Black Crow

Heresy 201 and onward we go...

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Melisandra sees Jon when she looks for AA, but Dany wakes dragons from Stony, not Jon.  Are they both AA?

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Melisandra sees Jon when she looks for AA, but Dany wakes dragons from Stony, not Jon.  Are they both AA?

Neither.  It's my contention that the current Dragon-God is AA; everyone else associated with salt and smoke in one form or another are instruments of the dragon god.  Chief among them the three swords forged in the legend:

1) forged in water - 'a hero reborn in the sea - shattered on the waters - Tyrion on the smoking sea during the hurricane

2) forged in the heart of a lion - Jon (lion referring to royal blood rather than the Lannisters) - salt blocks and smokehouse at the Wall,not to mention the salt tears shed by the assassins and Jon's smoking blood

3) forged in the heart of AA's beloved:  Dany; reborn during MMD's ritual - the chosen of R'hllor to become mother of dragons and join with AA during her wake the dragon dream - she is herself transformed into a dragon - her salt tears steam off her face in a tent filled with smoke.

Melisandre asks to see  R'hllor's instrument. She is the one who interprets what she sees as AA.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Three tallow candles burned upon her windowsill to keep the terrors of the night at bay. Four more flickered beside her bed, two to either side. In the hearth a fire was kept burning day and night. The first lesson those who would serve her had to learn was that the fire must never, ever be allowed to go out.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm puzzled as to why she has latched onto Stannis at all.  Aemon seems to think it has something to do with the dragon blood-line.

I suspect that, from the outset, Melisandre made the same mistake that Aemon suggests has been made for a thousand years: she wasn't looking for a woman. So, she overlooks Dany, and perhaps Viserys' impending death looms in her fires (or he may have already been dead by the time she's making her way to Dragonstone...how much time is passing is a little fuzzy), so she moved to the next 'best' candidate more through process of elimination than prophecy. 

Stannis is the rightful Baratheon King, a quarter Targ, and the Lord of Dragonstone, and I suspect she used that combination of factors to convince herself that Stannis was the best fit--there also may be a self-fulfilling element, where the more she attempts to make Stannis look the part, the more he appears to superficially look like AA in her visions; for example, if Stannis was the Blue Eyed King in the HoTU vision, such imagery could be misleading.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

1) forged in water - 'a hero reborn in the sea - shattered on the waters - Tyrion on the smoking sea during the hurricane

2) forged in the heart of a lion - Jon (lion referring to royal blood rather than the Lannisters) - salt blocks and smokehouse at the Wall,not to mention the salt tears shed by the assassins and Jon's smoking blood

3) forged in the heart of AA's beloved:  Dany; reborn during MMD's ritual - the chosen of R'hllor to become mother of dragons and join with AA during her wake the dragon dream - she is herself transformed into a dragon - her salt tears steam off her face in a tent filled with smoke.

Not to disagree with the ideas raised here, but it should be noted that one might also interpret "a hero reborn in the sea" as Dany (or the dragons) being reborn in the Dothraki Sea.

There's also a lion element in Dany's journey, as Drogo gifts her with the white lion pelt when he declares that he'll take the Seven Kingdoms for her, following the assassination attempt of the wine seller. 

To get a bit generous with the symbolic interpretation, Dany's relationship with Drogo could symbolize Dany herself being 'forged;' first by the marriage that brings her to the Dothraki Sea ('water'...again, being generous), then the assassination attempt that leads to Drogo's bold proclamation (heart of the lion), and finally by Drogo's death (Nissa Nissa); Dany even glimpses Drogo astride a stallion as an image in flame, just before the eggs begin to crack open:
 

Quote

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen nipples. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing.

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

 

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Not to disagree with the ideas raised here, but it should be noted that one might also interpret "a hero reborn in the sea" as Dany (or the dragons) being reborn in the Dothraki Sea.

Yes, quite right, except that the sword is forged in water rather than grass irrespective of it's moniker: the grass sea .  I think that's quite specific.  There is no question that Dany is chosen to hatch to dragon eggs and although Moqorro says she is R'hllor's chosen and the savior of the world... I'm not sure what he means by that.  Will she be heroic in the end, possibly.  I am expecting the same from Tyrion et al.  

Edited by LynnS

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47 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I suspect that, from the outset, Melisandre made the same mistake that Aemon suggests has been made for a thousand years: she wasn't looking for a woman. So, she overlooks Dany, and perhaps Viserys' impending death looms in her fires (or he may have already been dead by the time she's making her way to Dragonstone...how much time is passing is a little fuzzy), so she moved to the next 'best' candidate more through process of elimination than prophecy. 

Stannis is the rightful Baratheon King, a quarter Targ, and the Lord of Dragonstone, and I suspect she used that combination of factors to convince herself that Stannis was the best fit--there also may be a self-fulfilling element, where the more she attempts to make Stannis look the part, the more he appears to superficially look like AA in her visions; for example, if Stannis was the Blue Eyed King in the HoTU vision, such imagery could be misleading.

Add to which, there's a suspicion that Azor Ahai isn't a one and only individual whom the stars blazed for at his birth, however obscure, but instead of simply knocking around disregarded by all and sundry until hiscovered, he, like his sword, requires to be made, just like the Manx cat I keep mentioning. In Stannis, Mel finds someone with a single-minded [but frustrated] sense of his own destiny. He can be reborn as Azor Ahai and therefore she enacts the ritual to make him amidst the stone dragons of the smoking island in the salt sea [as GRRM helpfully refers to it twice in the space of two pages

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17 hours ago, JNR said:

She seems to have phrased her request a little differently:

So this, I suspect, is why she never saw Stannis.  Her delusion that Stannis is AAR doesn't make it so.

Also, since this is her thought... as opposed to something she said, that someone else heard... we know the capital S is accurate and reflects what she was shown: Jon Snow.

Really, I think everything she ever sees in the flames is accurate, in the sense that it happens at some point in time, under some conditions, in some way.  It might be literal, it might be metaphorical (skulls, for instance, representing death), but it is accurate.

But Melisandre is so thoroughly brainwashed she can't comprehend what she quite literally sees.  

To quote Syrio Forel:

Just so.  And if all this reminds anybody of a problem in... another place... why, that's not too surprising.  

I was thinking it might be double entendre.Or it may not be.Somehow I think its both and that they are linked.That's for another discussion.

I agree with you, I think her sight is accurate but the interpretation  may be off.

I am just intrigued on why she is fixated on Stannis.I think she saw him or she heard something that made her think it was him.

Again I think she's off because she interpreted wrong,but she didn't just pull Stannis out of a hat.

 

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, quite right, except that the sword is forged in water rather than grass irrespective of it's moniker: the grass sea .  I think that's quite specific. 

I don't disagree that it's a poor substitute for water, but I still think it's a good fit for a "king reborn in the sea." 

In any case, if we're looking for people who are being "forged," you cited Tyrion and Jon, but I think Jamie could fit the bill as well. He was tempered and broken in 'water' by his imprisonment and the subsequent loss of his hand in the Riverlands, he was tempered (or is in the process of being tempered) in the heart of the lion at present with Cersei, and his Nissa Nissa 'tempering' is yet to come.

Though, I'm still clinging to some hope that my personal crackpot - that Ice will be reforged and tempered in Lady Stonheart's..err, heart, and 'drink' the fire that animated her and Beric to become Lightbringer 2.0 - will still come true. 
______

And, just as a bit of additional information about the Neverborn, since they were mentioned on the previous page, the 1993 synopsis isn't the only place where that term was in usage--it also appears in ARCs and early publisher blurbs for A Game of Thrones, with references to the Neverborn as "un-earthly demons of legend" who have returned in the north.

Edited by Matthew.

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I am just intrigued on why she is fixated on Stannis.I think she saw him or she heard something that made her think it was him.

Again I think she's off because she interpreted wrong,but she didn't just pull Stannis out of a hat.

Maybe Stannis pulled HER out of a hat. 

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2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I am just intrigued on why she is fixated on Stannis.I think she saw him or she heard something that made her think it was him.

I think you might be right.  And I like Matthew's idea in that area:

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

there also may be a self-fulfilling element, where the more she attempts to make Stannis look the part, the more he appears to superficially look like AA in her visions

Suppose in the timeframe of AGOT, Mel looked into her flames and saw Stannis waving around Lightbringer.  That's a thing she would have considered extremely significant, and since then, it's actually happened multiple times now, in fulfillment of her vision... exactly because she made it happen.

It also seems possible she saw Stannis wielding Lightbringer against Ramsay's forces in a blizzard, and concluded that this was AAR busy doing his thing in a Second Long Night.  Lots of ways she might have settled on Stannis in addition to the usual stuff about salt, smoke, comets, etc.

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