The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD II

[Larry of the Lawn]

Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world

[IllusiveMan]

A few more random thoughts since the major ones have more or less been addressed.

1. Did anyone recall Bakker saying we weren't done with Kosotor? That was one end that was never addressed far as I can tell (and wouldn't be something I would have expected to be addressed if he hadn't said that himself).

2. I'm surprised no one has brought up Sorweel's rape via Zrongsa (I misspelled that, didn't I?). While the initial act seems consensual, Sorweel goes out of his way to mention his friend's greater strength and that he has no real say. Did I misread that (i was reading very fast at this point) -  this entire addition felt strange and odd to me. 

3. Was Moenghus castrated? Again, I feel I was reading so fast to the point where I misunderstood several things, and again Bakker is unclear on many things. But he did mention the 'limb' that lets him feel anger (or something to that effect) being taken from him, and I can't really figure out what that would mean otherwise. But it's not really addressed outside of that.

Someone also mentioned about that one character in the Ordeal was Saved while the rest seemed Damned. Is there any way to determine why this is? What did he do differently compared to the rest? Bakker said who is saved and who is damned is one of the key aspects of the series, but I feel like we still don't have any real idea why some are and why some aren't (outside of the very obvious acts of rape/murder/evil). Mimara, Esmenet, Sorweel, and that random Ordealman are saved and the rest seem damned. Is the system morality based,  as implied? Or is it the whims of the gods that determines things? There seems to be hints of both. The gods promise punishment to those they deem evil or act against them, which implies they have some control over Damnation (Kellhus's deal with Ajokli would suggest as much as well, cause otherwise what is the point?). But Esmenet and Mimara certainly can't be on good terms with the gods, and Sorweel messed up his whole divine assassin goal pretty badly. So there seems to be hints that a great power (the God) actually judges. 

[jurble]

15 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

3. Was Moenghus castrated? Again, I feel I was reading so fast to the point where I misunderstood several things, and again Bakker is unclear on many things. But he did mention the 'limb' that lets him feel anger (or something to that effect) being taken from him, and I can't really figure out what that would mean otherwise. But it's not really addressed outside of that.

No... when he thinks

Quote

This should have occasioned fury, but the limb required had been hacked from him,

he's just being metaphorical.    He should feel angry, but he can't because he's emotionally broken.

[IllusiveMan]

Ah! Cheers, I thought that was weird phrasing but couldn't; figure to what it referred. Now it seems strikingly obvious. Again, this comes with reading too much Bakker too fast. 

[jurble]

20 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

2. I'm surprised no one has brought up Sorweel's rape via Zrongsa (I misspelled that, didn't I?). While the initial act seems consensual, Sorweel goes out of his way to mention his friend's greater strength and that he has no real say. Did I misread that (i was reading very fast at this point) -  this entire addition felt strange and odd to me. 

You didn't misread this and it's explicit in the text

Quote

That he had been and would be ravished, as certainly as a daughter of a conquered race.

Even whether the initial act is consensual depends on whether you can consent when trapped in the memories of a soul that had possessed you for a bit.

[IllusiveMan]

Yeah, didn't think I had, but was rather surprised no one had brought this bit up yet especially given the controversy stirred in TGO when Kellhus raped Proyas.

[Darth Richard II]

Ok, seriously, someone take away this man's italics function.

[wayward_ishroi]

Guys,

 

"Great Gate of Wheels—The sorcerous portal of the Coffers, notorious for using trapped souls, “proxies,” to proof the gate against Chorae. According to legend, the doors did not so much host sorceries, as continually cast and recast them."

 

As if Kellhus masters the (meta)-Daimos and doesn't have some kind of protection like this for himself against chorae. 

 

He is covered in salt but just holding really really still until shit settles down.

 

Also, if I was him I would put my head on Cet'ingira's body. Now you as strong as a nonman, and immortal to boot.

 

[Hello World]

Quote

 

As if Kellhus masters the (meta)-Daimos and doesn't have some kind of protection like this for himself against chorae.

He is covered in salt but just holding really really still until shit settles down.

 

[Happy Ent]

7 hours ago, IllusiveMan said:

'limb' that lets him feel anger

You’re seeing penises everywhere now.

Sometimes an anger limb is just an anger limb.

[PapushiSun]

Anybody?

Quote

Any wound, save the one that is mortal.

 

[WalterX]

3 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

Anybody?

 

As I recall (don't have book here) It's from TJE, Esmenet is griping.  She's saying, basically, why is life so hard for us?  Why do we have to suffer, etc?  "Our children...'  I think it is right after Samarmas dies.

[Callan S.]

Aye, I finished. I feel bad...

Not sure if the first page question was already resolved, but I think they didn't put chorae on the sarcophagi because it was being used to lure the ordeal out of Golgoterath and be exposed. If it had chorae in it sorcerers watching would all go 'Hey, why does Kellhus seem like he's several dozen chorae...that's odd!' 

[PapushiSun]

17 hours ago, WalterX said:

As I recall (don't have book here) It's from TJE, Esmenet is griping.  She's saying, basically, why is life so hard for us?  Why do we have to suffer, etc?  "Our children...'  I think it is right after Samarmas dies.

Did a cursory search and couldn't find it.

EDIT: I'll do a more thorough read and see if I can find it but I don't remember this line at all. 

[Callan S.]

I think Mimaras surviving baby will be twin souled, like Kelmomas had two souls after his twin died. And with it, could not be spotted by the godthings. Also seems confirmed when Mimara looks at her belly with the judging eye and the eye is described as struck blind. Maybe all other judging eye mothers only ever had one child and rarer twins weren't documented? In fact, it seemed a bit of a blunt statement in the text, for a change. Instead of yet another sentence that isn't quite fini....

Also Esme is quite the hitatron in the books - if it gets made into a series, I expect a GIF to be made of all the people she hits in it, looping over and over again!

Edit: Also I think the appearance of Kelmomas drives out Ajokli from Kellhus, because of how incomprehensible it is - the human fraction of Kellhus sees Kel and as the only one who can comprehend what is happening, is the consciousness/soul that comes to the fore, because the godthing sees nothing. Seemingly Kellhus's Dunyain faculties are a bit off line with the switch, with the stammering and stupid question and the chorae lock gets turned off with the driving out, it seems. So a skin spy manages to actually win and chorae him. Also the text seems to say Kellhus sees himself as a Ciphrang in the inverse fire - he swoops to feed, he is not fodder. Perhaps someone will summon Kellhus with the Daimos? >:)

[Damelon]

4 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Aye, I finished. I feel bad...

Not sure if the first page question was already resolved, but I think they didn't put chorae on the sarcophagi because it was being used to lure the ordeal out of Golgoterath and be exposed. If it had chorae in it sorcerers watching would all go 'Hey, why does Kellhus seem like he's several dozen chorae...that's odd!' 

That's not a bad point, Callan. There has been *some* discussion about this scene.

[jurble]

8 hours ago, Callan S. said:

I think Mimaras surviving baby will be twin souled, like Kelmomas had two souls after his twin died. And with it, could not be spotted by the godthings. Also seems confirmed when Mimara looks at her belly with the judging eye and the eye is described as struck blind. Maybe all other judging eye mothers only ever had one child and rarer twins weren't documented? In fact, it seemed a bit of a blunt statement in the text, for a change. Instead of yet another sentence that isn't quite fini....

 

Twin-souling doesn't lead to God-Blindness.  Ancient Celmomas was supposedly twin-souled and the Gods weren't blind to him.  The Gods can't see Kelmomas because he's the No-God.  Moreover, being 'struck blind' and the state of the Gods being blind to Kelmomas aren't the same - to be struck blind you have to be aware of your blindness, whereas the Gods' blindness to Kelmomas is their complete unawareness.   The common interpretation is that Mimara is struck blind by the holy brightness of her child not by her Judging Eye turning off.

Further, the Judging Eye can see the No-God.  This doubly indicates that we shouldn't interpret the 'struck blind' statement as being analogous to Kelmomas' state, since his state is due to his eternal status as the No-God.

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Twin-souling doesn't lead to God-Blindness.  Ancient Celmomas was supposedly twin-souled and the Gods weren't blind to him.  The Gods can't see Kelmomas because he's the No-God.  Moreover, being 'struck blind' and the state of the Gods being blind to Kelmomas aren't the same - to be struck blind you have to be aware of your blindness, whereas the Gods' blindness to Kelmomas is their complete unawareness.   The common interpretation is that Mimara is struck blind by the holy brightness of her child not by her Judging Eye turning off.

Further, the Judging Eye can see the No-God.  This doubly indicates that we shouldn't interpret the 'struck blind' statement as being analogous to Kelmomas' state, since his state is due to his eternal status as the No-God.

Which suggests that the existence of the gods is what encompasses the eschaton, but the god-of-gods (or whatever is behind the judging eye) stands outside the eschaton like the no god does.

So this series then all comprises and inverts the "disenchantment of the world" in the classic fantasy trope-ness by enacting the apocalypse of the gods (not of the souled).  

In other words, rather than gods bringing apocalypse to the world, the souled are bringing apocalypse to 'the outside'. 

What might be rather ironic about all of this is that is Kellhus did become a god in the outside, he did so literally at the cusp of the eschaton and is thus doomed to perish in the coming apocalypse anyway.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

I think maybe Kosoter was one of the Ciphring Kellhus summoned at Ark assault?

[Dez]

So my impression of the book has been very positive.

I think he stuck the landing. If Bakker decided to hang it up, I would consider TUC a satisfying conclusion to the overall series from a plot perspective. But even if we knew nothing about Bakker’s intention to continue the series with one more segment, I think TUC deliberately reads as not being quite the end of the saga. Because of that, I wasn’t bothered at all by the fact that Bakker punted on some built up mysteries. For instance, I would have liked to know more about Akka’s dreams. But as Akka is clearly alive at the end of TUC it makes perfect sense that this would be held over for later.

One thing that struck me as disappointing was Sorweel’s arc. I get what he was going for and see its plot purpose, but I just felt like Sorweel’s transition from a true Believer to Yatwer’s own came off as both abrupt and unclear. I think Bakker’s tendency to write too vaguely hurt him again here. I understand why the full White Luck Warrior point of view is written the way it is and I was fine with Sorweel’s POV eventually becoming like that. But I think he turned up the volume on the White Luck effect too quickly for the reader to fully understand why Sorweel was transitioning as he did. Was it seeing what the Ordeal had become in their absence, the probable rape by Meat crazed Zsoronga, Serwa’s turning Zsoronga in for execution or a combination of the three? Or was becoming the WLW not a voluntary thingl? I feel like we didn’t spend enough time with Sorweel to tell.