The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD II

[Darth Richard II]

Well, does he still post in here? I thought they all fled to that other place.

[Hello World]

Madness would probably know more than I do about that. Hey, Madness, can you post here asking Bakkerfans to comment on his teasers?

Oh, wait... 

[redeagl]

Aaaaand I have liked TAE as much as I could.What Bakker said ( except the Inrau question. That had an ultra weird answer.) only solidified it more. It may not quite be PoN level, but it is the next best thing. People actually believed they will get answers for everything in TUC?  Lmao. What ever Bakker, MG and Madness said, what did you think the third series was for?  A cooking guide? 

[redeagl]

33 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Madness would probably know more than I do about that. Hey, Madness, can you post here asking Bakkerfans to comment on his teasers?

Oh, wait... 

I asked. The Yimaleti teaser needs no explanation. Lord Harapior calls Möenghus Younger his son in a flashback in the first Sorweel- Serwa- Moe chapter. The Angel descending could be many things. The other two ( The Witnessing one and the Dreams) are personal theories from him.

[Darth Richard II]

He used personal theories to advertise a book? That's not good business practice.

[redeagl]

1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

I think it was said that his arc was done? And that might be alluding to how he became possessed. If you get possessed full on, of course your arc is done.

I believe he also said something along the lines of " I didn't intend the scene to be ambiguous" and that he is dead.

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Aaaaand I have liked TAE as much as I could.What Bakker said ( except the Inrau question. That had an ultra weird answer.) only solidified it more. It may not quite be PoN level, but it is the next best thing. People actually believed they will get answers for everything in TUC?  Lmao. What ever Bakker, MG and Madness said, what did you think the third series was for?  A cooking guide? 

I think it's more that they all said this would be a define conclusion that he had planned all along and that he would be perfectly happy ending it here. Also it doesn't help when Bakker himself admits he has no idea what he's doing.

[unJon]

I'm still so lost. What Bakker said makes no sense. It's not even consistent. I need to reread the AMA. Are we super sure he said he didn't know Ajokli possessed him? Or is it only that he didn't realize Ajokli would be in "control" once they got to Golgoterrath?

[Hello World]

Thanks, I would comment on whether those were the best choices for teasers or whether it was a good idea to tease his own theories instead of the text but I don't want him to feel like he's being attacked like last year and it's not that important.

[Darth Richard II]

5 minutes ago, unJon said:

I'm still so lost. What Bakker said makes no sense. It's not even consistent. I need to reread the AMA. Are we super sure he said he didn't know Ajokli possessed him? Or is it only that he didn't realize Ajokli would be in "control" once they got to Golgoterrath?

Yeah I'm more confused then ever. Someone with more time and energy then me should compile all the Q&As maybe/

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Aaaaand I have liked TAE as much as I could.What Bakker said ( except the Inrau question. That had an ultra weird answer.) only solidified it more. It may not quite be PoN level, but it is the next best thing. People actually believed they will get answers for everything in TUC?  Lmao. What ever Bakker, MG and Madness said, what did you think the third series was for?  A cooking guide? 

I don't think this is a reasonable characterization of people's annoyances.

Some people are annoyed that Bakker says things are deliberately ambiguous and that this will not change. That this is Bakker's style, and that he is explicitly writing this way to discomfort the reader. The interpretation here is that there are never, ever going to be actual answers to a number of things - not in this third series, not in other talks, no where. And that is by design.

Some people are annoyed that Bakker's revelations about Ajokli possessing Kellhus and Kellhus simply making mistake after mistake and very little of it being actually important makes a lot of the series redundant and weak. 

Some people are annoyed by the revelation that the third series really isn't plotted yet and there is no clear end point. That the answers may not have anything to do with what happened in PoN or TAE because they still haven't been invented yet. This points to a BSG or Lost like interpretation where the series really never had a strict endgame, and things are being made up as they go along. 

And yes, some people are annoyed that things are if anything more unclear after TAE ended. 

5 minutes ago, unJon said:

I'm still so lost. What Bakker said makes no sense. It's not even consistent. I need to reread the AMA. Are we super sure he said he didn't know Ajokli possessed him? Or is it only that he didn't realize Ajokli would be in "control" once they got to Golgoterrath?

One answer from Reddit:

Quote

Darkness has been claiming more and more of Kellhus as the Great Ordeal advanced. Ajokli was his destination, and the closer he came, the more he began to resemble him, finally becoming him in the Golden Room.

Another answer:

Quote

 

Kellhus became less Kellhus and more Ajokli the nearer he came to Golgotterath. He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted.

Because he's under spiritual duress, while planning to assault the most dread fortress that ever existed.

 

From those two, the most reasonable conclusion is that Kellhus was unaware and not expecting to be subsumed by Ajokli. 

[Kalbear]

Specifically, I think this answer is the one that bothers a lot of people:

 

Quote

 

I'm not sure I get your use of deus ex machina, since this refers to saving the day via arbitrary plot mechanisms. This is bad because it's lazy. The way you use it, it applies to all true-crime fiction, or any form of writing lacking conventional narrative 'closure,' doesn't it? And what's lazy about intentionally delivering readers to points that deny stable interpretation? It's hard bloody work, let me tell you!

Could it be you possess narrative instincts, the way we all do, that balk at the absence of closure? Some find it more difficult than others. And all this means is that you viscerally feel the problem of meaning more keenly than most.

The question is what do you do next. Do you rationalize, chalk your narrative frustration up to my failure, or do you open yourself up to a new kind of narrative experience. Either I've failed you, or I've shown you a new way to experience meaning. Although I totally understand why people opt for the first, I just don't see what they gain from it.

 

 

The lack of closure is not a bug, nor is it an intended second of three parts; it is a feature, one that is supposed to make you uncomfortable and find your own meaning. That other things (such as Kellhus being possessed) were ambiguous but not intended to be so makes it even worse; it's hard to disambiguate between things that are supposed to be clear but aren't, things that are not supposed to be clear but seem to be (like Kellhus 'planning' to use Ajokli in the Golden Room), and things that are delliberately unclear and are meant to not have meaning. 

[Darth Richard II]

Ugh, that reminds me so much of when a movie bombs and the filmmakers/studio blame the audience for not "getting it". That's bullshit, plain and simple.

 

Edit1: So, yes, you did fail, Mr Baker, you failed hard. You get an F.

Edit2: I should stop reading these for a while, they're making me want to dump my books.

 

[JGP]

Yah... after perusing this thread I don't regret my decision to drop this series after The Great Ordeal.

[Hello World]

Yeah that comment was a straw man at best. Bakker said many times that most of the burning questions would get answered in the Unholy Consult. A lot of the major questions did not get addressed at all (if not most) or the answers we got were outright silly (like Achamian's fidelity). And then he says on TSA that he never intended to resolve the narrative mysteries that he created, he was going for uncertainty instead. 

Now that I think about it, did this book even answer any of the burning questions that he said it would answer? Sure, we got that Ajokli was involved with Kellhus somehow, but that's pretty much it.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, JEORDHl said:

Yah... after perusing this thread I don't regret my decision to drop this series after The Great Ordeal.

I just mentioned you! Heh. And yes, DO NOT READ THIS. It will make you so very angry. It absolutely out-Olymposed Olympos. And then Bakker made it even worse by talking!

[redeagl]

29 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

He used personal theories to advertise a book? That's not good business practice.

It didn't really bug me.It's not exactly the way I would have personally used but again, I didn't mind much.

30 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think it's more that they all said this would be a define conclusion that he had planned all along and that he would be perfectly happy ending it here. Also it doesn't help when Bakker himself admits he has no idea what he's doing.

I never really bought into what Bakker said. In my mind, the Apocalypse MUST happen, and it won't fit into one book. I just took it as if TUC is a major point in the series.And from what I saw in the AMAs, it appears to me that either: 1- Bakker's comment was very misunderstood. 2- Bakker is doing his thing again and is trolling

 

[Darth Richard II]

Authors trolling their readers/fans is not a good way to get your third series published.

[JGP]

17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I just mentioned you! Heh. And yes, DO NOT READ THIS. It will make you so very angry. It absolutely out-Olymposed Olympos. And then Bakker made it even worse by talking!

whiskey. tango. foxtrot.

Except the Bakker talking thing, which is marginally worse than the Bakker writing thing. Alas a lack. 

[Darth Richard II]

19 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Yeah that comment was a straw man at best. Bakker said many times that most of the burning questions would get answered in the Unholy Consult. A lot of the major questions did not get addressed at all (if not most) or the answers we got were outright silly (like Achamian's fidelity). And then he says on TSA that he never intended to resolve the narrative mysteries that he created, he was going for uncertainty instead. 

Now that I think about it, did this book even answer any of the burning questions that he said it would answer? Sure, we got that Ajokli was involved with Kellhus somehow, but that's pretty much it.

Bolding mine, THATS what really pisses me off. After Bakker going on for YEARS about how the end of the second series will finally answer all if not most our questions and will be a fitting end to the entire saga and then getting...nothing. And finding out the answer to all those questions was pretty much I DUNNO ITS A MYSTERY LOL just makes me want to punch a baby. At this point I'd almost prefer it to end up being a fucking computer simulation, at least then it might make SOME sense.