snow is the man

Jon is not a fire wight.

41 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Thank you, someone who understands, 

Absolutely. I mean, those are the words, direct from the guy who wrote the books.  Not much to interpret there, right?  He says they are fire wights, then they are fire wights. Period.  He says no beating heart, no blood running through their veins.  Seems pretty straight forward...

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18 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

But what we know is that Jon will be resurrected in the books, and by Melisandre, right?  I think we can all agree to that.  No chance such a big event happens in the show that doesn't happen in the books. That said, Beric and Jon would be fire wights.  The reason we know that is, as I posted earlier, GRRM said, in his own words: 

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

The main things to focus on are 1) to say Beric was set up as the foreshadowing is referring to Jon being the same as Beric in that they are  both resurrected by fire, thus becoming fire wights, and 2) he clearly states that they are not living human beings anymore.  No beating heart, no blood flowing through their veins. I think that directly contradicts your points made in your post.  @Samwell_Tarly used the term wight correctly in my mind.  GRRM leaves no room for dispute there...

Again, we aren t really sure about if and how jon ressurects because his ressurection had no consequences in the show besides leaving the NW which can happen diferently... And don t forget that the show cut a lot of magic that exists in the books, so them using mel doesn t mean she must do it in the books.

Again, grrm doesn t say that beric was foreshadowing for jon specifcally. You are the one assuming it as fact. Besides what we actually know as 99% fact is that if jon dies his conscience will go into gohst! It won t go into whatever comes after life and it is a great difference compared to beric. Just this fact makes me doubt that mel could ressurect jon with a dead body because we hanven t seen noone warging into a dead body yet and somehow move the body.

So could you discribe preciselly what is a fire wight for you?

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I'll say again:  the author wrote himself into a corner if/when he kills and resurrects Jon if he intends that he have a relationship with Dany.  I have no idea how he will write Jon's POV as a reanimated corpse and I doubt he's going to eliminate Jon's POV.  And, if he makes Jon a special snowflake wight, then he's doing exactly what he criticized Tolkien for, LOL.  No wonder he can't get anything done on the story.  Though, it's really not funny at all.

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5 minutes ago, divica said:

Again, we aren t really sure about if and how jon ressurects because his ressurection had no consequences in the show besides leaving the NW which can happen diferently... And don t forget that the show cut a lot of magic that exists in the books, so them using mel doesn t mean she must do it in the books.

Again, grrm doesn t say that beric was foreshadowing for jon specifcally. You are the one assuming it as fact. Besides what we actually know as 99% fact is that if jon dies his conscience will go into gohst! It won t go into whatever comes after life and it is a great difference compared to beric. Just this fact makes me doubt that mel could ressurect jon with a dead body because we hanven t seen noone warging into a dead body yet and somehow move the body.

So could you discribe preciselly what is a fire wight for you?

So you are saying that my assumption of Jon being resurrected by Melisandre carries less creed than your assumption that Jon wargs into Ghost?  That's interesting...

I myself never bought into the "jon said Ghost's name, therefore he is warging into him" theory.  Jon has never shown the ability to warg at will.  He, along with other Stark children have been known to have wolf dreams, which I think is them warging into them while they sleep.  But Bran is the only one that can warg at will while awake.  That said, my belief is that in the next book, it will be revealed that Jon called out to Ghost as if asking for him to come to his aid.  I could be wrong, but this is such a huge event in the books and show, I just can't see D&D changing that aspect of things so dramatically.  They could have easily gone the route of Jon warging into Ghost, and Mel bringing him back without changing much from what they used in the show.  I just don't see Jon warging into Ghost temporarily.  He died, and was brought back, like Beric had been many times.  That is the foreshadowing that GRRM was referring to.  The show may have left out a lot of magic, but they made it a point to mention Beric being brought back 6-7 times already, then showed us.  All of that was foreshadowing to Jon's death and resurrection.  That much is clear. 

To answer your question about what precisely a fire wight is, it's a person resurrected from death by fire as opposed to ice.  GRRM said so. Case closed, right? 

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13 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

So you are saying that my assumption of Jon being resurrected by Melisandre carries less creed than your assumption that Jon wargs into Ghost?  That's interesting...

I myself never bought into the "jon said Ghost's name, therefore he is warging into him" theory.  Jon has never shown the ability to warg at will.  He, along with other Stark children have been known to have wolf dreams, which I think is them warging into them while they sleep.  But Bran is the only one that can warg at will while awake.  That said, my belief is that in the next book, it will be revealed that Jon called out to Ghost as if asking for him to come to his aid.  I could be wrong, but this is such a huge event in the books and show, I just can't see D&D changing that aspect of things so dramatically.  They could have easily gone the route of Jon warging into Ghost, and Mel bringing him back without changing much from what they used in the show.  I just don't see Jon warging into Ghost temporarily.  He died, and was brought back, like Beric had been many times.  That is the foreshadowing that GRRM was referring to.  The show may have left out a lot of magic, but they made it a point to mention Beric being brought back 6-7 times already, then showed us.  All of that was foreshadowing to Jon's death and resurrection.  That much is clear. 

To answer your question about what precisely a fire wight is, it's a person resurrected from death by fire as opposed to ice.  GRRM said so. Case closed, right? 

To me a fire wight is a person ressurected by fire into a body animated by fire magic. It isn t a true ressurection. That is what grrm said. 

 

And jon warging into gohst is 99% true because of the prologue and mel vision where jon is constantly changing between gohst and man. Adding that jon thinks of gohst in the last moment there is a lot of book canon that supports this theory.

On the other hand there is zero book canon suporting mel ressurecting jon in the book. She shouldn t even have the motivation to do so. You are using show canon and using an interview about another character to predict future book events. However, in matters related to magic the show isn t a good source.

For example, what would be the point for the show to have jon warging into gohst? 1) there would tons of people saying it was deux ex machina 2) they don t want the starks warging into the wolves 3) jon ressurection had zero consequences, so why add the warging?

Warging into gosht would only be useful for book readers...

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, divica said:

Again, we aren t really sure about if and how jon ressurects because his ressurection had no consequences in the show besides leaving the NW which can happen diferently... And don t forget that the show cut a lot of magic that exists in the books, so them using mel doesn t mean she must do it in the books.

Again, grrm doesn t say that beric was foreshadowing for jon specifcally. You are the one assuming it as fact. Besides what we actually know as 99% fact is that if jon dies his conscience will go into gohst! It won t go into whatever comes after life and it is a great difference compared to beric. Just this fact makes me doubt that mel could ressurect jon with a dead body because we hanven t seen noone warging into a dead body yet and somehow move the body.

So could you discribe preciselly what is a fire wight for you?

A fire wight is a human resurrected by the fire god through a red priestess/priest. ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!!!

 We have acknowledged this way back at the beginning but everyone seems to ignore.

Edited by Samwell_Tarly

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22 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

A fire wight is a human resurrected by the fire god through a red priestess/priest. ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!!!

 We have acknowledged this way back at the beginning but everyone seems to ignore.

To me it is a person ressurected by fire magic into a body animated by fire magic. The body isn t alive. To me that is the complete information given by grrm.

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

To me it is a person ressurected by fire magic into a body animated by fire magic. The body isn t alive. To me that is the complete information given by grrm.

What do you mean a body animated by fire magic, please explain?? 

Your talking crap im sorry but GRRM has confirmed Beric Dondarrion is a fire wight as he has been resurrected by the fire god, the same happened to Jon, hes a fire wight. A dead person resurrected by the fire god. 

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11 minutes ago, divica said:

To me it is a person ressurected by fire magic into a body animated by fire magic. The body isn t alive. To me that is the complete information given by grrm.

I don't see how this is confusing.  He says Beric is a fire wight.  Beric was resurrected by Thoros, a red priest.  Jon was (in the show) resurrected by Mel, a fire priestess.  The process is the same.  The result is the same.  Beric and Jon are the same.  It's simple.  The fact that GRRM says Beric being resurrected by a fire priest makes him a fire wight.  With no beating heart or flowing blood.  If Jon is brought back the same, that would mean the other applicable pieces would be the same. What do you think the information about Beric is foreshadowing, if not Jon's resurrection???

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8 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

What do you mean a body animated by fire magic, please explain?? 

Your talking crap im sorry but GRRM has confirmed Beric Dondarrion is a fire wight as he has been resurrected by the fire god, the same happened to Jon, hes a fire wight. A dead person resurrected by the fire god. 

Quote

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

Have you read what grrn says?

He calls him a wight because even though he is ressurected his body is dead, his heart isn t beating. What I am saying is that a fire wight is a person ressurected by fire magic into a dead body that stays dead (so the body is animated by fire magic because it is biologically impossible for a dead body to.move).

In the show jon and beric bodies have beating hearts and breath... therefore they aren t fire wights. They are people ressurected with fire magic into living bodies. Did you understand?

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10 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I don't see how this is confusing.  He says Beric is a fire wight.  Beric was resurrected by Thoros, a red priest.  Jon was (in the show) resurrected by Mel, a fire priestess.  The process is the same.  The result is the same.  Beric and Jon are the same.  It's simple.  The fact that GRRM says Beric being resurrected by a fire priest makes him a fire wight.  With no beating heart or flowing blood.  If Jon is brought back the same, that would mean the other applicable pieces would be the same. What do you think the information about Beric is foreshadowing, if not Jon's resurrection???

Again. In the show there aren t fire wights because both jon and beric have beating hearts and breath. So beric doesn t foreshadow a lot besides plot holes. Besides grrm says beric.is a wight because his body is dead even though he is alive (read your quote).

 

So if in the books there are consequences for ressurectiom amd diferent ways to use magic that don t exist in the show what do you want to conclude? Logic show is diferent from book logic...

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52 minutes ago, divica said:

Again. In the show there aren t fire wights because both jon and beric have beating hearts and breath. So beric doesn t foreshadow a lot besides plot holes. Besides grrm says beric.is a wight because his body is dead even though he is alive (read your quote).

 

So if in the books there are consequences for ressurectiom amd diferent ways to use magic that don t exist in the show what do you want to conclude? Logic show is diferent from book logic...

Here is the quote, word for word from GRRM:

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

Can you point out where it says "beric.is a wight because his body is dead even though he is alive (read your quote)."

i'll wait...

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Here is the quote, word for word from GRRM:

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

Can you point out where it says "beric.is a wight because his body is dead even though he is alive (read your quote)."

i'll wait...

To me in the bolded part where he says "his heart isn t beating, his blood isn t flowing in his veins, he's a wight". Him being a wight is a conclusion from what he said earlier.

If his body was alive he wouldn t be a wight.

Edited by divica

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, divica said:

To me in the bolded part where he says "his heart isn t beating, his blood isn t flowing in his veins, he's a wight". Him being a wight is a conclusion from what he said earlier.

If his body was alive he wouldn t be a wight.

Lol!! Oh my goodness!  I'm sorry, but you are contradicting yourself.  You're pointing out the words that disprove what you are saying, and saying that they prove your case. I am completely perplexed.  I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I REALLY don't get it.  The words say: "HIS HEART ISN'T (meaning IS NOT) BEATING. HIS BLOOD ISN'T (again IS NOT) FLOWING IN HIS VEINS. HE IS (meaning IS) a wight."  GRRM is clearly saying Beric IS NOT ALIVE.  He says that. Clearly. IS NOT ALIVE. You state above "If his body was alive, he wouldn't be a wight." Agreed. GRRM is saying, again, Beric IS NOT ALIVE.  So he IS a wight.  Focus.  GRRM last sentence in that quote is "HE IS A WIGHT."  Period. lol  @Samwell_Tarly is today April Fool's or Opposite Day????

I'm starting to really think you're trolling here and just messing with our heads... 

 

Edited by Jaehaerys Stark

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5 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

 "HIS HEART ISN'T (meaning IS NOT) BEATING. HIS BLOOD ISN'T (again IS NOT) FLOWING IN HIS VEINS. HE IS (meaning IS) a wight."  

If Beric doesn't have a working circulatory system how do you explain him bleeding in ASoS?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Lol!! Oh my goodness!  I'm sorry, but you are contradicting yourself.  You're pointing out the words that disprove what you are saying, and saying that they prove your case. I am completely perplexed.  I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I REALLY don't get it.  The words say: "HIS HEART ISN'T (meaning IS NOT) BEATING. HIS BLOOD ISN'T (again IS NOT) FLOWING IN HIS VEINS. HE IS (meaning IS) a wight."  GRRM is clearly saying Beric IS NOT ALIVE.  He says that. Clearly. IS NOT ALIVE. You state above "If his body was alive, he wouldn't be a wight." Agreed. GRRM is saying, again, Beric IS NOT ALIVE.  So he IS a wight.  Focus.  GRRM last sentence in that quote is "HE IS A WIGHT."  Period. lol  @Samwell_Tarly is today April Fool's or Opposite Day????

I'm starting to really think you're trolling here and just messing with our heads... 

 

I don t understand you. You are saying that you agree that if somebody is alive he wouldn t be a wight. In the show beric's body is alive so you agree he isn t a wight?

Honestly I didn t understand your post. The discussion was if in the show beric and jon are fire wights or not because their bodies are alive. And you agree with me and then talk about the books where beric is obviously a fire wight because grrm said so.

Edited by divica

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We don't even know if Jon will actually die in the books.  GRMM himself mentioned to a fan "you think Jon is dead?"  As for the show, we all know that they don't care about that sort of thing. 

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3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Lol!! Oh my goodness!  I'm sorry, but you are contradicting yourself.  You're pointing out the words that disprove what you are saying, and saying that they prove your case. I am completely perplexed.  I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I REALLY don't get it.  The words say: "HIS HEART ISN'T (meaning IS NOT) BEATING. HIS BLOOD ISN'T (again IS NOT) FLOWING IN HIS VEINS. HE IS (meaning IS) a wight."  GRRM is clearly saying Beric IS NOT ALIVE.  He says that. Clearly. IS NOT ALIVE. You state above "If his body was alive, he wouldn't be a wight." Agreed. GRRM is saying, again, Beric IS NOT ALIVE.  So he IS a wight.  Focus.  GRRM last sentence in that quote is "HE IS A WIGHT."  Period. lol  @Samwell_Tarly is today April Fool's or Opposite Day????

I'm starting to really think you're trolling here and just messing with our heads... 

 

Its one of them days were the trolls come out and use some big works to make them look photosynthesis.

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Right Ive had a little think done a little research.Why does Beric Bleed??? How can a man who is said to have no heart beat and no blood flowing through his veins bleed when he is cut open.

Here is my arguements

  1. what GRRM said is a metaphor that refers to his mental state and that after each resurrection a little more of him disappears.
  2. His blood actually isnt blood, its light fire?? GRRM says ''think of dragons, reat heat emanates from dragons' bodies, to the point that they steami during cold nights. When Daenerys rides Drogon, she thinks about her dragons being fire in flesh.

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On 7/17/2017 at 8:54 PM, Eddard Scissorhands said:

It's just some people interpreting GRRM's recent words in a certain way and then applying it to the extreme. Beric has died many times over and each time he is less complete of a living human and thus each time closer to a sort of fire 'wight', because he was resurrected by the lord of light. Jon has probably been affected by the resurrection in a physical way, but to a much lesser degree, so no, I doubt he is a type of lifeless fire wight at this point. 

He may have been effected to a lesser degree, but that only means he's a lesser degree of fire wight. Can't deny GRRM's words

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