Jump to content

Heresy 201 and onward we go...


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

Mel believes it's Stannis who by right the throne should pass through.He is the only one who is fighting to save the realm.Still think its not him but he has some part in this.

 

I don't think she does. I don't remember the actual quote but there is a point when she comes out with the speech about having no interest in the fight for a mere kingdom, but she's fighting is the war for life [!] itself and the squabble for Westeros means nothing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think she does. I don't remember the actual quote but there is a point when she comes out with the speech about having no interest in the fight for a mere kingdom, but she's fighting is the war for life [!] itself and the squabble for Westeros means nothing

Stannis claims that Melisandre can see more than one future:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

Stannis shifted in his seat, frowning. "Was, would have, what is that? He did what he did. He came here with his banners and his peaches, to his doom . . . and it was well for me he did. Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well. A morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing. Had I met my brother there, it might have been me who died in place of him."

"Or you might have joined your strength to his to bring down the Lannisters," Davos protested. "Why not that? If she saw two futures, well . . . both cannot be true."

 

King Stannis pointed a finger. "There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you'll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that's all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Stannis claims that Melisandre can see more than one future:

The cited vision was fulfilled, just not according to Melisandre's interpretation--what she saw was Garlan Tyrell, wearing Renly's armor, during Stannis' defeat at the Blackwater.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, he gave it to Sam.  He told him if he couldn't fix it, to make a drinking cup out of it.  I'm reminded of the notion that the grail cup isn't a golden chalice covered in jewels; but an everyday utensil.  So when we are talking about Joramun's horn or the horn of winter; I think we should be looking for something of that nature.  It's one reason I dismiss the great horn in Mance's tent.  That too is Joramun's horn although it's utility is something entirely different, I suspect.  It appears to be a dragonbinding horn by description.  So a cup of fire.  So it would seem that Sam's purpose is tied to the horn and the wall, the wall, the wall. 

      

Yeah that massive eye sore was a total fraud.

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think she does. I don't remember the actual quote but there is a point when she comes out with the speech about having no interest in the fight for a mere kingdom, but she's fighting is the war for life [!] itself and the squabble for Westeros means nothing

I am not to clear on that myself.I thought she was the one saying this really isn't about Westeros.War for the Dawn yada yada.

But in the recesses of my mind somewhere I seem to recall her saying that Stannis is the rightful king in response to Jon.When trying to get the North to follow him and when Jon said a letter was sent to King Tommen.

 

On 8/17/2017 at 6:48 PM, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Maybe Stannis pulled HER out of a hat. 

Snowy!!!! Wassssupppp???

Stannis seems the type to see what someone has to offer.He s

Doesn't seem to believe in that AA thing.He seems to believe it is his duty.Maybe Mel went through Selyse to get to Stannis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

I am not to clear on that myself.I thought she was the one saying this really isn't about Westeros.War for the Dawn yada yada.

But in the recesses of my mind somewhere I seem to recall her saying that Stannis is the rightful king in response to Jon.When trying to get the North to follow him and when Jon said a letter was sent to King Tommen.

 

I think both were said, but the first is true in Mel's mind. She wants Jon to follow Stannis, and thinks he will do so more readily if Stannis is his rightful lawful king, but she was very vehement in her contempt for the game of thrones, because its only the war for the Dawn that matters - and that only the elect will survive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/19/2017 at 2:48 PM, Black Crow said:

I think both were said, but the first is true in Mel's mind. She wants Jon to follow Stannis, and thinks he will do so more readily if Stannis is his rightful lawful king, but she was very vehement in her contempt for the game of thrones, because its only the war for the Dawn that matters - and that only the elect will survive

Yes, she doesn't appear to get Jon's significance.  Although she recognizes his power in relation to warging.  Something she wants to use for shadow-binding since Stannis' potential for such is much depleted.  Why she thinks Jon can use the power of the Wall or what that means is a big question.  Whatever she thinks he can do or what she can do with him is ultimately in the service of her vision of Stannis.

The fact that he intends to take up residence at the Night Fort and their interrogation of Sam concerning the Black Gate seems a bit ominous given Mel's track record with weirwoods and the old gods.  I think the 'chink' in the Wall is the Night Fort/Black Gate.  This is starting to look like another version of the Night King with a fiery twist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/14/2017 at 5:33 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Not exactlyyyy.Her talking to a long dead king isn't going to tell her about future events.

Plus,why Kings? Why not say I can talk to people long dead.

Her statement about babes also seems deliberate.Why babes? What can a babe tell her that someone in their teens or older can't.Why not say talk to people not yet born?

 

Only for argument's sake, and only because for some reason, this jumped out at me. Perhaps it is based on the belief that young children still grasp their past lives and can "remember" them.

Apparently when I was just learning to speak, I would tell stories about "when I lived before" that creeped the adults around me out. It seems that this isn't such a rare phenomenon. I dunno. I have a hard enough time keeping up with this thread, let alone having anything to add to it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Ninerings said:

Only for argument's sake, and only because for some reason, this jumped out at me. Perhaps it is based on the belief that young children still grasp their past lives and can "remember" them.

Maybe she is talking about her age having been around for who knows how long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/13/2017 at 0:56 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Is she pretending though? Vs does she believe he is based on info she has and in her mind she's just helping him out.

Note, I am not arguing if he is (for the record I don't believe he is).The point of this is Melissandre' s motive to push that he is so hard.

She is putting herself in dangerous situations for a person she "knows" is a fraud? I don't buy that.She didn't just do this on a whim.Hence it comes back to what makes her believe it is Stannis?

Is there a difference? I suppose new information might illuminate benevolent intent, but I don't think it's necessary. We know that Mel is a fanatic. We know her judgement is impaired. We know she is willing to pretend she has more power than she actually has, and that she is willing to let spectators believe things that are not true so that she can push her agenda.

 

Quote

Mel may be a lot of things but she likes being alive.And from her internal monologue she actually believes Stannis his the LOL's chosen.

I disagree regarding Mel being "alive" in any natural sense. As I've outlined here, I think GRRM has demonstrated that she is in fact a fire wight. A younger, more beautiful Lady Stoneheart, but just as dead and single-minded.

Re: Stannis. Sure. She might genuinely believe he's AAR, but if so, that only further proves that she is a fool, high on her own bs.

Even Davos is like, "Umm, Stan wasn't born on Dragonstone... this is awkward."

 

Quote

So was it something she gleaned (correct or not) from her flames.Did she have a pow wow with a dead king or two.Also,its interesting she says babes  not yet born.That in itself is peculiar.

I don't think GRRM was being poetic.

Neither do I. She's a fanatic, and speaks like one. Trump claimed to know all the smartest people, and to have all the best words. In spite of such boasts, the truth is plain to see.

 

On 8/13/2017 at 0:56 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

@Voice Nice thread.

:cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Voice said:

Is there a difference? I suppose new information might illuminate benevolent intent, but I don't think it's necessary. We know that Mel is a fanatic. We know her judgement is impaired. We know she is willing to pretend she has more power than she actually has, and that she is willing to let spectators believe things that are not true so that she can push her agenda...

Re: Stannis. Sure. She might genuinely believe he's AAR, but if so, that only further proves that she is a fool, high on her own bs.

Even Davos is like, "Umm, Stan wasn't born on Dragonstone... this is awkward."

 

I suspect that Melisandre is more dangerous than she appears.

We see her through the text as someone so blinded by her fanaticism that she misinterprets her visions, makes bad mistakes and is ultimately a fraud.

GRRM, I understand, has said she's misunderstood - do we have a quotation?

Looking at her POV as well as her actions I think this may be true. I think that she knows exactly what she is doing. We know that there seems to be some kind of bitter rivalry within the Red Temple and that Mel is not at one with Master Benero. The battle for the Dawn is coming and she has very different ideas as to how its going to be fought. Benero sees it as the final destruction of the Old Blood of Valyria and Azor Ahai/Danaerys as the means of accomplishing it.

Mel seemed to think of it the other way around. First find Azor Ahai then go looking for the fight, and that's essentially what's happened from her point of view. First she had Stannis reborn as AA in that rite on the beach on Dragonstone - as we [and probably she] know perfectly well he wasn't born of woman there, but he was reborn there amidst the stone dragons on the smoking island in the salt sea, and then no sooner had she accomplished that than the true enemy was revealed not in Volantis but in the North.

AA is not a god or demi god to be worshipped but a weapon and one that she, Melisandre, has made and will wield in the name of the Lord of Light.

Quote

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey fellow Heretics, it's been a while.  Can you help me with a quote from the books that Black Crow used to use back in the day.  I believe it was one of the wolves eating the limb of a wight and ends with something like "only then did it remember that it was dead".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/24/2017 at 9:29 PM, Ninerings said:

Only for argument's sake, and only because for some reason, this jumped out at me. Perhaps it is based on the belief that young children still grasp their past lives and can "remember" them.

Apparently when I was just learning to speak, I would tell stories about "when I lived before" that creeped the adults around me out. It seems that this isn't such a rare phenomenon. I dunno. I have a hard enough time keeping up with this thread, let alone having anything to add to it.

 

I've never heard that one.But interesting idea.

13 hours ago, Voice said:

Is there a difference? I suppose new information might illuminate benevolent intent, but I don't think it's necessary. We know that Mel is a fanatic. We know her judgement is impaired. We know she is willing to pretend she has more power than she actually has, and that she is willing to let spectators believe things that are not true so that she can push her agenda.

 

I disagree regarding Mel being "alive" in any natural sense. As I've outlined here, I think GRRM has demonstrated that she is in fact a fire wight. A younger, more beautiful Lady Stoneheart, but just as dead and single-minded.

Re: Stannis. Sure. She might genuinely believe he's AAR, but if so, that only further proves that she is a fool, high on her own bs.

Even Davos is like, "Umm, Stan wasn't born on Dragonstone... this is awkward."

 

Neither do I. She's a fanatic, and speaks like one. Trump claimed to know all the smartest people, and to have all the best words. In spite of such boasts, the truth is plain to see.

 

:cheers:

I think there is a difference.Its clear that her fires can be seen as "two way" I.e. Her seeing Bran and Bloodraven.

The fact that in every instance she is trying to interpret what she sees or maybe hears isn't the issue.

That being said I disagree that Mel is pretensive concerning "what" she can do.I don't see evidence that she has lied about her powers.If anything her POV doesn't reveal a lack of skill but humility.

You see that play out where she internally questions what may be compared to what she says.

 

So if she says she can speak to long dead kings and children not yet born.I don't doubt that.I doubt what "she" took away from her fires.I doubt her interpretation of what she heard or saw.

Lastly,I am not speaking about Mel's state of being when I say " she likes being alive." My point is she knows Stannis is not the man to trifle with and less she ends up herself on the crispy side she convinced him she is powerful.

Stannis doesn't believe he is this fabled hero.He believes to put the kingdom right is his duty by right.

Mel is in nowhere Trump territory.Her visions are accurate her understanding of them...Not so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Toccs said:

Hey fellow Heretics, it's been a while.  Can you help me with a quote from the books that Black Crow used to use back in the day.  I believe it was one of the wolves eating the limb of a wight and ends with something like "only then did it remember that it was dead".

Hey, good to hear from you!

Its a Bran POV in ADWD after he's stuck in the cave of skulls:

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead. Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a minor point, but from the description it sounds like the arm had been dead for some time before being "activated"

Now that then raises the question of whether it was severed before or after its owner was dead?

If it was cut off a wight then that's relatively straightforward[ish] and we have the precedent of Othor's hand, but if it was cut off before death or even was the cause of death and resurrection came later its a bit worrying that body parts can be resurrected independently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM, I understand, has said she's misunderstood - do we have a quotation?

Quote

Most misunderstood character... boy, I dunno.  Maybe Melisandre?

Source interview.

He also cites Varys, but from his hesitation about both, it's clear that this isn't something he's given a lot of thought to, probably because he hasn't even read the fan sites since the nineties (or so he claims...) and thus, isn't really in a position to know what the fans think en masse.  

Whatever information about fan beliefs filters through to him via Parris or conventions is a tiny subset of the whole.

Though I also suspect his recent post about the Book of Revelation/Valyria reflects his understanding of fan beliefs on a particular subject.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just a minor point, but from the description it sounds like the arm had been dead for some time before being "activated"

Now that then raises the question of whether it was severed before or after its owner was dead?

If it was cut off a wight then that's relatively straightforward[ish] and we have the precedent of Othor's hand, but if it was cut off before death or even was the cause of death and resurrection came later its a bit worrying that body parts can be resurrected independently.

I always just assumed that it was from one of the wights that Coldhands was slashing up as Bran and co entered the cave.  In the passage Summer is digging it up just utside the cave entrance isn't he.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...