The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD II

[Kalbear]

18 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

I figured out the title of the next series:

 

The Baby Prophet

If you are right, the next series would probably be better named as something like "The Reborn God". 

[Werthead]

On 16/07/2017 at 6:15 AM, Hello World said:

By the way, when would it be appropriate to edit the Wiki with spoilers from TUC?

I'd say a month or so after the official US release date.

 

[Hello World]

7 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Eh, time doesn't move in a line when the Outside is involved.  It's more a wibbly wobbly ball of timey wimey stuff.  Also the Ark is pretty high up there, and time moves slower deeper in a gravity well, after all.  Everything in that room happened pretty fast from the perspective of the ground.  Sure, Ajokli could find Baby-Kellhus if he were looking for Baby-Kellhus, but the Gods can't Reason, only Intuit as the Dunyain say.  And Ajokli's intuition was to look at the big tornado.

The whole reason Ajokli even noticed the Consult's absence is because of his Aspect, I think.  He knew people were really, really hating something he could not see.  No one hates Baby-Kellhus, so he hasn't noticed him.

What would be the point of this whole BabyKellhus thing? I'm just confused.

[jurble]

Bakker gets to write his own Infancy Gospel.

[unJon]

7 hours ago, Hello World said:

What would be the point of this whole BabyKellhus thing? I'm just confused.

St Alia of the Knife + metagnosis ?

[Valandil]

Was just thinking that. It would be very Duneish. He's always said it was an influence. But wasn't Kelhus already salted before No-God intiation? I suppose its possible given the apparently confused timeline around that period and all the hints at Kelhus soul/mind/head swapping research. If he is in Mimara's baby, how much of his Dunyain abilities does he retain? Aren't his superior mental/physical capabilities the result of millennia of selective breeding? Akka and Mimara's child certainly doesn't have that. Although it surely was ingesting a lot of potent Nil'Giccas Qirri in utero. No-God knows how that affected the foetus.

Will he be the Jesus to his own John the Baptist? I liked the idea Ajurbkli came up with above that the reason Mimara was struck blnd when she looked on her own child was that her child was Kelhus and she really had seen him with Judging Eye and proved his divinity.

 

[Valandil]

From the Syriac Infancy Gospel, Jesus speaking as a baby from the crib:

"He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world."

Elliott, J.K. (1993). The Apocryphal New Testament : A Collection of Apocryphal Christian Literature in an English Translation: A Collection of Apocryphal Christian Literature in an English Translation. Oxford University Press, UK. ISBN 9780191520327.

MMMmmm.

[lokisnow]

On 7/17/2017 at 5:33 AM, unJon said:

This is consistent with the evidence I think. Alternative explanation:

1) Possessed Cnauir couldn't see the No God. That was the "nothing" he saw. It isn't an issue of not seeing into Golgotterath in that scene. 

 

 

Actually it IS an issue of not seeing into Golgotteranth because the carapace is an extension / prosthesis of Ark, and therefore possesses the characteristics of Ark. 

So if Golgotteranth and/or the Golden Room is not perceptible to the Gods, then axiomatically the carapace must also always be not perceptible to the Gods.

 

 

[lokisnow]

On 7/17/2017 at 0:11 PM, Kalbear said:

As far as I can tell this doesn't work timeline wise at all. It's hard to say. It certainly doesn't work if you assume everything in the book happens in linear time from every other thing or at the very least at the same time, but we don't know how much time was spent in the Golden Room. That said, I'm not even sure Kellhus had gone into Ark before Mimara had her first baby. 

The simplest explanation says that this works out Exactly timeline wise.

The interval between naturally delivered Twin births is, on average, 17 minutes. Let us say that for Mimara, being qiiri enhanced and also full of the adenaline et al (that being in a battle one would experience) is going to be near the top of the interval distribution, so probably five minutes or less between the birth of the twins.

We know that in the interval between births, Kelmomas was placed in the carapace because the second infant was still born. We know the second infant was viable shortly before this because Koringhus could hear both heart beats.  

the events of the golden room are dramatically spaced out for the benefit of the reader and are not in a continuous timeline with the events at the base of the horns (and the flashback reveal indicates the author is doling out information for dramatic effect not for linear continuity).

the second twin still birth indicates that Kelmomas was placed into the carapace in the interval between births, and thus we can unify the timelines at that obvious anchor point.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

We know that in the interval between births, Kelmomas was placed in the carapace because the second infant was still born. We know the second infant was viable shortly before this because Koringhus could hear both heart beats.  

 

2 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

the events of the golden room are dramatically spaced out for the benefit of the reader and are not in a continuous timeline with the events at the base of the horns (and the flashback reveal indicates the author is doling out information for dramatic effect not for linear continuity).

the second twin still birth indicates that Kelmomas was placed into the carapace in the interval between births, and thus we can unify the timelines at that obvious anchor point.

I was going to well-actually this, but if you read the book linearly it actually works entirely perfectly. The mention of the first birth happens as Kellhus gets to Mek and the Golden Room; the mention of the second birth is first done right after the end of chapter 18, at the beginning of chapter 19 - resumption.

So it does seem that the second one dies due to the No-God, which is odd given the TJE prediction of all stillborn children prior to this. 

That said, there's a pretty fair amount of time prior to that when they have the kid, and it doesn't seem like there's a lot of time between Kellhus getting salted and Kelmomas getting stuffed in there. 

[jurble]

39 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So it does seem that the second one dies due to the No-God, which is odd given the TJE prediction of all stillborn children prior to this.

Ultimate cause is The God deciding Mimara should possess the Eye with all its attendant consequences, but the proximal cause can be the No-God.  No reason God can't work through the auspices of the world (which might make a distinction between the Gods and God - reality as it happens is God's will, He doesn't 'intervene' in the manner the Gods do).

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Ultimate cause is The God deciding Mimara should possess the Eye with all its attendant consequences, but the proximal cause can be the No-God.  No reason God can't work through the auspices of the world (which might make a distinction between the Gods and God - reality as it happens is God's will, He doesn't 'intervene' in the manner the Gods do).

The oddity isn't that the second baby is stillborn; the oddity is that the firstborn baby is alive. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Was thinking while reading the glossary, this whole 144,000 thing is gonna be a bit hard and give "whoever" time to defeat the No-God. Because I'm sure there are more than 144,000 people in Eanna and it's like they don't even matter. I mean they are a part of this world that Earwa is on. And, what's to say that there isn't another continent with more people? 

[jurble]

There are two more continents we know of - Kutnarmu and Eanna.   That's why I like the Indigio Plague being a function of the No-God, since apparently just letting the No-God run for 70 years and watch the world population slowly tick down wasn't or isn't an option.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I don't know how much I am buying Mimara had baby Kellhus. When rereading it, it feels like Kel surprised the shit out of Kellhus and he's toast. Maybe it's part of tricking the Trickster, I don't know. Though, I will admit that the tapestry find is definitely enticing evidence that maybe Mimara did have Baby Kellhus.

[redeagl]

Baby Kellhus is a funny theory IMO. I don't buy into that. Though, I am still wondering what the baby's importance will be ( if he has any importance from the first place, he could just be some motivation for Akka ) .

[Gaston de Foix]

2 hours ago, redeagl said:

Baby Kellhus is a funny theory IMO. I don't buy into that. Though, I am still wondering what the baby's importance will be ( if he has any importance from the first place, he could just be some motivation for Akka ) .

I don't buy that the baby is the messiah.   Achiaman = Seswatha = messiah. 

Another question:  Has the metagnosis vanished from Earwa? Serwa appears to be dead, Saccarees is almost certainly down for the count and Kellhus is salt. 

[redeagl]

12 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I don't buy that the baby is the messiah.   Achiaman = Seswatha = messiah. 

Another question:  Has the metagnosis vanished from Earwa? Serwa appears to be dead, Saccarees is almost certainly down for the count and Kellhus is salt. 

Agree about Akka.

Didn't one of the Dûnyain use sorcery ? Pretty sure they would reach the metagnosis just like Kellhus.

[Happy Ent]

10 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Another question:  Has the metagnosis vanished from Earwa? Serwa appears to be dead, Saccarees is almost certainly down for the count and Kellhus is salt. 

Possible. The Dunsult, of course, can be expected to learn everything Kellhus did. So they might develop the Metagnosis. They know it exists, so that’s a huge hint for any scientist.

(Argument in favour: They have even better teachers, Quya mages. There are four of them, so they will level up much faster.)

(Argument against: Kellhus was a prodigy even by Dûnyain standards.)

I’m less sure the Dunsult will develop the Daimos, let alone the Metadaimos.

[jurble]

I'm curious how much the DunSult even understand about the Tekne.  They restored a nuke and apparently figured out how to attach an external battery to the Sun Lance.  Since they aren't dead, they didn't irradiate themselves while restoring the nuke (unless there were more than five initially).  Attaching a battery to a laser gun isn't very impressive, and I wonder why the Consult couldn't manage it before, unless the Sun Lance was damaged or inoperable due to more complex problems.  

The fact that the Inversi weren't armed with firearms makes me think they haven't learned much in the way of chemistry.  And if they understood biology on the molecular level, they could probably work backwards into chemistry, their knowledge of biology is limited as well.  But with all the fancy electronics in the Ark, I imagine they've got a solid grasp of electrical engineering, but likely don't know anything about the underlying physics.

So what exactly can they do with that?  Without understanding physical chemistry, they can't make semiconductors.  But it shouldn't be too hard for them to figure out generators and vacuum tubes.   Does sorcery work via radio? Heck, they can make gramophones!  They don't even need to know how to make vinyl - any scratch-able medium works, you know.  Can they record themselves speaking utteral strings onto a record, and play a hundred gramophones at once - and have multiple utteral strings?