Are Weirwoods undead trees?

[sgtpimenta]

A while ago, in a most excellent thread of @LmL, he suggested the idea that weirwoods could be some kind of zombified trees. I loved it.

First, there is their bone-and-blood color scheme. I mean, come on. If GRRM didn't want us to think about corpses and death, he would call it simply red-and-white. Or he could give them any other collor, for Faceless-God sake!

And there's lots and lots of mentions about weirwoods drinking blood and consuming human flesh. Like, you know, vampires or ghouls do. And the bone-and-blood trees are ageless and immortal, just like other undead creatures.

Finally, it bears reminding that there's no mention of any weirwood seed other than the infamous (Jojen) paste consumed by Bran. So, no source of new life, no natural means to reproduce themselves, and no baby Groot dancing around. That's the reason we don't have any weirwood in Kingslanding. The secret to plant a new weirwood tree seems to be lost a long, long time ago. Maybe because they are not alive (anymore)?

But where does it leave us? That's a unique take on the nature-worshiping trope, so cliché in fantasy literature: the magic tree which is the divine avatar of the tree hugging druidic religion is, actually, a flesh-consuming-blood-drinking-undead-tree. In fact, it's not a Tree of Life: it's a Death Tree.

What does it say about the old gods? And what are your thoughts about that?

[Ser Leftwich]

That a weirwood would not take root in the Eyrie comes up in AGOT.

"The builders had intended it as a godswood, but the Eyrie rested on the hard stone of the mountain, and no matter how much soil was hauled up from the Vale, they could not get a weirwood to take root here." - AGOT Catelyn VII -

Also, we have seen saplings, both at the Nightfort and The Whispers.

Not undead trees, just trees with a little magic.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

That a weirwood would not take root in the Eyrie comes up in AGOT.

"The builders had intended it as a godswood, but the Eyrie rested on the hard stone of the mountain, and no matter how much soil was hauled up from the Vale, they could not get a weirwood to take root here." - AGOT Catelyn VII -

Also, we have seen saplings, both at the Nightfort and The Whispers.

Not undead trees, just trees with a little magic.

This.  It's like a Venus flytrap on steroids.  Except it doesn't trap the protein on its own.  It depends on human servants to make sacrifices to it. 

[LmL]

Hey @sgtpimenta! I tend to think the death thing is more symbolic than literal, though i did entertain your idea also. As @Ser Leftwich says, we do have a couple of young weirwoods, and the older ones are the biggest, so they do grow and stuff. 

Nevertheless, I do think we are supposed to think about them as "wight trees." They are like zombies, eating brains as you say, but also having their skins slipped by others who control them, just like whatever force animates and controls the wights. They are like living dead trees, I would say, but again, figuratively. They are animated by dead spirits, and that's another angle on their being living dead trees. 

There's a quote I love about this which I am using in my next essay:

"Queen’s men in studded jacks and halfhelms handed each passing man, woman, or child a piece of white weirwood: a stick, a splintered branch as pale as broken bone, a spray of blood-red leaves. A piece of the old gods to feed the new. Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand."

and

"They came on, clutching their scraps of wood until the time came to feed them to the flames. R’hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice." 

That fire devouring the corpse is, in symbolic terms and according to me, the fiery spirits of the greenseers inside them which animate them, but that's a whole nother conversation. The way I see it, the trees eat the greenseer, and then the greenseer eats the tree out from the inside. I suspect there may not even be any tree consciousness left - only the minds of the parasite greenseers. The trees are like empty shells, perhaps, filled with the greenseer mind. I'm not sure about that, just a theory, but there you go. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Following cos this thread sounds like it might get interesting.

[PrettyPig]

Absolutely.   In fact, one of GRRM's major fictional influences has a big plot arc revolving around a race of sentient telepathic tree people.   When this race first arrived on Earth, they were mobile (think Ents), but time and their need to stay hidden/undetected from another race trying to destroy them (long story) led them to develop "roots"  - they evolved to become rooted to the ground like real trees, sacrificing their mobility to channel that energy into their telepathy, and after thousands of years the only humanoid element remaining to them are the remnants of the faces in their trunks.   Post-evolution, this race is capable of communicating telepathically with each other, and also to some degree the 'caretaker' race that has been protecting them for millennia.

That being said, I completely believe that not only are they alive/undead, there may also be some degree of sentience.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

As I have said before, the weirwoods are alive, and every single one of them is a tree-person like Bloodraven.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144065-the-cotf-master-plan-part-1/

[LmL]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Absolutely.   In fact, one of GRRM's major fictional influences has a big plot arc revolving around a race of sentient telepathic tree people.   When this race first arrived on Earth, they were mobile (think Ents), but time and their need to stay hidden/undetected from another race trying to destroy them (long story) led them to develop "roots"  - they evolved to become rooted to the ground like real trees, sacrificing their mobility to channel that energy into their telepathy, and after thousands of years the only humanoid element remaining to them are the remnants of the faces in their trunks.   Post-evolution, this race is capable of communicating telepathically with each other, and also to some degree the 'caretaker' race that has been protecting them for millennia.

That being said, I completely believe that not only are they alive/undead, there may also be some degree of sentience.

Hey @Pretty Pig, great to see you around! Awesome info here - what story are ypu talking about? It sounds delightful. 

[hiemal]

19 hours ago, sgtpimenta said:

 

 

Finally, it bears reminding that there's no mention of any weirwood seed other than the infamous (Jojen) paste consumed by Bran. So, no source of new life, no natural means to reproduce themselves, and no baby Groot dancing around. That's the reason we don't have any weirwood in Kingslanding. The secret to plant a new weirwood tree seems to be lost a long, long time ago. Maybe because they are not alive (anymore)?

 

"If you would savor the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree."

"This tree has been watered with blood."...  ADwD

The sapling growing in the Nightfort seems to point in this direction.

 

[LmL]

1 minute ago, hiemal said:

 

"If you would savor the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree."

"This tree has been watered with blood."...  ADwD

The sapling growing in the Nightfort seems to point in this direction.

 

I love this quote, because they are talking about making unsullied, who I think stand in for the Others. Watering weirwoods with blood is how you make a tree soldier, something like that.

[hiemal]

52 minutes ago, LmL said:

I love this quote, because they are talking about making unsullied, who I think stand in for the Others. Watering weirwoods with blood is how you make a tree soldier, something like that.

Me too. Go back a sentence and it ties in the forging of LB as well:

"When a smith makes a sword, he thrusts the blade into the fire, beats on it with a hammer, then plunges it into iced water to temper the steel."...ADwD

I think this could be a linchpin underlying the fundamental symbolism of the Song.

 

[PrettyPig]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey @Pretty Pig, great to see you around! Awesome info here - what story are ypu talking about? It sounds delightful. 

Ha!  I had a feeling that might send up the LmL bat signal.         Yeah, this is a fun one - actually the storyline that enticed me to make the Marvel business a bona-fide project.  I was saving this one until the end so I could dump out some foundation work for it first, but...life, amirite. 

If you can hang tight, I am going to draw up a Reader's Digest version that covers the bases and leaves out most of the complex detail that bogged me down in the first place - will flag you when it's done.   Should support some of your hypotheses but fair warning:  there IS a twist on these tree people that you won't see coming.  It'll be a good time, though; stay tuned.

[LmL]

8 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Ha!  I had a feeling that might send up the LmL bat signal.         Yeah, this is a fun one - actually the storyline that enticed me to make the Marvel business a bona-fide project.  I was saving this one until the end so I could dump out some foundation work for it first, but...life, amirite. 

If you can hang tight, I am going to draw up a Reader's Digest version that covers the bases and leaves out most of the complex detail that bogged me down in the first place - will flag you when it's done.   Should support some of your hypotheses but fair warning:  there IS a twist on these tree people that you won't see coming.  It'll be a good time, though; stay tuned.

Haha, yeah I understand not wanting to unveil the new idea until it's ready. I usually end up spilling the beans in these threads, but I find that trying to rephrase an idea often helps clarify it in my mind. I have to live with the ideas and symbols for a while before I really get the full picture. 

The other problem with writing something so massive and involved as your Marvel project or my project is that it really occupies all of your mental hard drive space, and sometimes you just can't read other people's really involved stuff because you just simply don't have anywhere to upload the new information. Right now I am neck deep in weirwood related ideas, but I have this whole body of notes and drafts on the others that I really want to get to also. And of course once I take it from notes to actual essay writing, I learn a lot in the process.

I've definitely read enough of your Marvel stuff to be quite sure that Martin is correlating a lot of things to those characters. I frequently mention it to people when I'm talking about how Martin draws from a lot more than just Norse mythology, and that you really have to marvel in amazement at the skill with which he weaves together all of the ideas which ever influenced him, ever. And of course it seems like a lot of the stuff you found correlates to what I have found, which is always reassuring. The stuff about doctor strange and Euron and the Bloodstone Emperor was all really interesting ( there were a couple of other Marvel characters that went into that Matrix whose names I do not recall but you know what I'm talking about). 

Anyway, I feel like I'm starting to get a pretty good grasp on the weird wood trees, so if you have something that is stumping you in relation to them, let me know if you want to compare notes.

[Weirwood Ghost]

Firstly, trees do actually live within a net larger than themselves, it's called the Wood Wide Web. Trees live symbiotically with other trees and fungi at the tree root level. The fungi assimilate forest litter on the ground, whether it be animal or vegetation, by breaking it down into nutrients for the fungi and tree, which has a mutual benefit for both tree and fungi. A nutritional trade occurs. One could argue that blood (memory in Martin's story) of an animal comes into play. Vegetative organic matter is a major part. These Wood Wide Webs are known to be as large as states in areas not broken by agriculture or human interference.

I understand the idea presented via imagery of Weirwoods appearing dead, but we have examples of other beings that appear this way that are not-dead; Ghost who is white as snow with molten red eyes, Melisandre with pale white skin and red eyes, The Ghost of High Heart with pale skin and red eyes.

Are the Weirwoods dead zombies? NO.

Are the Weirwoods alive with the power that nature possesses? ABSOLUTELY.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I've been reading a few posts recently about the Weirwoods and the Shade of the evening trees.  Which both seem to possess similar properties. And be kind of opposites of each other. Anyone else been thinking about that aspect of the story? I'm very interested to read that people have been looking into the trees. I've tried a few times to mark down how many Weirwoods we know of in Westeros and their descriptions, ages etc. But I never seem to catch them all.

 

[PrettyPig]

15 hours ago, LmL said:

The other problem with writing something so massive and involved as your Marvel project or my project is that it really occupies all of your mental hard drive space, and sometimes you just can't read other people's really involved stuff because you just simply don't have anywhere to upload the new information.

You aren't kidding....right now there's so much stuff clanging around in my brain on multiple topics that critical mass is quickly approaching - 404, URL not found.  One of the reasons I'm theory-dumping in a frenzy at the moment is to clear some head space.

15 hours ago, LmL said:

I frequently mention it to people when I'm talking about how Martin draws from a lot more than just Norse mythology, and that you really have to marvel in amazement at the skill with which he weaves together all of the ideas which ever influenced him, ever.

It is mind-blowing, truly.    Re: the Norse mythology, I've been saying all along that he's totally drawing from it, but secondhand...Marvel is FULL of it and I'm quite sure that he's pulling primarily from that creative pool as a reference point - Stan & Co already did a lot of the heavy lifting on that front.    It's clear that he's blending the real with the celluloid fictional though, and even expanding on it  - I worked up a brief but good example of that HERE regarding Ragnarok and the wolves, including the overlooked part of the legend regarding a Judas wolf that betrays his family at last minute to avert Ragnarok and save humanity.  (Short read, shouldn't be too distracting.)    I'm excited to see if GRRM will go this way in the books.

 

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've been reading a few posts recently about the Weirwoods and the Shade of the evening trees.  Which both seem to possess similar properties. And be kind of opposites of each other. Anyone else been thinking about that aspect of the story? I'm very interested to read that people have been looking into the trees.

I am currently wrapping up an essay that will be titled "The Sisterhood of Trees" that focuses on this very thing, albeit more on real-world dendrology and the legends that can be extrapolated to these two trees.    It's a companion/supplemental piece to the FD essay in my sig, and is a spinoff to the tree discussed in this essay as well as its "sister" tree  - a tree that is in the same family and, as you said, possesses similar properties while still being opposite in both appearance and magical significance.    I believe this will show weirwoods and SotE trees in a new light, which could have implications for the story and how we've been interpreting their representation.  

So, yeah.  Looking into the trees.   *shuffle*

[Unchained]

7 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

It is mind-blowing, truly.    Re: the Norse mythology, I've been saying all along that he's totally drawing from it, but secondhand...Marvel is FULL of it and I'm quite sure that he's pulling primarily from that creative pool as a reference point - Stan & Co already did a lot of the heavy lifting on that front.  

 

I am writing something about a brotherly rivalry that repeats over and over with one tricky and one strong brother.  He appears to be using Thor and Loki as the two and references myths with them in it over and over.  I am not sure if they were adopted brothers in the comic books like they are in the newer movies, but if they were, it fits exactly what I think I see with Loki as the overcompensating, insecure, ambitious younger who wants to be a king himself.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

 @PrettyPig Oh goody, rubs hands in glee...

[PrettyPig]

1 minute ago, Unchained said:

 I am not sure if they were adopted brothers in the comic books like they are in the newer movies, but if they were, it fits exactly what I think I see with Loki as the overcompensating, insecure, ambitious younger who wants to be a king himself.  

Yep, adopted - not blood - brothers in the comics as well.   Funny though, Loki is actually the character that I've had most trouble finding the counterpart for in ASOIAF  - obviously he has a lot in common with Littlefinger, but Marvel Loki (and real myth Loki) is a much larger character than that, so I'm trying to think bigger.   I've got someone in mind that @LmL might like (hint:  think about Loki's typical appearance/costume in the comics), but I have to do more work on it.   Interested to see what you come up with regarding the brother relationship...

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

You aren't kidding....right now there's so much stuff clanging around in my brain on multiple topics that critical mass is quickly approaching - 404, URL not found.  One of the reasons I'm theory-dumping in a frenzy at the moment is to clear some head space.

It is mind-blowing, truly.    Re: the Norse mythology, I've been saying all along that he's totally drawing from it, but secondhand...Marvel is FULL of it and I'm quite sure that he's pulling primarily from that creative pool as a reference point - Stan & Co already did a lot of the heavy lifting on that front.    It's clear that he's blending the real with the celluloid fictional though, and even expanding on it  - I worked up a brief but good example of that HERE regarding Ragnarok and the wolves, including the overlooked part of the legend regarding a Judas wolf that betrays his family at last minute to avert Ragnarok and save humanity.  (Short read, shouldn't be too distracting.)    I'm excited to see if GRRM will go this way in the books.

You shared some of your Marvel stuff with me before and I loved it (also being a comic fan myself). I agree. George is doing a double tap to the Norse tree by both going straight to the source, and also reverting back to his four color fanboy days and using that material as well. 

Tapping the tree twice to get the sweetest syrup. 

17 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I am currently wrapping up an essay that will be titled "The Sisterhood of Trees" that focuses on this very thing, albeit more on real-world dendrology and the legends that can be extrapolated to these two trees.    It's a companion/supplemental piece to the FD essay in my sig, and is a spinoff to the tree discussed in this essay as well as its "sister" tree  - a tree that is in the same family and, as you said, possesses similar properties while still being opposite in both appearance and magical significance.    I believe this will show weirwoods and SotE trees in a new light, which could have implications for the story and how we've been interpreting their representation.  

So, yeah.  Looking into the trees.   *shuffle*

I can't wait. My reading list is totally discombobulated, but I will get to it.