Noble Lothar Frey

Jon will get wightified, a theory by Lothar Frey

114 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

The thought of Jon being resurrected by Melisandre makes me sick. He is of the North and the old gods. It's just wrong on so many levels.

That is GRRM, virtually nothing is simple or black and white. I hope it doesn't turn out like that either but it is a distinct possibility (probability?)

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On 7/15/2017 at 7:32 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

I, Lord Lothar Frey, renowned architect of the Red Wedding and one of the most prominent thinkers in Westeros present before you a theory. 

Jon will get resurrected by the White Walkers.  He will become of one the ice leaders because of his skin changing ability.  Skin changing is how the Others control their wights.  Set this idea aside for the moment and we will come back to it.

Man and the White Walkers can live side by side.  Craster proved it can be done as long as man is willing to make periodic sacrifices to the White Walkers.  The bodies of the walkers are slowly deteriorating and Craster's baby donations allowed them to replace their corpse.  Keep them supplied with babies and they will continue to live.  They can mind transfer from their decaying bodies to the newborn's body as they need to.  It would suck to have the mind of an adult in the form factor of a baby but hell it's better than permanent death. 

The wildlings value their freedom and they will side with the Others.  A deal will be struck in which the Others will push the non-wildlings out of the north in return for the wildlings swearing to sacrifice their babies to the Others.  Some quota will be agreed on.  Jon will lead the wights against the people of Westeros but will be stopped by Dany and Drogon at the Trident.  A new boundary will be established at Moat Cailin between the kingdom of ice and the kingdom of fire. 

 

A peace i question as yes it would fit Martin's ideas of war. It doesn't resolve the problem of the irregular winters and summers though that are now tied to magic, probably since the last Long Night. As even Maesters speculate the weather used to be normal and based on the globes position to the sun. 

Alternately, i to dont like the idea of Jon being the Aragorn figure to lead the other heros victoriously against the seemingly unstoppable forces of the evil bad guys. 

I suspect what the Others want is tied up into things, but question what it is that they want. Which i honestly think is to break the curse against them by the CotF so that they may die like mortal men and be unbound of their torture. I could be wrong though. I have a working idea that the Others want Jon and Dany to mate. That Jon being raised as a wight's implication is that he's now under the control of some one else who has access to Jon's memories and a part of him, like Coldhands. That they'll control Jon into hooking up with Dany and mating to produce a "Never Born" child, that may be the vessel to they're freedom? Idk. Im still toying with the particulars but Crastor's sons seem one aspect along with the story of the Night's King and his Corpse Queen. Why not just turn a female into an Other? Why only take Crastor's sons? I suspect it's part of the Life paying for death bit. A female Other and a Male Other are just two dead things producing more dead things. But The Night's King (Alive) and his Corpse Queen (Dead) seem similar to Melisandre (Dead) and Stannis (Alive). This too i think will come of Jon (Dead) and Dany (Alive). 

I suspect the ancient stories are mixed and wrong and that the story of the Night's King and Azor Ahai is how the CotF tricked humans into creating the Others. Kinda what im working the theory around i guess. So other than the Others simply wanting revenge, the next logical thing i can think of is to break the curse. 

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18 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I am a Dany fan and a Jon hater.  I guess you are referring to me.  I might add, I do want Jon to stay dead or get wightified. 

Jon doesn't really have a lot of character development.  He's still the same prick that left Winterfell.  He just likes the free folk now.  He was always bad at keeping to the rules.  That hasn't changed.  It would not be a waste to kill Jon.

Wasn't referring to you in particular, just seems like a trend here recently since I've come back to the forum.

I guess we see things differently, which is okay.  Jon has made mistakes, but seems to want to do the right thing, I can understand thinking him boring or not liking him, but not to the point of people thinking he deserves to die.  Just my opinion.

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It's not definite that Jon is actually dead/killed at the end of Dance. We need to remember that.

I'm more inclined to think that Jon is going to undergo a very near death experience, and when he eventually recovers, he'll be more magically awakened, instead of actually dying and being resurrected/reanimated. Jon, like Bran, is likely to have an extended recovery period, where it's unclear whether or not he'll pull through, but he'll come out more magically aware/awakened than before.

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20 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

It's not definite that Jon is actually dead/killed at the end of Dance. We need to remember that.

I'm more inclined to think that Jon is going to undergo a very near death experience, and when he eventually recovers, he'll be more magically awakened, instead of actually dying and being resurrected/reanimated. Jon, like Bran, is likely to have an extended recovery period, where it's unclear whether or not he'll pull through, but he'll come out more magically aware/awakened than before.

That's a good point.  Jon tries to reassure  Robb after Bran's fall by saying, "you Starks are hard to kill".  Bran survives and Robb stands back up after taking three crossbow bolts.  Jon is half Stark after all.

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I find it curious how most, if not all theories think that the story will somehow dramatically change in the end. GRRM has given nothing to suggest that. Instead, he's been giving a clue after another that the world of ice and fire is in a time loop where same kind of people and incidents keep raising their heads. Time is cyclical here, not linear. The story we are reading about now is one of these time loops from the doom of House Targaryen to its restoration. The story will end just like it began. Iron Throne stays. As will the threat from the north.

 

And yes, Jon Snow's destiny is to impregnate Dany with a Targ baby and become the Night King. Dany will become the Night Queen. Their child gets the throne and rebuilds House Targaryen. No one dares to touch the Targs with undead parents like that. The future of Dany and Jon is in the very first book where Dany married Khal Drogo (referring to the Night King) and Jon travelled to north. Meanwhile both expressed great will to protect their children (Dany in a very obvious manner and Jon by constantly saying how he will never father a bastard and make a child go through what he went through). As the undead King and Queen of Land of always winter they will keep an eye on their children. But as the world of ice and fire indeed is a time loop, they will one day return yet again when the Targs are killed. And it's a story we already know since it's very much like the one we are reading about now.

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53 minutes ago, MakeThemBurn said:

I find it curious how most, if not all theories think that the story will somehow dramatically change in the end. GRRM has given nothing to suggest that. Instead, he's been giving a clue after another that the world of ice and fire is in a time loop where same kind of people and incidents keep raising their heads. Time is cyclical here, not linear. The story we are reading about now is one of these time loops from the doom of House Targaryen to its restoration. The story will end just like it began. Iron Throne stays. As will the threat from the north.

 

And yes, Jon Snow's destiny is to impregnate Dany with a Targ baby and become the Night King. Dany will become the Night Queen. Their child gets the throne and rebuilds House Targaryen. No one dares to touch the Targs with undead parents like that. The future of Dany and Jon is in the very first book where Dany married Khal Drogo (referring to the Night King) and Jon travelled to north. Meanwhile both expressed great will to protect their children (Dany in a very obvious manner and Jon by constantly saying how he will never father a bastard and make a child go through what he went through). As the undead King and Queen of Land of always winter they will keep an eye on their children. But as the world of ice and fire indeed is a time loop, they will one day return yet again when the Targs are killed. And it's a story we already know since it's very much like the one we are reading about now.

Hmmm, it's very, very rough but you might have something here. I don't think you're literally right on where the plot will go, but their relationship could well have parallels to the Night's King/Queen tale that maybe tells us something about the real events behind the legend. 

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3 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

That's a good point.  Jon tries to reassure  Robb after Bran's fall by saying, "you Starks are hard to kill".  Bran survives and Robb stands back up after taking three crossbow bolts.  Jon is half Stark after all.

Plus Jon's at the Wall, which is filled with magic and has preservative qualities (see: Maester Aemon), and is right outside the tower where Val is. Val's sister Dalla saved Mance's life after being severely injured, might Val save Jon's? The alternative source for healing is probably Mel doing a fire-healing, ala Moqorro, but Val healing Jon seems more suitable/appropriate, though I suppose both could contribute.

Especially in light of Bran's vision of Jon, it seems likely that Jon's going to be unconscious, possibly comatose, for a while. That's probably a point in favor of Val doing the healing, not Mel.

3 hours ago, MakeThemBurn said:

I find it curious how most, if not all theories think that the story will somehow dramatically change in the end. GRRM has given nothing to suggest that. Instead, he's been giving a clue after another that the world of ice and fire is in a time loop where same kind of people and incidents keep raising their heads. Time is cyclical here, not linear. The story we are reading about now is one of these time loops from the doom of House Targaryen to its restoration. The story will end just like it began. Iron Throne stays. As will the threat from the north.

 

And yes, Jon Snow's destiny is to impregnate Dany with a Targ baby and become the Night King. Dany will become the Night Queen. Their child gets the throne and rebuilds House Targaryen. No one dares to touch the Targs with undead parents like that. The future of Dany and Jon is in the very first book where Dany married Khal Drogo (referring to the Night King) and Jon travelled to north. Meanwhile both expressed great will to protect their children (Dany in a very obvious manner and Jon by constantly saying how he will never father a bastard and make a child go through what he went through). As the undead King and Queen of Land of always winter they will keep an eye on their children. But as the world of ice and fire indeed is a time loop, they will one day return yet again when the Targs are killed. And it's a story we already know since it's very much like the one we are reading about now.

I think I'm more inclined towards a quasi-Arthurian fate ... or an Immortal Emperor, or stepping back as an immortal guardian, if things go that way.

 

Actually, I think what's currently happening with the White Walkers is probably that somebody already screwed the pooch in one of two ways - (1) a pact was made to end the Long Night and keep the Walkers quiescent, and it was violated in some way, releasing the Walkers, and/or (2) a pact was made with the Starks, and the Walkers are coming to hold up their end. Most likely, IMO, this happened around the timeframe of Robert's Rebellion.

 

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7 hours ago, Kytheros said:

It's not definite that Jon is actually dead/killed at the end of Dance. We need to remember that.

I'm more inclined to think that Jon is going to undergo a very near death experience, and when he eventually recovers, he'll be more magically awakened, instead of actually dying and being resurrected/reanimated. Jon, like Bran, is likely to have an extended recovery period, where it's unclear whether or not he'll pull through, but he'll come out more magically aware/awakened than before.

 

7 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

That's a good point.  Jon tries to reassure  Robb after Bran's fall by saying, "you Starks are hard to kill".  Bran survives and Robb stands back up after taking three crossbow bolts.  Jon is half Stark after all.

 

3 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Plus Jon's at the Wall, which is filled with magic and has preservative qualities (see: Maester Aemon), and is right outside the tower where Val is. Val's sister Dalla saved Mance's life after being severely injured, might Val save Jon's? The alternative source for healing is probably Mel doing a fire-healing, ala Moqorro, but Val healing Jon seems more suitable/appropriate, though I suppose both could contribute.

Especially in light of Bran's vision of Jon, it seems likely that Jon's going to be unconscious, possibly comatose, for a while. That's probably a point in favor of Val doing the healing, not Mel.

I think I'm more inclined towards a quasi-Arthurian fate ... or an Immortal Emperor, or stepping back as an immortal guardian, if things go that way.

 

Actually, I think what's currently happening with the White Walkers is probably that somebody already screwed the pooch in one of two ways - (1) a pact was made to end the Long Night and keep the Walkers quiescent, and it was violated in some way, releasing the Walkers, and/or (2) a pact was made with the Starks, and the Walkers are coming to hold up their end. Most likely, IMO, this happened around the timeframe of Robert's Rebellion.

 

Yes. You two are making some really good points and ones that I have believed for a long time now. It seems the book clues you guys have already mentioned go along with what I noticed to be a huge hint, is how the death of Rhaegar, Robb, then the near zombie death Bran experiences before he goes into Bloodraven's cave foretells how it will happen with Jon.

Jon is not dead-dead. This was his own near death experience required to wake his warg/magic talents. And count me in as someone who thinks Val (maybe with Morna) will be a huge help in helping Jon heal. I think red Mel is a red herring, as Patchface might sing about.

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On 9/12/2017 at 0:13 AM, Makk said:

:huh:

 

Seriously? This is the guy who started the story as an aggrieved and moody bastard, the guy who believed getting away to the wall was an escape from his tormented life and then found that his previous life wasn't actually that bad. This was the guy who came to realise that his views on people he thought were beneath him were wrong. This is the boy who heard from afar that his father was named a traitor and then murdered. And when his best friend who was half-brother rode off to avenge their father, he was forbidden to help. And then he was betrayed and murdered, just as his other two half brothers were later betrayed by a close family friend.

This was the guy who swore to follow his own vows and was then ordered to break them. This was the guys tormented by temptation when he swore a personal vow he would never father a bastard himself. And then he was tempted by being named the trueborn lord of Winterfell, something he longed for but couldn't take for two different reasons.

This was the guy who went from almost being executed to becoming lord commander...and then starting to play the game. This is the guy who brought the wildlings through the wall bringing two people together. The guy who desperately wanted to help Stannis deliver him vengeance but had another vow telling him not to get involved. This is the guy who watched his much loved sister get sold to a depraved maniac. This is the guy faced with evidence and offers of magical aid, but from a source he personally finds abhorrent.

This was the guy who finally gave into the temptation of breaking a vow but is then betrayed and murdered by his men, just like his father and brother were before. This was the guy we learn was a lie and not a bastard at all but actually the trueborn heir to the seven kingdoms while being completely oblivious to the fact.

I can understand you not liking him. It's kind of edgy to not like heroes, and Jon is the closest thing to a hero that the series has. What I cannot understand is why you don't think he has had any character development. George has been mentally abusing him over four books. Dangling carrots in front of him and whacking his ass with a stick. To be completely honest I didn't particularly like him until Dance or at least right at the end of Storm. While he was OK there were many characters I enjoyed reading more, but after Dance he would be one of my top two. I find him and his views very different from the start of the story and I really appreciate how his character has grown, because doing such a nuanced hero is quite tricky.

Jon is still the same wet blanket that he was at the beginning of the story.  He knows a little bit more and got more wild, yet he's still the same guy who ran away from his vows to help Robb fight the Lannisters.  The temptation was just a little bit stronger with Arya because he's sickly obsessed with her but he's the same guy.  He had difficulty keeping to his commitments.

If Jon is a hero, who needs a villain!!!  No.  Jon is not a hero.  George took the time and crafted Jon's last few chapters to show how his decision to put the safety of the realm in jeopardy to get his sister out of a bad marriage.  Jon is not a hero.  He may seem that way from the surface but read carefully and he's a person with huge character defects who has done more harm to the realm than anybody in recent times.

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16 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is still the same wet blanket that he was at the beginning of the story.  He knows a little bit more and got more wild, yet he's still the same guy who ran away from his vows to help Robb fight the Lannisters.  The temptation was just a little bit stronger with Arya because he's sickly obsessed with her but he's the same guy.  He had difficulty keeping to his commitments.

If Jon is a hero, who needs a villain!!!  No.  Jon is not a hero.  George took the time and crafted Jon's last few chapters to show how his decision to put the safety of the realm in jeopardy to get his sister out of a bad marriage.  Jon is not a hero.  He may seem that way from the surface but read carefully and he's a person with huge character defects who has done more harm to the realm than anybody in recent times.

This is the stupidest post I have ever read, since I signed up here. This may sound rude, and I apologize hereby, but I am just being honest. Disliking Jon is one thing, but calling him evil? Absolute ridiculous. 

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On 9/16/2017 at 9:07 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is not a hero.  He may seem that way from the surface but read carefully and he's a person with huge character defects who has done more harm to the realm than anybody in recent times.

I'm in agreement with this line.  Without meaning to, Jon has done a lot of harm to the realm.  His intentions involved getting Arya away from Ramsay's control.  We know he had intentions to get her away from her husband.  It snowballed and got out of control.  It was bound to get out of Jon's control because the Boltons are understandably not going to hand Arya over willingly.  Jon was at fault when he started that feud with the Bolton family.  Now, instead of a united team at the wall to defend against the white walkers, a battle will break out between the NW and the wildlings. 

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This theory would confirm my suspicions that Jon Snow and Euron Greyjoy share one mind and one soul . Leading a group of wights does seem like something Euron/Evil Jon would be down for.

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On 9/16/2017 at 9:07 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

If Jon is a hero, who needs a villain!!!  No.  Jon is not a hero.  George took the time and crafted Jon's last few chapters to show how his decision to put the safety of the realm in jeopardy to get his sister out of a bad marriage.  Jon is not a hero.  He may seem that way from the surface but read carefully and he's a person with huge character defects who has done more harm to the realm than anybody in recent times.

True and in keeping with what Rhaegar did.  Both men broke the peace and unity of the people they were to lead for the love of a woman.  Rhaegar destroyed the realm to pursue an affair with Lyanna.  Jon broke the NW to rescue Arya from Ramsay.

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