Result - all Targs dead, end of Conquest, Westeros goes back to its turf wars with a new configuration of ruling Houses.

Drawbacks - can one warg a dragon? The second option requires the breaking of the "Thou Shalt Not Warg People" taboo. Also - there are  three uncontrolled dragons running around

[Graydon Hicks]

14 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Well, nobody said that it would be easy

The North could also use the Nuclear Option - warging.

This is not my idea, mind you, I read it in a fanfic

Have a warg take over one of the dragons and attack the others. Or take over one of the riders and kill the other riders and then jump off. Result - all Targs dead, end of Conquest, Westeros goes back to its turf wars with a new configuration of ruling Houses.

Drawbacks - can one warg a dragon? The second option requires the breaking of the "Thou Shalt Not Warg People" taboo. Also - there are  three uncontrolled dragons running around

jon might be able to. that mix of warg potent first men blood with dragonlord blood of old valyria? might be interesting.

 

On 7/14/2017 at 11:26 AM, FylkirKarl said:

We all know that every region of Westeros has a unique backstory, history, and culture with the Andal ones being the most common. Anyways, I'd like to point out a few unique things about the kingdoms, and ask a few questions.

There are four kingdoms/regions of Westeros that are dominated majority wise by one ethnic group, these kingdoms are the North, the Vale, Dorne, and the Iron Islands, also the four of the five kingdoms that don't end with -lands. Vale is majority Andal, North is majority First Men, Dorne is majority Rhoynish, and the Iron Islands are majority Ironborn, while the rest of the kingdoms like the Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, Reach are a mix of Andal and First Men with it leaning Andal. Anyways, these four kingdoms have a history of being independent and closed off to the rest of Westeros with Dorne being the only Kingdom to stand against the Targaryen conquest and not best, the North declaring independence against the Iron Throne along with the Iron Islands, and the Vale not sending troops to any faction in the WOT5K, being the only neutral faction along with the Dornish.

My belief of the end story of the ASOIAF will involve Daenerys ruling 5 of the 9 Westeros regions with them being the Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, and Reachlands while the four other kingdoms will remain independent due to the unique nature. I believe the Free Folk are going to either be absorbed by the North or live in their own little strongholds akin to the Orcs in Skyrim where they're tribes are independent from the North, and rule themselves.

My question however is do these unique four kingdoms have a chance of keeping their independence or will they inevitably be submitted and absorbed into whoever conquers them.

i actually mentioned this kind of thing in another posting over what house would be best to for the iron throne. i was commenting on how i believe the targs were the best house because they werent native to westeros. as a foreign house from valyria, they had none of the regional prejudices that had all the other kingdoms at each others throats from centuries. they were effectively neutral to the regional squabbles, and with dragons could keep those provinces from killing each other in joyful mutual wars of genocide. over the 300 hundred years on the throne, the realm began to just see the targs as the symbol of a unified realm. then when robert took over, and kick the dragons out, that symbol was lost, and it looks like the kingdoms began to fracture again. they old hartes were still there, the stormlords hate the dornish, the dornish hate the reachers, the vale is still isolationist, the north, love them by the way, was still considered a bunch of backward tree worshipping barbarians from a frozen wasteland, the riverlands still get used as the battlefield for everyone elses wars, and the westermen as still pains in the ass. but without the symbol of unity that is house targaryen, all that really kept the realm together was the political equivalent of spit, paper clips, and bubblegum. why do you think the realm flew apart as quickly as it did after robert died? fols stopped seeing themselves as westerosi, and began to revert back to seeing themselves and reachmen, or northmen, and valemen, ect.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

2 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

why do you think the realm flew apart as quickly as it did after robert died? fols stopped seeing themselves as westerosi, and began to revert back to seeing themselves and reachmen, or northmen, and valemen, ect.

Not quite they all saw themselves as reachmen northmen etc. anyway, the problem was Robert didn't have an undisputed heir.  Same reason dance of dragons and Blackfryer rebellion started.

North riverlands and vale were quite happy to unite once more to take on the throne.  Stormlands and Reach united despite their historic rivalry.

Doran kept Dorne out of the war which is a surprise to most, if they hated the Stormlands so much why not raid it after Stannis lost the blackwater.

Iron born where never part of the rest of the kingdom anyway.

[Graydon Hicks]

i think doran kept dorn out of it, regardless how much he might have wanted to punish the lannisters, because the dornish military just cant compete with the kind of forces the kingdoms north of the marches can call. not just in numbers but in style of combat. dornish favor light cavalry, horse archers, and lightly armored spear men compared to the more heavily armor cavalry and knights farther north. the dornish cliamte just doesnt condone to any other style of army. the heat could kill an armored knight in hours. where dorn shines is when they fight defensively in their own lands and let the enemy come to them, then let the desert do the killing when possible. and he only had 10,000 to offer to the fight, compared to the north, riverlands, which could conjure up twice that, and the stormlands, reach, and westerlands could call up still more. and to reach those who would be most willing to work with the dornish, doran would have to punch through the all three of those far bigger forces. 

the iron born are pirates, plain and simple. and pirate never fight a pitched battle when they can simply raid where the enemy isnt. i hate them, and have to wonder, given how much trouble they give the mainland, even under targ rule,   why someone hasnt done the world a favor and wiped them out, and put all of the isles to sword and flame. it would costly, but then no one on the western coast would ever have to worry about iron reavers again, and if the iron throne could put its will to it, with the might of all the other kingdoms, it could be done. sorry, i just hate the iron born so much it gets my hackles up.

and robert did have an undisputed heir, but yes like the blackfyre rebellions, no one made issue of it til after he died that joff wasnt his. the dance was fully disputed, but in thise joff wasnt even robert's, and people were challenging the legitimacy of his claim in its entirety. in the dance, it was more an issue of favoring the first born child, a daughter, and her children, against her male half siblings by her father's second marriage. many of the nobles werent in favor of a reigning queen, and wanted the eldest male, while others were holding to Viserys the firsts preference for his daugher to inherent.

 i still hold that with the targs sitting the throne, who the people held subconsciously as the symbol for a united westeros, the realm was holding together. but when robert, a stormlord, supplanted them, the symbol vanished. now we have a stormlander on the throne. before the targs, if any regional ruler had tried to united the realm, all the provinces would be constantly rebelling. we have seen how the regional hatreds never really went away. i think it just took 20 years for those regional hates to percolated. and as soon as an excuse was given, such as the question of joffrey's legitimacy, everyone took the opportunity to make a break of it and try for their own preferences. the tyrells waffled between claims, they nothing to work with to try to take the throne for themselves, im jusrt shocked that they never tried to secede, but maybe none of the main family members  simply thought of it. dorn stayed out of it, and if not for the chance this supposed aegon gives them, they might have decided to break totally from the iron throne. vale is effective out of it with its isolationism, the westerlands are holding on to the fiction that joff is legit baratheon, fighting the stormlands over it. the north and riverland make a break. and it was the northern lords, not even robb, that pushed for that one in the first place. same goes for the iron isles.

[Pacala]

1 hour ago, Graydon Hicks said:

the iron born are pirates, plain and simple. and pirate never fight a pitched battle when they can simply raid where the enemy isnt. i hate them, and have to wonder, given how much trouble they give the mainland, even under targ rule,   why someone hasnt done the world a favor and wiped them out, and put all of the isles to sword and flame. it would costly, but then no one on the western coast would ever have to worry about iron reavers again, and if the iron throne could put its will to it, with the might of all the other kingdoms, it could be done. sorry, i just hate the iron born so much it gets my hackles up.

You forget about Harren the Black and Harenhall. If it wasnt Aegon`s dragons pobably the Ironborns where the only rulers of Westeros by now.

[Graydon Hicks]

with a rebellion on their hands every couple generations. not from the riverlords, i dont think its in them. they get stomped all over every time someone else has a war. but from the north, the stormlords, the reachers and westermen, yeah. i doubt they could take the vale. they would have to pass the bloody gate to properly assault the interior, and that choke point would butcher them.