The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD II

[Callan S.]

9 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Twin-souling doesn't lead to God-Blindness.  Ancient Celmomas was supposedly twin-souled and the Gods weren't blind to him.  The Gods can't see Kelmomas because he's the No-God.  Moreover, being 'struck blind' and the state of the Gods being blind to Kelmomas aren't the same - to be struck blind you have to be aware of your blindness, whereas the Gods' blindness to Kelmomas is their complete unawareness.   The common interpretation is that Mimara is struck blind by the holy brightness of her child not by her Judging Eye turning off.

Further, the Judging Eye can see the No-God.  This doubly indicates that we shouldn't interpret the 'struck blind' statement as being analogous to Kelmomas' state, since his state is due to his eternal status as the No-God.

Is there a record of godthings interacting with Celmomas?

Ajokli can't see Kelmomas when Ajokli is possessing Kellhus - Kel isn't the no god at that point. Also Kel can see through Yatwers face trick and confused the first white luck warrior by being outside of it's pre programmed design. The 'eternal status' seems a bit of a cop out, really. Why is it his eternal status? It just is?

And the thing is Mimara is aware the judging eye is struck blind. That doesn't mean the judging eye is aware it happened. The big, big moral of the story (IMO) is the arrogance of the godthings that they think they could not miss a thing. Judging without a sense of potential incompetence.

[Dez]

48 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

Is there a record of godthings interacting with Celmomas?

Ajokli can't see Kelmomas when Ajokli is possessing Kellhus - Kel isn't the no god at that point. Also Kel can see through Yatwers face trick and confused the first white luck warrior by being outside of it's pre programmed design. The 'eternal status' seems a bit of a cop out, really. Why is it his eternal status? It just is?

I think Kel has the eternal status because the No God is "doom outside of doom" as Kellhus explains while hanging out ( ) with Proyas atop the Accusatory. The No God/The Ark/Golgotterath possess an inevitability to "a Fate the gods can never see." This is an inevitability that competes with the gods' own control of eternity. In this way Kelmomas as the Subject half of the No God is the Ark's version of the White Luck Warrior in that he is always connected to all the times he is ultimately present for. 

[unJon]

So Celmomas and not Nau Catiu (sp?) was the two souled? That kills the theory that two-souled is the spark that starts the No God carapace. 

 

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, unJon said:

So Celmomas and not Nau Catiu (sp?) was the two souled? That kills the theory that two-souled is the spark that starts the No God carapace. 

 

Not really; we simply don't know if NC was or not. Or really, anything. 

Which seems like kind of a big deal for book 7, but whatev

[unJon]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Not really; we simply don't know if NC was or not. Or really, anything. 

Which seems like kind of a big deal for book 7, but whatev

I guess so, but it is reported in the books that Celmomas was two souled and not NC. Which sure doesn't technically 100% rule out NC from being two souled. But no mention that NC ever had a twin that died while reporting that Celmomas did have the dead twin, is Bayesian evidence that NC didn't have two souls. We can craft some conspiracy theory of why Celmomas would cover up the fact for NC, but not cover up the fact for himself I suppose, but we are creeping into Nerdenal territory. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, unJon said:

I guess so, but it is reported in the books that Celmomas was two souled and not NC. Which sure doesn't technically 100% rule out NC from being two souled. But no mention that NC ever had a twin that died while reporting that Celmomas did have the dead twin, is Bayesian evidence that NC didn't have two souls. We can craft some conspiracy theory of why Celmomas would cover up the fact for NC, but not cover up the fact for himself I suppose, but we are creeping into Nerdenal territory. 

It was reported that Celmomas was two-souled? Huh. 

Honestly, at this point I'd be not that surprised to learn that Bakker messed up and NC was the one that was supposed to be two-souled and he just messed up. I'm hard pressed to understand why Akka would dream of NC working as the No-God AND also NC being the son of Seswatha otherwise. Why like about the latter but be truthful about so many other things, like the form of Shae or NC being the actual No-God? In order to do that, whoever is sending the dreams has to actually have seen the Golden Room and Shae or have pretty strong knowledge; what is the impetus to lie about the parentage?

I'm going to guess that ultimately it won't matter that much at the end of the day. 

[unJon]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It was reported that Celmomas was two-souled? Huh. 

Honestly, at this point I'd be not that surprised to learn that Bakker messed up and NC was the one that was supposed to be two-souled and he just messed up. I'm hard pressed to understand why Akka would dream of NC working as the No-God AND also NC being the son of Seswatha otherwise. Why like about the latter but be truthful about so many other things, like the form of Shae or NC being the actual No-God? In order to do that, whoever is sending the dreams has to actually have seen the Golden Room and Shae or have pretty strong knowledge; what is the impetus to lie about the parentage?

I'm going to guess that ultimately it won't matter that much at the end of the day. 

Maybe I have it wrong between Celmomas and NC? I was basing off a poster upthread and haven't checked the books. One of them was mentioned in the books as two souled. 

 

As to your questions, I agree with them all. And likewise have no idea what to make of the middle. 

[unJon]

It's in TTT in The Sagas that Esmi reads. At location 3594 (37%) on my kindle. 

[jurble]

Quote

 

The birth of Celmomas II had been as ill-starred as any birth could be: he was the twin of a stillborn brother, named Huörmomas. And the way the poet used this macabre image to explain the High King’s flint-hearted brilliance made her inexplicably anxious. Huörmomas, the poet insisted, ever stalked his brother’s side, chilling his heart even as he quickened his intellect:

 

is the quote from TTT.

[Dez]

I think its just as likely the significance of the two souled thing is in something other than jump starting the Carapace. With how scarce details on Celmomas and NC are, I doubt RSB screwed something up. We're talking about a few paragraphs of backstory at most. 

Kelmomas himself seems to have been a spontaneous Plan B. I guess you can never tell with Dunyain, but even they seemed frozen in Kellhus's death scene. You'd think if it was something they had figured out about needing a two souled they would have had more control over their true play. The way its described I think they arrived at the conclusion that Kel was the one they were looking for in that moment and not before. 

 

[jurble]

2 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Is there a record of godthings interacting with Celmomas?

 

Yes, we get his death from his point of view where Gilgaol shows him Kellhus.

[unJon]

4 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Yes, we get his death from his point of view where Gilgaol shows him Kellhus.

I'm now assuming that was Ajokli not Gilgaol. 

[PapushiSun]

Hey Kalbear can you help me find this quote in the books?

Quote

Any wound, save the one that is mortal.

 

[Kalbear]

45 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

Hey Kalbear can you help me find this quote in the books?

 

Do you have any idea what book it might be from? 

2 hours ago, Dez said:

I think its just as likely the significance of the two souled thing is in something other than jump starting the Carapace. With how scarce details on Celmomas and NC are, I doubt RSB screwed something up. We're talking about a few paragraphs of backstory at most. 

RSB has been pretty horribly inconsistent in the details of his backstory, changing actual people, sexes, brothers and sisters and the like. He's done it in both the glossary and in the actual book. And the more it's about something like backstory, the more likely it is that it got messed up; more recent things tend to be okay. 

2 hours ago, Dez said:

Kelmomas himself seems to have been a spontaneous Plan B. I guess you can never tell with Dunyain, but even they seemed frozen in Kellhus's death scene. You'd think if it was something they had figured out about needing a two souled they would have had more control over their true play. The way its described I think they arrived at the conclusion that Kel was the one they were looking for in that moment and not before. 

That doesn't explain why they had an army of chorae wielding skin-spies at the ready, nor does it explain why they'd even bother taking Kelmomas to that room and letting him loose 'just in case'. 

My interpretation is that they believed for whatever reason that they needed an Anasurimbor, but they weren't sure which one. They thought it likely it would be Kellhus, but could not be totally sure. This is why they were following Mimara - because Mimara was an Anasurimbor too. They also knew they needed to take Kellhus out of the picture. They were fine with him dying (the nuke at Dagliash doesn't make sense otherwise, as it would have killed him), they were fine with him converting via the Inverse Fire, they were fine with him being the No-God - and they were fine with salting him. 

They took Kelmomas as an easily abducted Anasurimbor to use as a replacement. They didn't anticipate that Kellhus would beat them via Ajokli - while they knew of Hell and Ajokli, they didn't understand how close they were to hell or Ajokli's power, and they really didn't anticipate Kellhus making a deal with the Pit. They thought they'd be able to kill Kellhus by chorae and magic if needed. Kelmomas telling them that the gods don't see him was a surprise. 

[Callan S.]

3 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Yes, we get his death from his point of view where Gilgaol shows him Kellhus.

The prophesy scene? I'm not sure prophesy is attributed to anything, AFAICT? Is there a particular passage for that? If I were to extend on a crackpot, perhaps being two souled also sometimes lets you see past the gods shoulder, between gods and see the future.

[Callan S.]

Further I have a theory I like that the carapace needs a twin soul to turn subject to object. With a regular soul the godthingss detect the death and pluck away the soul, snatching it from the machinations of the tekne. Death doesn't so much come swirling down as the soul is hovered upward. But with the invisible two soul, the gods don't pluckfor blindness and instead the tekne does, like managing to steal an access key card from an employee by copying it and then get into the building. All the other cards get whipped away, but a scant few are not noticed.

• Quote

  Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera: Son of Anasûrimbor Omindalea and the Nonman Jiricet. Called Two-Heart.

  Yes, I think the shenanigans begin here.

[PapushiSun]

5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Do you have any idea what book it might be from? 

No, I just keep seeing it quoted by other people but I can't find the source.

[Consigliere]

31 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

No, I just keep seeing it quoted by other people but I can't find the source.

Perhaps ask the people quoting it to provide a source? I've done a search of all 7 books and that quote does not appear in any of the novels.

[.H.]

1 hour ago, PapushiSun said:

No, I just keep seeing it quoted by other people but I can't find the source.

I believe Walter misquoted the following line from TJE (Chapter 9):

Quote

"All of the woe the world has to offer, if need be. So long as we overcome the only one that is fatal."

 

[Caligula_K3]

Well, I finished it. There were parts I enjoyed- the Proyas-Khellus conversation, the Mimara and Esmenet reunion, the Dunsult reveal, the Khellus motivation reveal, and the return of the No God. But I don't think it's a good book, even if it isn't quite as bad as The Great Ordeal. 

I haven't read through both threads all the way through, but from what I have read, a lot of people have had similar thoughts to me. Too much, way too much of the Ordeal-turned-Sranc. Characters and plot arcs that are completely pointless or repetitive (Achamian, Mimara, Sorweel, and especially Cnaiur come to mind). The Consult being a complete anti-climax. The awe-droppingly awful fight against the dragon. And the fact that after four books that are each too long, far too little makes sense and far too little has been revealed.

If those were the books only flaws, I'd probably keep reading Bakker and continue on to the next series. But what I can't get past is his writing. His prose has become simply bad. It's unclear, pretentious, purple, repetitive, and constantly tells and never shows. Scenes that could have been powerful are completely undercut by the obsession he has with using the same overwrought phrases over and over again: "these were the wages he's earned! For this he'd thrown his number sticks! He fairly screamed for anger." Then there's the italics, which are never-ending and irritating. And I can't say how tired I was of characters looking at the ark and saying: "Golgotterath! Golgotterath. This was Golgotterath! A place so evil you could feel the evil around it. Golgotterath! Evil." Whatever the intention of lines like these, they did nothing to evoke anything in me- horror, evil, awe, anything. 

So I think I'm pretty done with Bakker. It's too bad, because the world he's built is still interesting, and I'm invested in some of the characters and the overall plot. I've been anticipating the No-God resurrection for twelve years now. But the direction Bakker has been going in is clearly one that I just can't enjoy, and this whole Aspect-emperor series is a pretty big disappointment for me after The Prince of Nothing. I really hope he rebounds in the next series, but I don't think I can justify sticking around to find out.