Jon will get wightified, a theory by Lothar Frey

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, Romaine3 said:

@kissdbyfire

I do have a premonition that Winds is on its way sooner rather than later. I guess that is what sparked my decision to hop back into the forum discussions.

Me too 

in general:

Yeah, the generic Jon hate threads are boring and make no sense. If people really  think the the character the author says is the most "honorable" is going to die and fade away in the next book, they are in for a severe disappointment. 

I do hope this idea is not based on the talkie box abomination, because that has no business here. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Romaine3 said:

@kissdbyfire I go through periods where I'm not always paying attention to the forum like I should. People are always hating on the good characters in the novels though.

As a good friend used to say, you can't argue people's taste, only feel sorry for them!

 

Just now, Romaine3 said:

I really wanted to say Wight privilege though, it's funny!

It's very funny actually! 

Just now, Romaine3 said:

I do have a premonition that Winds is on its way sooner rather than later. I guess that is what sparked my decision to hop back into the forum discussions.

From your lips to the OG's ears! 

[Romaine3]

@kissdbyfire in the past, grrm and I have always been on the same page... I cannot think of any reasons why that would change now

guess we are just going to have to wait and see

[norwaywolf123]

Can wights make babies? Are wights fertile? Maybe it depends on the stage of wightification?

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 7/29/2017 at 9:43 AM, Wm Portnoy said:

This is one of Bran's dreams from aGoT:

"Finally he looked north.  He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

1. pale, hard skin
2. fading memory
3. no warmth
4. "sleeping"

Those are clues that he is a wight.  I will admit that clues are not proof but GM never gives us outright proof.  I will support Lothar's proposal for now.

Those are very good clues.  Those signs indicate rigor mortis, dying, etc.  Wolfboy isn't taking an afternoon nap.  

[The Commentator]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 11:52 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Those are very good clues.  Those signs indicate rigor mortis, dying, etc.  Wolfboy isn't taking an afternoon nap.  

"the memory of all warmth fled from his skin" 

That one can come from shock from the loss of too much blood.  Jon was leaking blood as fast as an oil tanker that hit the rocks is leaking oil.  So unless blood transfusion comes into fashion in the next ten seconds that boy will be dried jerky within minutes.  He'll be pale as a ghost and very dead. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Jon was already feeling or lacking the feeling from the bleeding.  The boys did a good job and punctured him well.  

The unresponsiveness from his sword hand.  Perhaps Bowen's knives hit the nerves and damaged the signal to his hand.  But that's minor considering the mortal wounds he took. 

On 9/6/2017 at 11:40 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

"the memory of all warmth fled from his skin" 

That one can come from shock from the loss of too much blood.  Jon was leaking blood as fast as an oil tanker that hit the rocks is leaking oil.  So unless blood transfusion comes into fashion in the next ten seconds that boy will be dried jerky within minutes.  He'll be pale as a ghost and very dead. 

yes

[Wolf's Bane]

On 9/4/2017 at 11:52 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Wolfboy isn't taking an afternoon nap.  

No he ain't.  Heheh.

This is an interesting discussion.  I wouldn't count on George bringing him back whole.  I think he comes back in the form of what Varamyr Sixskins called second life.  He lives on as an animal.  My hope, Jon comes back as a donkey, mule, or ass.  But he will probably come back as a big direwolf.  The alternative to direwolf, he comes back as an Ice Wight.

[Moiraine Sedai]

32 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

No he ain't.  Heheh.

This is an interesting discussion.  I wouldn't count on George bringing him back whole.  I think he comes back in the form of what Varamyr Sixskins called second life.  He lives on as an animal.  My hope, Jon comes back as a donkey, mule, or ass.  But he will probably come back as a big direwolf.  The alternative to direwolf, he comes back as an Ice Wight.

Ice wight.  And I don't think he can ever be a normal man again after that.  He won't sit on the iron throne.

[Springwatch]

I'm not so certain any more. I'm starting to think this 'sleeping' is something like cryogenic preservation, and it will happen to more characters than Jon. The Stark sisters - Sansa especially - seem to have portents of going to 'sleep', and waking just as dawn breaks. And there are references to ghosts, and death-like features (eg white eyes) that apply to multiple characters. They can't all be dead!

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 9/8/2017 at 5:36 PM, Springwatch said:

I'm not so certain any more. I'm starting to think this 'sleeping' is something like cryogenic preservation, and it will happen to more characters than Jon. The Stark sisters - Sansa especially - seem to have portents of going to 'sleep', and waking just as dawn breaks. And there are references to ghosts, and death-like features (eg white eyes) that apply to multiple characters. They can't all be dead!

I don't think GM will allow Jon to cheat death.  GM went to a lot of trouble to set up what happened to Jon and Jon really brought it down on himself.  I would hate to see Jon come back to life as a human.  He shouldn't get another chance. 

[King Ned Stark]

Do people really think that the character development of Jon Snow over 5 books, dozens of chapters, hundreds of pages will end so ignominiously?  What would be the point?

I assume that most of the Jon hate comes from Dany fans?  Which I don't particularly understand, as I like them both.  But I don't try to figure out what has or will happen by what I want to happen.

Was Dany surviving Drogo's pyre cheap, or bad writing?  She survived because she is special, and has an important role to play in the narrative, just as she'll survive the drothraki horde.  Jon will survive his betrayal, because unlike Beric or Catelyn, he too is special and has an important role to play.  They both have roles in the upcoming books; good, bad, or otherwise.

[Ice Queen]

23 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Do people really think that the character development of Jon Snow over 5 books, dozens of chapters, hundreds of pages will end so ignominiously?  What would be the point?

I assume that most of the Jon hate comes from Dany fans?  Which I don't particularly understand, as I like them both.  But I don't try to figure out what has or will happen by what I want to happen.

Was Dany surviving Drogo's pyre cheap, or bad writing?  She survived because she is special, and has an important role to play in the narrative, just as she'll survive the drothraki horde.  Jon will survive his betrayal, because unlike Beric or Catelyn, he too is special and has an important role to play.  They both have roles in the upcoming books; good, bad, or otherwise.

I disagree. She didn't survive because she was special. It was a one-off magic trick that won't be repeated. It was, according to Martin, a result of the blood magic she invoked during the ritual to save Drogo. If she tries that stunt again, she will die. 

Targaryens are not, I repeat NOT, immune to fire. 

I don't think the idea of one of the Starks (Jon or Bran) going full Team White Walker is that preposterous. Dany is, obviously, a dragon. Fire made flesh. Who's the representative for the ice side? There has to be one and it has to be a Stark. We don't know that much about the Others, but I really don't think they're mindless zombies, nor are they evil. Everyone gets all bent out of shape like the Starks are paragons of virtue or something. They are no such thing, and they are intimately connected with ice and ice symbolism going back to the Long Night (if not before). Ice and fire are mirror images, so what goes for one side has to go to for the other. The dragons have Dany. Who do the Others have? 

The thought of Jon being resurrected by Melisandre makes me sick. He is of the North and the old gods. It's just wrong on so many levels. 

 

[King Ned Stark]

38 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

I disagree. She didn't survive because she was special. It was a one-off magic trick that won't be repeated. It was, according to Martin, a result of the blood magic she invoked during the ritual to save Drogo. If she tries that stunt again, she will die. 

Targaryens are not, I repeat NOT, immune to fire. 

I don't think the idea of one of the Starks (Jon or Bran) going full Team White Walker is that preposterous. Dany is, obviously, a dragon. Fire made flesh. Who's the representative for the ice side? There has to be one and it has to be a Stark. We don't know that much about the Others, but I really don't think they're mindless zombies, nor are they evil. Everyone gets all bent out of shape like the Starks are paragons of virtue or something. They are no such thing, and they are intimately connected with ice and ice symbolism going back to the Long Night (if not before). Ice and fire are mirror images, so what goes for one side has to go to for the other. The dragons have Dany. Who do the Others have? 

The thought of Jon being resurrected by Melisandre makes me sick. He is of the North and the old gods. It's just wrong on so many levels. 

 

I know Dany is not immune to fire.  She is not special as in superhuman, she is special as in for the narrative, an important character in the book.  So is Jon.

A young girl walked into a blazing inferno and not only survived but gave birth to 3 dragons through some kind of hazy blood magic.  Is Jon surviving being stabbed 4 or 5 times any more far-fetched than that?  Jon will survive because he needs to survive for now.

It doesn't have to necessarily be Mel, Val is at the wall, and Jon is a skinchanger/warg.  Why else have the Varamyr chapter?

Of course this is all just my interpretation, but Jon and Dany are the two main characters, or the closest thing we got to it, which doesn't mean they'll both end up as good guys, on the same team, or in love.  However, Dany did something miraculous in the eyes of many, and gained a large following because of it; IMHO, Jon will do the same, and not as a mindless wight, perhaps not as the good guy, but not as a un/dead man either.

[Ice Queen]

25 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

I know Dany is not immune to fire.  She is not special as in superhuman, she is special as in for the narrative, an important character in the book.  So is Jon.

A young girl walked into a blazing inferno and not only survived but gave birth to 3 dragons through some kind of hazy blood magic.  Is Jon surviving being stabbed 4 or 5 times any more far-fetched than that?  Jon will survive because he needs to survive for now.

It doesn't have to necessarily be Mel, Val is at the wall, and Jon is a skinchanger/warg.  Why else have the Varamyr chapter?

Of course this is all just my interpretation, but Jon and Dany are the two main characters, or the closest thing we got to it, which doesn't mean they'll both end up as good guys, on the same team, or in love.  However, Dany did something miraculous in the eyes of many, and gained a large following because of it; IMHO, Jon will do the same, and not as a mindless wight, perhaps not as the good guy, but not as a un/dead man either.

I agree that it could be Val or he could warg Ghost, and that's why we have the Varamyr chapter.

I think we're more or less on the same page. I don't think Jon is going to be a wight. If he takes control of the Other army, he'll do it knowing full well what he's doing and why. 

[King Ned Stark]

23 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

I agree that it could be Val or he could warg Ghost, and that's why we have the Varamyr chapter.

I think we're more or less on the same page. I don't think Jon is going to be a wight. If he takes control of the Other army, he'll do it knowing full well what he's doing and why. 

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Damsel in Distress]

4 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Do people really think that the character development of Jon Snow over 5 books, dozens of chapters, hundreds of pages will end so ignominiously?  What would be the point?

I assume that most of the Jon hate comes from Dany fans?  Which I don't particularly understand, as I like them both.  But I don't try to figure out what has or will happen by what I want to happen.

Was Dany surviving Drogo's pyre cheap, or bad writing?  She survived because she is special, and has an important role to play in the narrative, just as she'll survive the drothraki horde.  Jon will survive his betrayal, because unlike Beric or Catelyn, he too is special and has an important role to play.  They both have roles in the upcoming books; good, bad, or otherwise.

I am a Dany fan and a Jon hater.  I guess you are referring to me.  I might add, I do want Jon to stay dead or get wightified. 

Jon doesn't really have a lot of character development.  He's still the same prick that left Winterfell.  He just likes the free folk now.  He was always bad at keeping to the rules.  That hasn't changed.  It would not be a waste to kill Jon.

[Magnar, P.I.]

Damn, started putting together an essay with essentially the same point several months ago but forgot about it and lost the chance... but here's the evidence I came up with:

Castle Black appears to be under imminent threat of Other attack at the time of the mutiny against Jon. This is the end of the final Jon chapter in ADWD:

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

We know the Others bring the cold, this is well-established, and Jon doesn't even feel the fourth knife, only the cold. Of course, he faceplants into the snow before this, but this seems pretty quick for the cold to be explained by numbing or blood loss. Perhaps it's adrenaline, but if so I doubt he would feel the cold or pain washing over him, or anything for that matter, and might even be fighting back despite his wounds.

Further, mutiny seems to be a common theme leading up to appearances by the Others. On the Fist of the First Men, Chett has recruited men into his conspiracy to murder Lord Commander Mormont and is moments from pulling the trigger on it when the horn signals the Others' attack. Further, in the Prologue of GOT right before our very first Other shows up, we see dissension in the ranks of the rangers on patrol.

Will could see the tightness around Gared's mouth, the barely suppressed anger in his eyes under the thick black hood of his cloak. Gared had spent forty years in the Night's Watch, man and boy, and he was not accustomed to being made light of. Yet it was more than that. Under the wounded pride, Will could sense something else in the older man. You could taste it; a nervous tension that came perilous close to fear.

And later in the chapter...

 

Gared's hood shadowed his face, but Will could see the hard glitter in his eyes as he stared at the knight. For a moment he was afraid the older man would go for his sword. It was a short, ugly thing, its grip discolored by sweat, its edge nicked from hard use, but Will would not have given an iron bob for the lordling's life if Gared pulled it from its scabbard.

Finally Gared looked down. "No fire," he muttered, low under his breath.

 

After his companions are killed and turned to wights, Gared escapes but then deserts and makes it across the Wall somehow instead of reporting back to Castle Black. Yes, logically he might be afraid that no one will believe him and he will be branded a murderer, or at least a craven, and will be executed, but we don't really have any reason to think this is the case. Gared has been on the wall 40 years, it's hard to believe that no one would give him the benefit of the doubt and at least go investigate, but fear can make us do crazy things. Still, it seems this "nervous tension that came perilous close to fear" is an effect of the Others, one that doesn't require their immediate presence to instill in the hearts of men.

With the arrival of the Others imminent, this gives an unexpected way for Jon to return to the story. This makes the presence of Ghost and Melisandre, two perfectly good and well-established methods for Jon's resurrection, red herrings to distract us from the original mode of reanimation that we saw in the very beginning, in the GOT Prologue: the raising of wights. 

[falcotron]

8 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

The thought of Jon being resurrected by Melisandre makes me sick. He is of the North and the old gods. It's just wrong on so many levels. 

So what? Do you actually believe in the Old Gods or something? Are you sacrificing kids to the trees in your backyard?

Why should R'hllor care that Jon followed the Old Gods any more than he cared that Cat and Beric followed the Seven, or any more than the Great Other should care that some of the corpses he's raised were left behind by Northerners and others by Southerners? The gods aren't that prejudiced. (And of course R'hllor and the Great Other and the other gods probably aren't real, anthropomorphic gods like their followers believe anyway, and some impersonal magic force has even less reason to be interested in what Jon's religious beliefs were than R'hllor would.)

As long as all those gods stay away from Vargo Hoat's corpse, because that would be wrong on so many levels, as the Black Goat is obviously real.

[Makk]

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon doesn't really have a lot of character development.

 

Seriously? This is the guy who started the story as an aggrieved and moody bastard, the guy who believed getting away to the wall was an escape from his tormented life and then found that his previous life wasn't actually that bad. This was the guy who came to realise that his views on people he thought were beneath him were wrong. This is the boy who heard from afar that his father was named a traitor and then murdered. And when his best friend who was half-brother rode off to avenge their father, he was forbidden to help. And then he was betrayed and murdered, just as his other two half brothers were later betrayed by a close family friend.

This was the guy who swore to follow his own vows and was then ordered to break them. This was the guys tormented by temptation when he swore a personal vow he would never father a bastard himself. And then he was tempted by being named the trueborn lord of Winterfell, something he longed for but couldn't take for two different reasons.

This was the guy who went from almost being executed to becoming lord commander...and then starting to play the game. This is the guy who brought the wildlings through the wall bringing two people together. The guy who desperately wanted to help Stannis deliver him vengeance but had another vow telling him not to get involved. This is the guy who watched his much loved sister get sold to a depraved maniac. This is the guy faced with evidence and offers of magical aid, but from a source he personally finds abhorrent.

This was the guy who finally gave into the temptation of breaking a vow but is then betrayed and murdered by his men, just like his father and brother were before. This was the guy we learn was a lie and not a bastard at all but actually the trueborn heir to the seven kingdoms while being completely oblivious to the fact.

I can understand you not liking him. It's kind of edgy to not like heroes, and Jon is the closest thing to a hero that the series has. What I cannot understand is why you don't think he has had any character development. George has been mentally abusing him over four books. Dangling carrots in front of him and whacking his ass with a stick. To be completely honest I didn't particularly like him until Dance or at least right at the end of Storm. While he was OK there were many characters I enjoyed reading more, but after Dance he would be one of my top two. I find him and his views very different from the start of the story and I really appreciate how his character has grown, because doing such a nuanced hero is quite tricky.