Black Crow

Heresy 201 and onward we go...

406 posts in this topic

Melisandra sees Jon when she looks for AA, but Dany wakes dragons from Stony, not Jon.  Are they both AA?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Melisandra sees Jon when she looks for AA, but Dany wakes dragons from Stony, not Jon.  Are they both AA?

Neither.  It's my contention that the current Dragon-God is AA; everyone else associated with salt and smoke in one form or another are instruments of the dragon god.  Chief among them the three swords forged in the legend:

1) forged in water - 'a hero reborn in the sea - shattered on the waters - Tyrion on the smoking sea during the hurricane

2) forged in the heart of a lion - Jon (lion referring to royal blood rather than the Lannisters) - salt blocks and smokehouse at the Wall,not to mention the salt tears shed by the assassins and Jon's smoking blood

3) forged in the heart of AA's beloved:  Dany; reborn during MMD's ritual - the chosen of R'hllor to become mother of dragons and join with AA during her wake the dragon dream - she is herself transformed into a dragon - her salt tears steam off her face in a tent filled with smoke.

Melisandre asks to see  R'hllor's instrument. She is the one who interprets what she sees as AA.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Three tallow candles burned upon her windowsill to keep the terrors of the night at bay. Four more flickered beside her bed, two to either side. In the hearth a fire was kept burning day and night. The first lesson those who would serve her had to learn was that the fire must never, ever be allowed to go out.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm puzzled as to why she has latched onto Stannis at all.  Aemon seems to think it has something to do with the dragon blood-line.

I suspect that, from the outset, Melisandre made the same mistake that Aemon suggests has been made for a thousand years: she wasn't looking for a woman. So, she overlooks Dany, and perhaps Viserys' impending death looms in her fires (or he may have already been dead by the time she's making her way to Dragonstone...how much time is passing is a little fuzzy), so she moved to the next 'best' candidate more through process of elimination than prophecy. 

Stannis is the rightful Baratheon King, a quarter Targ, and the Lord of Dragonstone, and I suspect she used that combination of factors to convince herself that Stannis was the best fit--there also may be a self-fulfilling element, where the more she attempts to make Stannis look the part, the more he appears to superficially look like AA in her visions; for example, if Stannis was the Blue Eyed King in the HoTU vision, such imagery could be misleading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LynnS said:

1) forged in water - 'a hero reborn in the sea - shattered on the waters - Tyrion on the smoking sea during the hurricane

2) forged in the heart of a lion - Jon (lion referring to royal blood rather than the Lannisters) - salt blocks and smokehouse at the Wall,not to mention the salt tears shed by the assassins and Jon's smoking blood

3) forged in the heart of AA's beloved:  Dany; reborn during MMD's ritual - the chosen of R'hllor to become mother of dragons and join with AA during her wake the dragon dream - she is herself transformed into a dragon - her salt tears steam off her face in a tent filled with smoke.

Not to disagree with the ideas raised here, but it should be noted that one might also interpret "a hero reborn in the sea" as Dany (or the dragons) being reborn in the Dothraki Sea.

There's also a lion element in Dany's journey, as Drogo gifts her with the white lion pelt when he declares that he'll take the Seven Kingdoms for her, following the assassination attempt of the wine seller. 

To get a bit generous with the symbolic interpretation, Dany's relationship with Drogo could symbolize Dany herself being 'forged;' first by the marriage that brings her to the Dothraki Sea ('water'...again, being generous), then the assassination attempt that leads to Drogo's bold proclamation (heart of the lion), and finally by Drogo's death (Nissa Nissa); Dany even glimpses Drogo astride a stallion as an image in flame, just before the eggs begin to crack open:
 

Quote

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen nipples. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing.

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Not to disagree with the ideas raised here, but it should be noted that one might also interpret "a hero reborn in the sea" as Dany (or the dragons) being reborn in the Dothraki Sea.

Yes, quite right, except that the sword is forged in water rather than grass irrespective of it's moniker: the grass sea .  I think that's quite specific.  There is no question that Dany is chosen to hatch to dragon eggs and although Moqorro says she is R'hllor's chosen and the savior of the world... I'm not sure what he means by that.  Will she be heroic in the end, possibly.  I am expecting the same from Tyrion et al.  

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I suspect that, from the outset, Melisandre made the same mistake that Aemon suggests has been made for a thousand years: she wasn't looking for a woman. So, she overlooks Dany, and perhaps Viserys' impending death looms in her fires (or he may have already been dead by the time she's making her way to Dragonstone...how much time is passing is a little fuzzy), so she moved to the next 'best' candidate more through process of elimination than prophecy. 

Stannis is the rightful Baratheon King, a quarter Targ, and the Lord of Dragonstone, and I suspect she used that combination of factors to convince herself that Stannis was the best fit--there also may be a self-fulfilling element, where the more she attempts to make Stannis look the part, the more he appears to superficially look like AA in her visions; for example, if Stannis was the Blue Eyed King in the HoTU vision, such imagery could be misleading.

Add to which, there's a suspicion that Azor Ahai isn't a one and only individual whom the stars blazed for at his birth, however obscure, but instead of simply knocking around disregarded by all and sundry until hiscovered, he, like his sword, requires to be made, just like the Manx cat I keep mentioning. In Stannis, Mel finds someone with a single-minded [but frustrated] sense of his own destiny. He can be reborn as Azor Ahai and therefore she enacts the ritual to make him amidst the stone dragons of the smoking island in the salt sea [as GRRM helpfully refers to it twice in the space of two pages

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, JNR said:

She seems to have phrased her request a little differently:

So this, I suspect, is why she never saw Stannis.  Her delusion that Stannis is AAR doesn't make it so.

Also, since this is her thought... as opposed to something she said, that someone else heard... we know the capital S is accurate and reflects what she was shown: Jon Snow.

Really, I think everything she ever sees in the flames is accurate, in the sense that it happens at some point in time, under some conditions, in some way.  It might be literal, it might be metaphorical (skulls, for instance, representing death), but it is accurate.

But Melisandre is so thoroughly brainwashed she can't comprehend what she quite literally sees.  

To quote Syrio Forel:

Just so.  And if all this reminds anybody of a problem in... another place... why, that's not too surprising.  

I was thinking it might be double entendre.Or it may not be.Somehow I think its both and that they are linked.That's for another discussion.

I agree with you, I think her sight is accurate but the interpretation  may be off.

I am just intrigued on why she is fixated on Stannis.I think she saw him or she heard something that made her think it was him.

Again I think she's off because she interpreted wrong,but she didn't just pull Stannis out of a hat.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, quite right, except that the sword is forged in water rather than grass irrespective of it's moniker: the grass sea .  I think that's quite specific. 

I don't disagree that it's a poor substitute for water, but I still think it's a good fit for a "king reborn in the sea." 

In any case, if we're looking for people who are being "forged," you cited Tyrion and Jon, but I think Jamie could fit the bill as well. He was tempered and broken in 'water' by his imprisonment and the subsequent loss of his hand in the Riverlands, he was tempered (or is in the process of being tempered) in the heart of the lion at present with Cersei, and his Nissa Nissa 'tempering' is yet to come.

Though, I'm still clinging to some hope that my personal crackpot - that Ice will be reforged and tempered in Lady Stonheart's..err, heart, and 'drink' the fire that animated her and Beric to become Lightbringer 2.0 - will still come true. 
______

And, just as a bit of additional information about the Neverborn, since they were mentioned on the previous page, the 1993 synopsis isn't the only place where that term was in usage--it also appears in ARCs and early publisher blurbs for A Game of Thrones, with references to the Neverborn as "un-earthly demons of legend" who have returned in the north.

Edited by Matthew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I am just intrigued on why she is fixated on Stannis.I think she saw him or she heard something that made her think it was him.

Again I think she's off because she interpreted wrong,but she didn't just pull Stannis out of a hat.

Maybe Stannis pulled HER out of a hat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I am just intrigued on why she is fixated on Stannis.I think she saw him or she heard something that made her think it was him.

I think you might be right.  And I like Matthew's idea in that area:

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

there also may be a self-fulfilling element, where the more she attempts to make Stannis look the part, the more he appears to superficially look like AA in her visions

Suppose in the timeframe of AGOT, Mel looked into her flames and saw Stannis waving around Lightbringer.  That's a thing she would have considered extremely significant, and since then, it's actually happened multiple times now, in fulfillment of her vision... exactly because she made it happen.

It also seems possible she saw Stannis wielding Lightbringer against Ramsay's forces in a blizzard, and concluded that this was AAR busy doing his thing in a Second Long Night.  Lots of ways she might have settled on Stannis in addition to the usual stuff about salt, smoke, comets, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

In any case, if we're looking for people who are being "forged," you cited Tyrion and Jon, but I think Jamie could fit the bill as well. He was tempered and broken in 'water' by his imprisonment and the subsequent loss of his hand in the Riverlands, he was tempered (or is in the process of being tempered) in the heart of the lion at present with Cersei, and his Nissa Nissa 'tempering' is yet to come.

Oh yes!  Jaimie, the golden man who drinks in the sunlight is an instrument as well.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime I

An east wind blew through his tangled hair, as soft and fragrant as Cersei's fingers. He could hear birds singing, and feel the river moving beneath the boat as the sweep of the oars sent them toward the pale pink dawn. After so long in darkness, the world was so sweet that Jaime Lannister felt dizzy. I am alive, and drunk on sunlight. A laugh burst from his lips, sudden as a quail flushed from cover.

 

I think Jaime has a role to play, perhaps at the Wall... 

The sword and the fire burns against the night: Jon

The horn and the watcher on the Wall:  Sam

The shield and the light that brings the dawn: Jaimie.
 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

 

The number of times that 'shields' are referenced in Jaimie's POV is interesting.  That same with swords in Jon's POV and horns and the Wall in Sam's POV. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I don't disagree that it's a poor substitute for water, but I still think it's a good fit for a "king reborn in the sea." 

According to Davos, Mel tells about the prophecy of a 'hero reborn in the sea' rather than a king.  But of course Tyrion is a 'king' and a 'giant'.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion III

As Rykker filled it for him, Bowen Marsh said, "You have a great thirst for a small man."

"Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

 

I think ultimately it will be Tyrion who writes the history and the song of ice and fire when all is said and done.  The notion of making a song out of events comes up in Tyrion's POV several times.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

They set out through the rain at a hard gallop, and before long Tyrion's thighs were cramped and aching and his butt throbbed with pain. Even when they were safely away from the inn, and Catelyn Stark slowed them to a trot, it was a miserable pounding journey over rough ground, made worse by his blindness. Every twist and turn put him in danger of falling off his horse. The hood muffled sound, so he could not make out what was being said around him, and the rain soaked through the cloth and made it cling to his face, until even breathing was a struggle. The rope chafed his wrists raw and seemed to grow tighter as the night wore on. I was about to settle down to a warm fire and a roast fowl, and that wretched singer had to open his mouth, he thought mournfully. The wretched singer had come along with them. "There is a great song to be made from this, and I'm the one to make it," he told Catelyn Stark when he announced his intention of riding with them to see how the "splendid adventure" turned out. Tyrion wondered whether the boy would think the adventure quite so splendid once the Lannister riders caught up with them.

 

 

 

 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Again I think she's off because she interpreted wrong,but she didn't just pull Stannis out of a hat.

Exactly so.  She must have seen something in her fires to connect Stannis to the prophecy.  We could ask about the significance of Stannis' sigil -- the fiery hart (heart) 'crowned'.  Essentially this is a hart limned in flame something we have seen in her fires with Jon and previously with Dany during MMD's ritual.  So perhaps, this is related to the mystery of the horned lord and Joramun.  So perhaps Mel is looking for such in the Baratheon line with it's attendant horned lord and king's blood imagery.  I've wondered about the Mormont's and their possible ancestry back to Joramun.  Perhaps Longclaw is another relic of Joramun's along with the broken horn.  The problem is that Mel is looking for an actual crown rather than one who wears no crown.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. There was no crown on his head, no gold rings on his arms, no jewels at his throat, not even a gleam of silver. He wore wool and leather, and his only garment of note was his ragged black wool cloak, its long tears patched with faded red silk.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"Some say it was for a crown. Some say for a woman. Others that you had the wildling blood."

"The wildling blood is the blood of the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks. As to a crown, do you see one?"

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"Is there word of the king?" Ned demanded. "Just how long does Robert intend to hunt?"

"Given his preferences, I believe he'd stay in the forest until you and the queen both die of old age," Lord Petyr replied with a faint smile. "Lacking that, I imagine he'll return as soon as he's killed something. They found the white hart, it seems … or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of some monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it. Prince Joffrey returned this morning, with the Royces, Ser Balon Swann, and some twenty others of the party. The rest are still with the king."

 

 

 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 9:39 AM, LynnS said:

Neither.  It's my contention that the current Dragon-God is AA; everyone else associated with salt and smoke in one form or another are instruments of the dragon god.  Chief among them the three swords forged in the legend:

1) forged in water - 'a hero reborn in the sea - shattered on the waters - Tyrion on the smoking sea during the hurricane

2) forged in the heart of a lion - Jon (lion referring to royal blood rather than the Lannisters) - salt blocks and smokehouse at the Wall,not to mention the salt tears shed by the assassins and Jon's smoking blood

3) forged in the heart of AA's beloved:  Dany; reborn during MMD's ritual - the chosen of R'hllor to become mother of dragons and join with AA during her wake the dragon dream - she is herself transformed into a dragon - her salt tears steam off her face in a tent filled with smoke.

Melisandre asks to see  R'hllor's instrument. She is the one who interprets what she sees as AA.

 

Well technically, it's not "forged" in water/heart of lion/heart of spouse.  It's "tempered".  And "tempered" is defined as:

Quote

Tempering is a heat treatment technique applied to ferrous alloys, such as steel or cast iron, to achieve greater toughness by decreasing the hardness of the alloy. The reduction in hardness is usually accompanied by an increase in ductility, thereby decreasing the brittleness of the metal. Tempering is usually performed after quenching, which is rapid cooling of the metal to put it in its hardest state

Which brings to mind this quote about Stannis:

Quote

Jon found himself remembering something Donal Noye once said about the Baratheon brothers.  Robert was the true steel.  Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, but brittle, the way iron gets.  He'll break before he bends.  Uneasily he knelt, wondering why this brittle king had need of him.

This quote was attributed to Stannis in ASOS.  With ADWD and our peeks into WOW, Stannis is still alive and kicking.  And interestingly enough, if you look closely enough he seems to be learning from some of his past mistakes.  In other words, I'm not sure that GRRM is finished with Stannis' story arc just yet.  So perhaps this brittle king is still being tempered.  He was given Dragonstone to rule (water).  Then he went to war with the Lannisters (the heart of the lion).  Now he is in the process of trying to free Winterfell.  Perhaps we are being too hasty in immediately disregarding Stannis' importance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well technically, it's not "forged" in water/heart of lion/heart of spouse.  It's "tempered".  And "tempered" is defined as:

Which brings to mind this quote about Stannis:

This quote was attributed to Stannis in ASOS.  With ADWD and our peeks into WOW, Stannis is still alive and kicking.  And interestingly enough, if you look closely enough he seems to be learning from some of his past mistakes.  In other words, I'm not sure that GRRM is finished with Stannis' story arc just yet.  So perhaps this brittle king is still being tempered.  He was given Dragonstone to rule (water).  Then he went to war with the Lannisters (the heart of the lion).  Now he is in the process of trying to free Winterfell.  Perhaps we are being too hasty in immediately disregarding Stannis' importance.

And Winterfell is comprised of "watery walls". I agree, Stannis is not done yet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well technically, it's not "forged" in water/heart of lion/heart of spouse.  It's "tempered".  And "tempered" is defined as:

Which brings to mind this quote about Stannis:

This quote was attributed to Stannis in ASOS.  With ADWD and our peeks into WOW, Stannis is still alive and kicking.  And interestingly enough, if you look closely enough he seems to be learning from some of his past mistakes.  In other words, I'm not sure that GRRM is finished with Stannis' story arc just yet.  So perhaps this brittle king is still being tempered.  He was given Dragonstone to rule (water).  Then he went to war with the Lannisters (the heart of the lion).  Now he is in the process of trying to free Winterfell.  Perhaps we are being too hasty in immediately disregarding Stannis' importance.

It also brings to mind Donal Noye's assessment of Stannis:
 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"And his brothers?" Jon asked.

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

 

I don't think we're done with Stannis either.  He has offered to make Jon a Great Bastard.  :D  And I think he intends to take up residence at the Night Fort.  Mel has her plans for Stannis which could include wight-fication and a fiery sword.  But I still think he's a manx cat and Mel can't turn him into the true steel.

I think the issue at hand is that Mel is looking for the crowned stag rather than the horned lord.  The horned lord wears no crown and holds no lands.  She's looking at the right bloodline but the wrong 'king'.

There are any number of characters that are in the process of being tempered - broken and reshaped.  Who is doing it?  Jon isn't forging the sword of legend, he is being acted upon. He can't be AA any more than Stannis can be.  Dany and Jon represent AA's handywork, rather than the force acting on them.

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2017 at 1:03 PM, Black Crow said:

Add to which, there's a suspicion that Azor Ahai isn't a one and only individual whom the stars blazed for at his birth, however obscure, but instead of simply knocking around disregarded by all and sundry until hiscovered, he, like his sword, requires to be made, just like the Manx cat I keep mentioning. In Stannis, Mel finds someone with a single-minded [but frustrated] sense of his own destiny. He can be reborn as Azor Ahai and therefore she enacts the ritual to make him amidst the stone dragons of the smoking island in the salt sea [as GRRM helpfully refers to it twice in the space of two pages

Hiscovered, I like that. Personally I don't think we will end up with a definitive answer to who ends up as AA reborn, and then again I don't think there will actually be an AA reborn, just possibly a person or many that may fit the description that suits those who write the history books, i.e. someone who made a sacrifice/deed that served those who counted on them and is hence elevated to AA (or shall we say "Hero" status.) 

 

Mel does not know who AA reborn is...probably because no one is reborn... but there are people who have been and will be born who will serve those needs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Exactly so.  She must have seen something in her fires to connect Stannis to the prophecy.  We could ask about the significance of Stannis' sigil -- the fiery hart (heart) 'crowned'.  Essentially this is a hart limned in flame something we have seen in her fires with Jon and previously with Dany during MMD's ritual.  So perhaps, this is related to the mystery of the horned lord and Joramun.  So perhaps Mel is looking for such in the Baratheon line with it's attendant horned lord and king's blood imagery.  I've wondered about the Mormont's and their possible ancestry back to Joramun.  Perhaps Longclaw is another relic of Joramun's along with the broken horn.  The problem is that Mel is looking for an actual crown rather than one who wears no crown.

 

 

 

 

I think there is something not clear,but tangible enough where different priests seem to have different dogs in the race.

I don't have my books but if I recall Thoros was sent to convert Robert.Alas,Robert converted Thoros instead.

And in the cave per the brother hood and Dondarrion.

"Robert is slain,but his realm remains and we defend her."

The consort king title still remains with the Baratheon line.

Mel believes it's Stannis who by right the throne should pass through.He is the only one who is fighting to save the realm.Still think its not him but he has some part in this.

Jon imo is the next horned god/horned lord.The horn he found,he gave it to Sam right?

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well technically, it's not "forged" in water/heart of lion/heart of spouse.  It's "tempered".  And "tempered" is defined as:

Which brings to mind this quote about Stannis:

This quote was attributed to Stannis in ASOS.  With ADWD and our peeks into WOW, Stannis is still alive and kicking.  And interestingly enough, if you look closely enough he seems to be learning from some of his past mistakes.  In other words, I'm not sure that GRRM is finished with Stannis' story arc just yet.  So perhaps this brittle king is still being tempered.  He was given Dragonstone to rule (water).  Then he went to war with the Lannisters (the heart of the lion).  Now he is in the process of trying to free Winterfell.  Perhaps we are being too hasty in immediately disregarding Stannis' importance.

I like this.Very interesting take Stannis being tempered as if he himself is the sword.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Jon imo is the next horned god/horned lord.The horn he found,he gave it to Sam right?

Yes, he gave it to Sam.  He told him if he couldn't fix it, to make a drinking cup out of it.  I'm reminded of the notion that the grail cup isn't a golden chalice covered in jewels; but an everyday utensil.  So when we are talking about Joramun's horn or the horn of winter; I think we should be looking for something of that nature.  It's one reason I dismiss the great horn in Mance's tent.  That too is Joramun's horn although it's utility is something entirely different, I suspect.  It appears to be a dragonbinding horn by description.  So a cup of fire.  So it would seem that Sam's purpose is tied to the horn and the wall, the wall, the wall. 

      

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TheMiddleHero said:

Hiscovered, I like that. Personally I don't think we will end up with a definitive answer to who ends up as AA reborn, and then again I don't think there will actually be an AA reborn, just possibly a person or many that may fit the description that suits those who write the history books, i.e. someone who made a sacrifice/deed that served those who counted on them and is hence elevated to AA (or shall we say "Hero" status.) 

 

Mel does not know who AA reborn is...probably because no one is reborn... but there are people who have been and will be born who will serve those needs.

Maybe not reborn as in the recreation sense where the same spirits find new lives by inhabiting newborn babes, but there is evidence that the same situations come back around as if on a wheel of time, and people are finding themselves, albeit unconsciously, in similar circumstances as many of the famous heroes from the past. I will point to the Greyjoy family who seem to be reliving the lives of the Targaryens and Blackfyre Pretenders. They are poised to take and bind dragons, and use them to conquer Westeros like Aegon the Great. The Iron Captain of the Ironborn using iron swords flying on dragons to take the Iron Throne. Will they succeed like Targaryens or fail like Blackfyre Pretenders?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.