Black Crow

Heresy 201 and onward we go...

205 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know what to expect.  George puts everything together with crooked stitches. 

I like that analogy.

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

I did assume that book-Jon will end up coldhanded after a fashion.

I have seen this idea floated around by many for a while. Some with better arguements than others, but ultimately there is the Jon to ice connection. I agree to that.

Coldhands being different and also so detailed should mean something. I agree that he could be there to show the potential in another character. Is it Jon? Maybe, but I don't know that this is Jon's final death that will do it. I could be wrong (I heard that!), but I feel Jon has a second and final death that will lead to this and that Jon needs to learn something first while in Ghost/Weirwood anti-gravity suspension. He is the shield that guards the realms of men, so he could be a Coldhands replacement. Another "tooth" to Bran's raven's teeth guards. Jon has been putting a large amount of attention into archery training while he is LC of the Night's Watch. Sam even carries this training with him while on the Cinnamon Wind to Old Town.

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

  Although we still don't know how that happens.  I assume he will be 'Ghosted' for a while and that Ghost might be sacrificed to force Jon back into his icy body.  Does Ghost go with him? Is there less of Jon and some of Ghost in the mix.  

I am thinking we see Jon the berserker, which means bear-shirt, when he returns. A berserker is not the typhoon of destruction as we modern people suppose. It is more of a wild warrior that goes in to battle. They are said to act "beastly", but there is method to it. Let's just say that the idea of drawing power from a bear will mean something as well ;)

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26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know what to expect.  George puts everything together with crooked stitches.  I did assume that book-Jon will end up coldhanded after a fashion.  Although we still don't know how that happens.  I assume he will be 'Ghosted' for a while and that Ghost might be sacrificed to force Jon back into his icy body.  Does Ghost go with him? Is there less of Jon and some of Ghost in the mix.  

It seems to me that autonomous wights contain their own soul.

My guess is Jon may be both Ghost and UnJon simultaneously.  Jon's story arc may follow Winterfell's sword, Ice.  (Or the sword Gram of the Norse mythology, another sword broken in two).  

Jon's consciousness escaped into Ghost during the stabbing, but his soul (or perhaps just his shadow) remained with his body.  Jon is resurrected as a being consumed with his last thought: "stick them with the pointy end".  This is Jon's "widow wail".  While Jon's Oath keeper self resides within Ghost.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My guess is Jon may be both Ghost and UnJon simultaneously.  Jon's story arc may follow Winterfell's sword, Ice.  (Or the sword Gram of the Norse mythology, another sword broken in two).  

Jon's consciousness escaped into Ghost during the stabbing, but his soul (or perhaps just his shadow) remained with his body.  Jon is resurrected as a being consumed with his last thought: "stick them with the pointy end".  This is Jon's "widow wail".  While Jon's Oath keeper self resides within Ghost.

That's fantastic and suitably twisty.  If that's the case, then all bets are off. :commie: 

ETA:  Supported by Qyburn who has studied the matter.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all. "Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."

 

And Melisandre a practitioner:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me."

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

 

Which seems to be the Faceless Men's stock in trade.  Except that the essence or smell does not change.

 

Edited by LynnS

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

In another variation; Varamyr sitting in One-Eye is seen by wighted Thistle; even though she has no eyes, only pale blue flames. 

What it suggests is that skin-changers can see the soul of another.  Varamyr sees the soul of ice as pale blue flame.

 

 

I agree with BC this is interesting but for me the interest lay elsewhere.The fact that Thistle has no eyes and it is in fact the flame that allows her to see.Again as if someone was peering and operating from behind those blue flames.

4 hours ago, JNR said:

 

ETA: And if Arya encountered Nymeria while faced-up, Nymeria wouldn't be fooled for a second.

This I can see happening first.

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Now there's an interesting observation. The wights' eyes we learn from this aren't actually blue but rather reveal the blue flame within.

Beric on the other hand is animated by the [red?] flame passed by Thoros, while Mel's red eyes are lit by the red flame within her

Colour of the flames withstanding it goes toward the magic inherently being the same. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Where Arya acts in the play the 'Bloody Hand' in the role of Sansa at the Purple Wedding.  Arya dispatched Raff the Sweetling making her the Bloody Hand.  This also goes back to Jaqen H'Gar's gesture when he places his hand in the mouth of the wierwood while making his oath to carry out Arya's last wish.  Another 'bloody hand'.  

The GOHH smells death on Arya to go back to JNR's point about recognizing someone by their smell.  This happens with Jon and Bran as well:

Arya has also killed  or is complicit in killing and she says a nightly prayer of those she will kill or wishes dead. Arya is thinking about her kill list moments before the GOHH tells them of her dream.  She calls Arya 'Dark Heart' which suggests to me that she can see through Arya's disguises into her soul.

 

  

Another point about "smell.When Mel whammied Ghost didn't he start smelling her?I know most of us concluded that Mel somehow glamored herself like Jon.Maybe she made herself smell uniquely like him and masked Jon's smell?

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32 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The fact that Thistle has no eyes and it is in fact the flame that allows her to see.Again as if someone was peering and operating from behind those blue flames.

Agreed. Coldhands is also a cold wight, yet he has no burning blue behind his eyes--the burning blue signals the presence of the consciousness that is dominating the wights; Coldhands lacks the burning blue because he is free....well, free-ish.

Also of significance is not just the fact that Thistle is "seeing" without physical eyes, but that look she gives Varamyr--my read of Varamyr's final thought of "she sees me" isn't that the thing looking at him through Thistle is seeing One-Eye the wolf, it's seeing Varamyr within the wolf. "One skinchanger can always sense another."

IMO, Varamyr's chapter has some great foreshadowing language, for those inclined to link the CotF, weirnet, and the Others:
 

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He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice.

 

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Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow.

 

Edited by Matthew.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Agreed. Coldhands is also a cold wight, yet he has no burning blue behind his eyes--the burning blue signals the presence of the consciousness that is dominating the wights; Coldhands lacks the burning blue because he is free....well, free-ish.

Also of significance is not just the fact that Thistle is "seeing" without physical eyes, but that look she gives Varamyr--my read of Varamyr's final thought of "she sees me" isn't that the thing looking at him through Thistle is seeing One-Eye the wolf, it's seeing Varamyr within the wolf. "One skinchanger can always sense another."

IMO, Varamyr's chapter has some great foreshadowing language, for those inclined to link the CotF, weirnet, and the Others:
 

 

 

Word! That's a great way of putting it."Its seeing the Skinchanger within."

Bran himself identifued V6 as a Skinchanger to.

On the COTF and their link in all this,many discussions occurred on how much agency the greenseers have in all this?

If true as the worldbook says about the greenseers being the Shamans and wise men of the COTF; then it opens up the possibility that the relationship dynamics may not be as we think.

That question is opened to the thread on a whole.

Manipulated hostage turnned sympathetic,or a more skilled manipulator taking advantage of the beliefs of COTF?

Edited by wolfmaid7

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's fantastic and suitably twisty.  If that's the case, then all bets are off. :commie: 

ETA:  Supported by Qyburn who has studied the matter.

And Melisandre a practitioner:
 

 

 

Which seems to be the Faceless Men's stock in trade.  Except that the essence or smell does not change.

 

Yep.  Basically when a sword is broken in two, we have the half with the hilt, and the half with the pointy end.  There is foreshadowing for Ghost being the hilt, beginning back in AGOT:

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The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf’s head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes.

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“Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon’s boots. The direwolf’s red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. “Look. It’s you.”

And Ghost plays the part of "Oathkeeper" well.  First we have Ghost alerting Jon's Night's Watch brothers to Jon's presence during his attempt to desert in AGOT.  Then before Ghost and Jon are reunited in ASOS, Jon is seriously considering taking Stannis' offer of leaving the Night's Watch, becoming legitimized and taking Winterfell.  Ghost's return reminds Jon of his vows to the Night's Watch:

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Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms … though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder’s queen, but still … 

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb.  Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We’d find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragon-glass blade. A hunger … he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them.  

“Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.

Then we have the other end of the sword, the sword without a hilt, or the pointy end of the sword.  It is linked to sorcery:

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“Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

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“Dalla told me something once. Val’s sister, Mance Rayder’s wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

“A wise woman.” Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. “A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about.”

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“Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go.” Val put a foot into a stirrup, swung her leg over her horse’s back, and looked down from the saddle. “Do you remember what my sister told you?"

“Yes.” A sword without a hilt, with no safe way to hold it. But Melisandre had the right of it. Even a sword without a hilt is better than an empty hand when foes are all around you.”

So Jon's shadow self is being linked directly to Melisandre and fire.  In his dream where he slays his Night's Watch brothers, and his Stark brothers Jon is armed with burning red sword:

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Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.  As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

Melisandre provides Jon with a way to slay his foes, but also is tied in with his darker/shadow self, and his hunger for Winterfell.

Now go back to Jon's final moments:

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“Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …”

So Jon's final moments reflect both Robb calling out to Greywind at the Red Wedding before his death, and Catelyn need for vengeance as she was being killed. Jon gets split in two between Ghost/oathkeeper/hilt and UnJon/widow's wail/sword without a hilt/pointy end.

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21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Manipulated hostage turnned sympathetic,or a more skilled manipulator taking advantage of the beliefs of COTF?

I think very much the latter, with Kurz as our guide.

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On 2017-07-16 at 7:54 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So Jon's final moments reflect both Robb calling out to Greywind at the Red Wedding before his death, and Catelyn need for vengeance as she was being killed. Jon gets split in two between Ghost/oathkeeper/hilt and UnJon/widow's wail/sword without a hilt/pointy end.

Jon certainly qualifies as a sword split in two.  Then it becomes a matter of re-attaching the hilt.  We have the forging and re-forging imagery of the Azor Ahai legend and three attempts to forge Lightbringer.   Swords that split and shatter in water and the heart of a lion on the first two attempts.

It's curious that Tyrion also has a beserker dream where his mind is split in two.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

 

This comes after Tyrion has been shattered on the water; chased across the Narrow Sea by the bar sinister straight into the smoking sea.  

 

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

"Fourteen," the boy said.

"Fourteen, and you're taller than I will ever be. My legs are short and twisted, and I walk with difficulty. I require a special saddle to keep from falling off my horse. A saddle of my own design, you may be interested to know. It was either that or ride a pony. My arms are strong enough, but again, too short. I will never make a swordsman. Had I been born a peasant, they might have left me out to die, or sold me to some slaver's grotesquerie. Alas, I was born a Lannister of Casterly Rock, and the grotesqueries are all the poorer. Things are expected of me. My father was the Hand of the King for twenty years. My brother later killed that very same king, as it turns out, but life is full of these little ironies. My sister married the new king and my repulsive nephew will be king after him. I must do my part for the honor of my House, wouldn't you agree? Yet how? Well, my legs may be too small for my body, but my head is too large, although I prefer to think it is just large enough for my mind. I have a realistic grasp of my own strengths and weaknesses. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind … and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." Tyrion tapped the leather cover of the book. "That's why I read so much, Jon Snow."

 

In the above passage, Jaime represents a sword and Tyrion the hilt or instruments of body and mind.  They are both shattered in a sense when Jaime loses his sword hand and becomes an empty hilt; while Tyrion loses his mind on the Smoking Sea.

Tyrion also talks about strengths and weaknesses; something that Jon hears about from Donal Noye, when he discusses the Baratheons in relation to their metal:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"And his brothers?" Jon asked.

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

 

Jaime recieves the two-handed bastard sword:
 

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

"There is one." The armorer bent over the table and unfolded the bundle of oilcloth, to reveal a second longsword.

Tyrion put down Joffrey's sword and took up the other. If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night.

Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king's sword had only two. Joff's hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lions' paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions' heads for pommels.

 

And Jon, recieves it's close cousin:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

Awkwardly, Jon took the sword in hand. His left hand; his bandaged right was still too raw and clumsy. Carefully he pulled it from its scabbard and raised it level with his eyes.

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a "bastard sword." Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. "This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.

 

Something that Jon later calls a great bastard sword:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon II

He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf's-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.

 

The difference between a bastard and a great bastard being that one is the bastard of royal blood who is legitimized.  Something that Stannis has offered to Jon.  So perhaps, Jon is the true steel; lighter, sharper and more flexible than iron.   He is in part a sword without a hilt; ready for reforging before the hilt is re-attached.

The other question is whether or not Bran's vision of Jon is a bit foreshadowing:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother

Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

 

The 'memory of warmth fleeing' sounds akin to Jon's consciousness fleeing from his dying body into Ghost.  The loss of memory being one of Beric's complaints.

The question is whether the sword is forged in the body or the mind.  Melisandre might attempt  to use Jon's shadow making Jon her instrument, but in the end, the hilt must be re-attached. 

On the other hand, she knows about the assassination and advises him to keep Ghost close.  I'm guessing she will attempt a ritual similar to MMD's 'resurrection' of Drogo.  The difference being that MMD couldn't rejoin the Drogo's mind to his body because it had fled beyond her reach.

Edited by LynnS

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On 2017-07-16 at 2:37 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

I agree with BC this is interesting but for me the interest lay elsewhere.The fact that Thistle has no eyes and it is in fact the flame that allows her to see.Again as if someone was peering and operating from behind those blue flames.

I think we have to go East and look at Qarth.  The shadowlands may have more to do with Qarth than they do with Asshai.  Qarth is the oldest city left after the fall of the great empire.

The warlocks of Qarth are described as drinkers of shadows.  They consume the shades of those they trap in the palace of dust.

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"Then I must heed Pyat Pree, and go to the warlocks."

The merchant prince sat up sharply. "Pyat Pree has blue lips, and it is truly said that blue lips speak only lies. Heed the wisdom of one who loves you. Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give."

"I would not need to seek sorcerous help if my friend Xaro Xhoan Daxos would give me what I ask."

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Ser Jorah Mormont came up beside them. "What power can they have if they live in that?"

"Heed the wisdom of those who love you best," said Xaro Xhoan Daxos, lounging inside the palanquin. "Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give."

Aggo put a hand on his arakh. "Khaleesi, it is said that many go into the Palace of Dust, but few come out."

 

There are similarities between the cold wights and the undying who consume and are animated by the corrupted blue heart served on the stone table:
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A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

and saw Lord Mormont, naked and groggy from sleep, standing in the doorway with an oil lamp in hand. Gnawed and fingerless, the arm thrashed on the floor, wriggling toward him.

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

 Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. "Ghost!" he shouted.

 

The direwolf wrenched free and came to him as the wight struggled to rise, dark snakes spilling from the great wound in its belly. Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn.

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

Truly, the gods had heard Jon's prayer that night; the fire had caught in the dead man's clothing and consumed him as if his flesh were candle wax and his bones old dry wood. Jon had only to close his eyes to see the thing staggering across the solar, crashing against the furniture and flailing at the flames. It was the face that haunted him most; surrounded by a nimbus of fire, hair blazing like straw, the dead flesh melting away and sloughing off its skull to reveal the gleam of bone beneath.

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone. Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard's features. It was his father's skin that burst and blackened, his father's eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.

 

The Undying are described in a similar fashion; like dry bundles of kindling that melt like candles, only it Drogon who does the burning and Dany who is drowsy:
 
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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Three?" She did not understand.

. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

"I don't . . ." Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me."

...

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

 

We are also told the cold wights avoid the sun:
 

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

 

Sam speaks of the Others not as a singular entity but as many who raise the dead as their thralls.
 

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Dany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?"

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

 

Warlocks who drink shadows and reside in windowless houses using glass candles.
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Are you here?"

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

 

The cold wights seem to be a form of candle with their pale blue fire and thralls to some wizard or other.   In some ways they are akin to Robert Strong and animated shade under Qyburn's control.  A doll filled with sawdust in other words.  I suspect Qyburn and Quaithe both come from Qarth.

There is also this passage:

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

 

The blue flame and the voice suggests a glass candle and a wizard who is a drinker of shadows.  It's also someone that Varys knows or can identify as 'a certain man'.

 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think we have to go East and look at Qarth.  The shadowlands may have more to do with Qarth than they do with Asshai.  Qarth is the oldest city left after the fall of the great empire.

I agree.  Lots to say on this that i can't do on a phone , but yes- putting together something now that boils down to basically a Great War between the ancient GeoDawnians - that I think Qarth may be a remnant of - and Asshai.       It is similar to the popular theories and involves magic, but is focused more upon the lasting effects of empire building.  

Long story short, if the Undying are representatives of that old culture, I think they've seen their opportunity for a comeback...but so do the Red Lot, for related reasons in ancient days.  

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Posted (edited)

56 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I agree.  Lots to say on this that i can't do on a phone , but yes- putting together something now that boils down to basically a Great War between the ancient GeoDawnians - that I think Qarth may be a remnant of - and Asshai.       It is similar to the popular theories and involves magic, but is focused more upon the lasting effects of empire building.  

Long story short, if the Undying are representatives of that old culture, I think they've seen their opportunity for a comeback...but so do the Red Lot, for related reasons in ancient days.  

Again, I'm curious to hear your thoughts!  There is also this:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

Truly, the gods had heard Jon's prayer that night; the fire had caught in the dead man's clothing and consumed him as if his flesh were candle wax and his bones old dry wood. Jon had only to close his eyes to see the thing staggering across the solar, crashing against the furniture and flailing at the flames. It was the face that haunted him most; surrounded by a nimbus of fire, hair blazing like straw, the dead flesh melting away and sloughing off its skull to reveal the gleam of bone beneath.

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone. Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard's features. It was his father's skin that burst and blackened, his father's eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.

 

We've seen the man limned in flame a number of times.  First with Dany during MMD's ritual, the burning man and the great wolf dancing around the fire; then again with Melisandre who sees Jon limned in flame interchanging with the wolf.  The above passage strikes me as odd since Jon dreams of a man with his father's features limned in flame who is burnt to the bone. Does Eddard look like his father?  Of all the Stark relations we only know of Rickard Stark burned to the bone.  Could Rickard be the the equivalent of Craster? It would explain much.  With Eddard off at the Eyrie and Brandon also engaged elsewhere; who would know besides Benjen who ends up at the Wall and Walys Flowers who also disappears.

The only other Stark who may know if he could remember his dream:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

 

Starkcest is back on the table for me and another version of RLJ.  LOL

This may also explain why both Gilly and Lyanna are depicted as weirwoods weeping bloody tears.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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There is a half-formed thought that occurs to me on this business of the flames. There's an assumption, certainly so far as the cold wights are concerned, that the blue light represents possession by an unknown entity, whether that entity is a dark lord [sorry] or the weirnet or whatever, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the red flame.

What if both blue and red co-exist within the soul and when Thistle "sees" Varamyr, it is the cold side of Thistle's own soul that sees him. The absence of a red or blue flame shining through Coldhands' black eyes might then be explained by his being resurrected, but neither side of his soul being dominant.

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Besides red and blue fire, we also have a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

We have several references to pale fire. I am lost on this.  Not only don't I understand what this symbolizes,  I can't picture it.  Pale implies light color, so it could be almost white hot.  But pale means dim as well.  So we have a very bright, dim flame.

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Posted (edited)

The moon's an arrant thief, and her pale fire she snatches from the sun.

If this is a Shakespear reference,  I don't get it.

Edited by Brad Stark

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Its pale because its reflected rather than radiant light and arguably therefore a false light

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Besides red and blue fire, we also have a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Maybe it's a take on "to touch the light, you must pass beneath the shadow." Okay, that's a stretch.

I'm probably being overly simplistic and obvious with this, but Dany, Melisandre, or Cersei seem the most likely candidates for who the shadow would represent; Melisandre shares the shadow's physicality, its magical associations (red priestess and shadowbinder), and if BC is correct in interpreting the pale white flame as false, that might point toward Melisandre as well, with her glamours and her false Lightbringer. We might also see her dole out some false miracles within TWOW, if she does any 'healing' or resurrecting.

The association for Dany is based on Euron's publicly stated intent to make her his wife and use her as a path to the throne, and her general association with fire; the case for Cersei would be even more speculative, but it's my recollection that the shadow is sharing in Euron's cruel mockery of capering dwarves, and it may be that the burgeoning pyromania Cersei felt while burning the Tower of the Hand was foreshadowing.

Edit: To get even more symbolic with it, if Melisandre performs a resurrection at the Wall, is that her magic, or borrowed sorcery? "Reflected" light, coming not from within, but from the 'hinge,' or the old gods, or whatever.
 

Edited by Matthew.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There is a half-formed thought that occurs to me on this business of the flames. There's an assumption, certainly so far as the cold wights are concerned, that the blue light represents possession by an unknown entity, whether that entity is a dark lord [sorry] or the weirnet or whatever, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the red flame.

What if both blue and red co-exist within the soul and when Thistle "sees" Varamyr, it is the cold side of Thistle's own soul that sees him. The absence of a red or blue flame shining through Coldhands' black eyes might then be explained by his being resurrected, but neither side of his soul being dominant.

 

Assuming that Jon is protected by the Wall; then we have seen Melisandre evict Orell from his eagle, sacrificing the eagle in the process.  It seems she cast her own mind into the eagle and I suspect she will do the same with Ghost-John to force him back into his body.  So attaching a fiery hilt (the mind) to the palestone sword (the body).  Fire encased in ice, or frozen fire.   So neither the blue or red flame is inhaled by the lungs to the heart.  It's Jon's mind that is wreathed in flames not his body.

The other possibility is that Sam will wake the sleeper, with the broken horn and bind his brother with strange sorcery.

Edited by LynnS

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There is a half-formed thought that occurs to me on this business of the flames. There's an assumption, certainly so far as the cold wights are concerned, that the blue light represents possession by an unknown entity, whether that entity is a dark lord [sorry] or the weirnet or whatever, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the red flame.

What if both blue and red co-exist within the soul and when Thistle "sees" Varamyr, it is the cold side of Thistle's own soul that sees him. The absence of a red or blue flame shining through Coldhands' black eyes might then be explained by his being resurrected, but neither side of his soul being dominant.

An interesting thought, but I'm not sure it aligns in practice; GRRM's Time interview seems to suggest that the nature of the wights reflects the magic that is animating them, rather than any personal quality within the soul of the resurrected. Were it otherwise, you'd think we'd see more variation in those raised north of the Wall.

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Posted (edited)

I've been trying to get on here for like 2 days now.:wacko:

@Black Crow concerning Cold hands.Thistle's wightification kinda needs looking at.She was alive in bad shape but alive before she was killed by the temp.I think whereas she was able to resist a weaken V6 from taking her;she couldn't resist The Cold.

What if Cold hands did,and was able to reclaim his body after an attempted wightification?

As far as the Red lot goes we need to consider a couple of things.

Raising the dead ain't there thing.What happened with Beric completely threw Thoros.He did a funerary ritual that they have done many times before.It was a send off not an intent to raise.

Which brings me to the connections that the author chose to make.

Faceless men,weirnet and red lot have one figure emerging and that figure looks awfully like the dead man with one eye and impaled by weirwood roots.

A man behind a curtain is starting to look rather good.

 

Edited by wolfmaid7

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