The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD II

[Werthead]

As The Unholy Consult is now out in the wild in the UK and some locations, but not the USA, please feel free to discuss the novel in full in this thread.

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS FOR THE UNHOLY CONSULT INCLUDING THE ENDING IN THIS THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE SPOILED OR DISCUSS THE BOOK AFTER FINISHING IT.

For the protection of some of our posters, please use Spoiler Tags on Page 1 of the thread only. After that, feel free to go at it.

[Happy Ent]

Question: Why did

Spoiler

the Dunsult

not festoon 

Spoiler

the Carapace with new Chorae

after they  

Spoiler

inserted Kelmo into the Carapace,

who is, after all, quite unaffected by these things

Spoiler

in contrast to his father, whose expected occupancy of the Carapace motivated their removal.

After all, at the moment in question, there are hundreds of high-level mages about. Are they really so sure of their estimates of the range of magic missiles? Megagnosis and all?

[Sheep the Evicted]

So my favourite part of these threads is everyone's initial impressions - I was actually quite looking forward to yours. So tell us Treefather; WHAT DID YOU SEE ?

[Sheep the Evicted]

 

Spoiler

23 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Couple of other people mentioned this, but what was the point of the demon?  It seems like its escape is meant to be significant but nothing seems to come of it and as a result, after its very effective buildup, vile angel disappears in an anticlimax.

So on my reread I noticed that the deamon was pleased to finally be fighting a soul - i assumed it was Mek - but then after defeating the Nonmen it couldn't find his soul afterall. Seeing as no one mentioned it I assumed it was just a Synthese or something we have seen before. If its not then the Consult have soul-swapping shenanigans of their own.

The problem is I have only read these books once so I don't really know which details amount to significant new information and which details are cool tidbits. But yeah when reading that scene for the first time it really did seem to me like Bakker was trying to tell me something.

 

23 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The description of Ark totally made it feel like an evil Culture Mind.

Definitely, which is why I'm so excited for the Dunyain to turn it back on. We can finally see them served a dose of their own medicine. Though I know its most likely just wishful thinking. I also think Progenitors might be backed up on a colossal hardrive somewhere on the ship -  its certainly the first thing we would do if we knew damnation was real. Thats assuming that consciousness is "the soul" and they figured out how to manipulate it.  Though  again  at their tech-level putting The Disk in a physical location no matter how invulnerable probably isn't safe enough. Perhaps they are actually IN the Nail of Heaven - assuming the theory that its a stable wormhole is true - safe from any random asteroid strikes or solar flares. I think we can be confident that they have to be somewhere though  - they built the Inchoroi to  close the Outside not to bust them out of hell.

 

Also it occurred to me that ofcourse there IS a waithi doll en-route to rescue HeadKell - the second deamon! Once it takes care of business in Zeum im assuming it returns to its master. And seeing as the other head was the God of Hate himself im expecting it to be pretty potent.

 

 

 

[PapushiSun]

2 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Question: Why did

  Hide contents

the Dunsult

not festoon 

  Hide contents

the Carapace with new Chorae

after they  

  Hide contents

inserted Kelmo into the Carapace,

who is, after all, quite unaffected by these things

  Hide contents

in contrast to his father, whose expected occupancy of the Carapace motivated their removal.

After all, at the moment in question, there are hundreds of high-level mages about. Are they really so sure of their estimates of the range of magic missiles? Megagnosis and all?

The carapace of the first No-God had chorae embedded in it, not merely festooned over it. I think the Dunsult simply didn't have the time to create a new carapace embedded with chorae.

[jurble]

8 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Question: Why did

  Hide contents

the Dunsult

not festoon 

  Hide contents

the Carapace with new Chorae

after they  

  Hide contents

inserted Kelmo into the Carapace,

who is, after all, quite unaffected by these things

  Hide contents

in contrast to his father, whose expected occupancy of the Carapace motivated their removal.

After all, at the moment in question, there are hundreds of high-level mages about. Are they really so sure of their estimates of the range of magic missiles? Megagnosis and all?

Once the No-God activates, I believe it is uncontrollable.  It basically does what it wants.  Including not sitting around for remodeling.

 

 

Also I noticed something interesting skimming through the book

 

Quote

bone. The nephew of the famous Gothyelk fell gouting blood...then death came spiralling down ... Bore him wailing to the fire.

Hoga Hogrim dies and goes to hell, but immediately after

Quote

how Thane Sosering Rauchurl was felled from the heights of Gwergiruh....

Death came spiralling down ... Bore him wondering to the brace of Gilgaöl.

Sosering Rauchurl ends up in heaven, somehow. 

[jurble]

7 hours ago, Sheep the Evicted said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

So on my reread I noticed that the deamon was pleased to finally be fighting a soul - i assumed it was Mek - but then after defeating the Nonmen it couldn't find his soul afterall. Seeing as no one mentioned it I assumed it was just a Synthese or something we have seen before. If its not then the Consult have soul-swapping shenanigans of their own.

The problem is I have only read these books once so I don't really know which details amount to significant new information and which details are cool tidbits. But yeah when reading that scene for the first time it really did seem to me like Bakker was trying to tell me something.

 

Definitely, which is why I'm so excited for the Dunyain to turn it back on. We can finally see them served a dose of their own medicine. Though I know its most likely just wishful thinking. I also think Progenitors might be backed up on a colossal hardrive somewhere on the ship -  its certainly the first thing we would do if we knew damnation was real. Thats assuming that consciousness is "the soul" and they figured out how to manipulate it.  Though  again  at their tech-level putting The Disk in a physical location no matter how invulnerable probably isn't safe enough. Perhaps they are actually IN the Nail of Heaven - assuming the theory that its a stable wormhole is true - safe from any random asteroid strikes or solar flares. I think we can be confident that they have to be somewhere though  - they built the Inchoroi to  close the Outside not to bust them out of hell.

 

Also it occurred to me that ofcourse there IS a waithi doll en-route to rescue HeadKell - the second deamon! Once it takes care of business in Zeum im assuming it returns to its master. And seeing as the other head was the God of Hate himself im expecting it to be pretty potent.

 

 

 

I noticed the demon attacking the Nonman and unable to find his soul as well, and couldn't make any sense of it.  It was definitely a Nonman, as it was described as having porcelain skin.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Ajûrbkli said:

 

  Hide contents

I noticed the demon attacking the Nonman and unable to find his soul as well, and couldn't make any sense of it.  It was definitely a Nonman, as it was described as having porcelain skin.

 

Oh, interesting. That may tie in with a major revelation elsewhere:

Cet'ingira says that the Nonman attempt to use oblivion to escape damnation failed and all the Nonmen are damned forever. Maybe he was lying and a few Nonmen have figured out how to do it?

[jurble]

It wouldn't surprise me.  Every faction seems to be wrong, but no faction seems to be entirely wrong in its understanding of the series metaphysics.  Although, Oinaral said the paths to oblivion were treacherous and few could actually make it, so his understanding of oblivion seems reasonable.  The Consult could well believe oblivion is a possibility, just that the odds are so low that very few would succeed and thus not make it worth the risk?

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

5 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

 

  Hide contents

I noticed the demon attacking the Nonman and unable to find his soul as well, and couldn't make any sense of it.  It was definitely a Nonman, as it was described as having porcelain skin.

 

I see one of two options the first most likely than the second. Because Ark is the biggest Topos on Earwa, thus the line between the world and the Outside is thin, the soul went straight hell. Or, though unlikely and I think proven to be false, his soul found oblivion.

[Darth Richard II]

13 hours ago, Sheep the Evicted said:

So my favourite part of these threads is everyone's initial impressions - I was actually quite looking forward to yours. So tell us Treefather; WHAT DID YOU SEE ?

Ha, I know right? I like the ones on sites other than this and that...other..forum who clearly don't follow any of the online theory shenanigans or know that a third series is(maybe?) planned. There reactions to the ending are hilarious.

[unJon]

So on the speculation for the title of the third series:

 

Spoiler

It sounds like people here and at TSA are proposing that it will be called The Second Apocalypse. That doesn't make sense to me. Bakker has referred to the overall series of series as The Second Apocalypse from the beginning. Given that, why would it suddenly be a huge spoiler such that it needs to be The Series That Shall Not Be Named? 

I think he wouldn't have referred all along to the Uber-series as TSA of the third installment would be also TSA.

Also, it doesn't fit the mold of Kel status at the start of the series. Kel is the Prince of Nothing and Kel is the Aspect Emperor. Say what you will about Bakker but he is a total Kel fanboi and the next series will be titled with Kel's status. And Kel's status is currently a huge spoiler:

1) Is he alive and swinging as a Decapitant head next to Malowobi on a salted body?

2) Is he dead and suffering eternal damnation?

3) Is he dead and kicking ass in the Outside (descending with a hunger) as the Inverse Fire showed?

i personally vote for 3 because I think Bakker tends to play it straight after all the wrong conspiracy theories we've debated over the years. But 1 is possible. 2 doesn't make logical sense to me given the Inverse Fire revelation by Kel.

 

 

 

[Werthead]

I must admit that I would quite like to see the final book called:

The Second Apocalypse Subseries III: The Second Apocalypse Book III: The Second Apocalypse

[wayward_ishroi]

Spoiler

 

Again I raise the question: The only corporeal threat to Kellhus in the story is a chorae. If I am Kellhus this is literally the first issue I would address. Nothing else matters if you get picked off by a random chorae bowman and end up as salt. A body double just like a POTUS might have would be an obvious choice given the abilities that arise with the Meta Daimos.

 

We know from Akka's post-Cil Aujas musings on what happened with Mimara and the chorae/judging eye combo in banishing Gin'yursis that the result of a chorae striking a Daimotically summoned ciphrang is salting of the corporeal form of the ciphrang. I guess we don't have a really good idea of what happens to the soul of the ciphrang. But, if I had the ability to take off my own head and put a demon head on my body, leaving my own head with my actual soul in it available to be attached to another body and recreate myself in the event of death by chorae, I for sure would. 

 

It becomes the problem of 2 x 100 lb people and one 200 lb people trying to cross a river with a boat that only holds 200 lbs.

 

Kellhus needs an extra decapitant if one is Ajokli. I have searched the text because I had a vague recollection that there were THREE decapitants at one point but I haven't been able to find any text supporting that. Regardless, Malowebi's body has a ciphrang head on it. While it may not be Kellhus's original head, I think we have enough evidence from the Amiolas and consumption of various meat that you have some bleeding of one soul into the other with this type of sorcery. I postulate that there is enough of a fraction of Kellhus' soul in the Malowebi-ciphrang currently in the Palace of Plumes to return to Kellhus and swap heads. 

 

Plus, we now have a headless Cet'ingira who received the inoculation to support another head.

 

I think we are in for a Kellhus gets his head back and puts it on Mek's body, and then gives Malowebi back his head and his body.

 

Alternatively, Malowebi manages to get his own head back on Mek's body.

 

But, Kellhus is clearly not 

Spoiler

 

in the outside, as per Ajokli's possession of Cnaiur looking for his portion at the end. This screams Kellhus is coming back. Regardless, someone's head is going on Mek's body.

 

 

[wayward_ishroi]

2 hours ago, unJon said:

So on the speculation for the title of the third series:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It sounds like people here and at TSA are proposing that it will be called The Second Apocalypse. That doesn't make sense to me. Bakker has referred to the overall series of series as The Second Apocalypse from the beginning. Given that, why would it suddenly be a huge spoiler such that it needs to be The Series That Shall Not Be Named? 

I think he wouldn't have referred all along to the Uber-series as TSA of the third installment would be also TSA.

Also, it doesn't fit the mold of Kel status at the start of the series. Kel is the Prince of Nothing and Kel is the Aspect Emperor. Say what you will about Bakker but he is a total Kel fanboi and the next series will be titled with Kel's status. And Kel's status is currently a huge spoiler:

1) Is he alive and swinging as a Decapitant head next to Malowobi on a salted body?

2) Is he dead and suffering eternal damnation?

3) Is he dead and kicking ass in the Outside (descending with a hunger) as the Inverse Fire showed?

i personally vote for 3 because I think Bakker tends to play it straight after all the wrong conspiracy theories we've debated over the years. But 1 is possible. 2 doesn't make logical sense to me given the Inverse Fire revelation by Kel.

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

I vote "The No-God"

 

In keeping with the Prince-Emperor-God theme.

 

 

[jurble]

The title of the third series is obvious

 

A Pillar of Salt

[wayward_ishroi]

28 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

The title of the third series is obvious

 

 

  Hide contents

A Pillar of Salt

 

Spoiler

Kosher, sea, or that Pink Himalayan that's on everything these days?

 

Spoiler

Oh, which reminds me... Did anyone ever speculate that Chanv might be salted demon or salted sorcerer? The parallels with Qirri aside, this seems more renewable in supply than charred Nonman

 

[wayward_ishroi]

29 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

The title of the third series is obvious

 

 

  Hide contents

A Pillar of Salt

 

Spoiler

Also possible: A tale of two Kellhuses. It was the best of times... just kidding. It's another eschaton. Times suck!

 

[jurble]

12 minutes ago, wayward_ishroi said:

 

  Hide contents

Oh, which reminds me... Did anyone ever speculate that Chanv might be salted demon or salted sorcerer? The parallels with Qirri aside, this seems more renewable in supply than charred Nonman

 

I don't think this requires spoiler tags, but we saw the kid at the end of TTT collecting salt from sorcerers before Aurang presumably raped him to death.   Others were likely doing the same in Shimeh.  Since chanv remains a mystery, it likely isn't salted sorcerer.   Especially given its origin in Jekhia.

[Hello World]

By the way, when would it be appropriate to edit the Wiki with spoilers from TUC?